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Worries about the skill injectors, and the future of the game.

First post
Author
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#121 - 2016-02-17 11:54:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Memphis Baas wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
65% 15% 20% 5% 1% 20% 80%


Do you have a source for all these statistics?
Even if there is a source, the numbers will have been misinterpreted to suit an agenda; Icantchucks previous signature is a prime example.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
#122 - 2016-02-17 11:59:58 UTC
Imalia Bloodlines wrote:

Why is everyone talking about newbie spending a lot and not utilizing properly his SP, is this your argument?

What heppens when powerful player buys a lot of SP for a lot of alts and expands his power by 100%? He pushes back player who can not afford it. BAM! Please continue to tell us this is not pay to win, I will be listening


i can honestly say being a relative newbro that i have been fighting veterans all my EvE career to date. if it's 1v1, well ill fight him and most probably die. if there are 2/3/4 of him then ill do what i always do, warp out. how is that different from now?


Al Nomadi wrote:
["Look, I played less than you, but you could not even scratch my armor. Ha-ha, it is because you sucks!" That will be result of many duels in rookie systems now...


i don't know if you're joking or not, but dueling with newbros as in very new (as implied with rookie systems), then you should probably quit or stick to carbearing.

i know i suck at 1v1, but im fairly confident that i can defeat a newbro with level 5 and deadspace/officer fit condor with my tristan/incursus or even atron with my well earned tricks.



Just Add Water

Avvy
Doomheim
#123 - 2016-02-17 12:11:43 UTC
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
The thing that bothers me most about the new skill trading system is:we now have a way to grind directly for skillpoints: Farm missions/incursions, sell LP store stuff, mine, buy skill injectors. Grindable skillpoints in this kind of game are a no-no.


I'd prefer to grind for skill points than grind for PLEX to fund an account.

You can grind in the real world, buy PLEX, sell PLEX, buy sp injectors, happy face. No need to grind in-game if you don't want to.

Alternatively just add it to the skill queue and wait.

Grinding is optional.


Then you say you have to grind to be competitive. Which is like most games, levelling in other games is grinding xp.

Before it would take a player a long time to be able to compete with those that had played for a long time. You would also need multiple accounts to truly be able to compete with them. Now time isn't so much of an issue, although it still takes time to learn to play the game.
Sneaky Little Bastard
Doomheim
#124 - 2016-02-17 12:27:22 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Almost 3000 words. A pity that your great work will be locked for ranting soon.


I don't really think this is a rant to be honest, and many of these points were discussed internally before the feature went live, or was fully fleshed out.

I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong, and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile


/facepalm.... I hope CCP gave you a bonus for that crap.
James Tiberius Kirk
State War Academy
Caldari State
#125 - 2016-02-17 12:29:57 UTC  |  Edited by: James Tiberius Kirk
Pay 2 Win is a weak argument to begin with. Everyone keeps screaming bigger ships or buying characters doesn't make you better at the game, but when it comes to skill injectors it is somehow unfair advantage. It's just a knee jerk reaction.

However, undeniable fact is that something intangible, but still a very important part of EVE, has died with skill injectors. This isn't about being a bitter vet, or bragging rights. Skill points have forever lost some of their value and significance. It is only natural to have a negative reaction to this.

On the whole though, I think injectors are a right step, but it is a bit of a treating the symptom and not the cause issue. Just like learning skills, just like attributes and attribute implants.
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#126 - 2016-02-17 12:45:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Yonis Kador
FearlessLittleToaster wrote:
Yonis Kador wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
something about freshness and legs up


What bothers me most is watching veterans who have devoted 8, 10, 13 years to EVE offer countless testimonials that this change hurts their game and for the most part, are being laughed out of the room. People tell them "adapt or die," "HTFU," and "if you don't like it, leave." My favorite is: "this game isn't for everyone." Right. The guy who's been here 13 years isn't "right" for EVE? Isn't it at all worrisome to anyone that we're shedding some of our most devoted players on a gamble that new players "with the attention span of Daffy Duck" will replace them and stick around? What kind of bedazzlements will need to be introduced to keep that kind of player interested? Can that kind of player be retained for 8, 10, 13 years?

I think it changes everything.



I have been here seven years, and I think this is a positive change. I am far from alone in this among my veteran peers. This really does change very little; I'm sad you feel your skill training was cheapened by the introduction of injectors, but if your game experience is defined by being able to sit in a shiny hull after waiting X number of months to do so... you may not be right for Eve. Its not about sitting in the ship. Its about what you do with it.


I made my first character 8 years ago and I'm still here. The assertion that very little has changed is ridiculous on it's face though. A 3 day old character was able to do what no one has ever done in the history of EVE. Obviously "something" has changed or that wouldn't have been possible.

I wouldn't say anyone's game experience is "defined" by waiting, but I would maybe say that the wait contributed to a sense of accomplishment RE a particular goal (especially a long train) and the overall investment into a particular character for some people. And it is those small hurdles, achieving those minor goals, that has driven retention since launch. They're gone now.

That's changed.

I'm beginning to suspect that castle-builders have more issues with sp trading than castle-kickers. If you're a kicker, juicy targets and instant adrenaline rushes with no waiting must sound awesome. Sign me up! But if you're the guy who spent 10 years training an army and building your own little empire, who rarely pvps, it might suck more for you that you've got competition now who started yesterday. All that time you invested to get where you are, empire-wise, was made meaningless. So RP may be a factor. But this has to suck for anyone who values time invested in their characters - no matter the profession or the reason.

Anyway, from my perspective, the importance placed on time varies wildly and can't be painted away with generalizations.

Plus, it hardly matters. Right or wrong, if we lose a significant percentage of our vets, it'll be tough to call this a win.

Might be a win for CCP... but not for EVE.

YK
Faraboot
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#127 - 2016-02-17 12:59:00 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile


This part got me confused a bit.

You seem to forget that a 300 million SP character, trained for pvp, will have certain number of skills that will grant him bonuses, which will propagate to every single ship he sits in as well as the skills that will max out any module he puts on any ship.

So if we keep things in the confinement of a pilot that knows what he's doing but has 2 skill points vs a 300 mill sp pilot that knows nothing about eve, then yes, your analogy and faith in this system stands correct.

Your analogy is wrong however, because for every ship in eve the rules are the same - rules of piloting the ship and using its modules, UI commands/icons, engagement rules (lock, shoot) are the same for every one, and every ship.
The fact that F-1 car is very different from Ford Focus 1.4 has nothing to do with differences in eve, other than yes, there are bigger, faster, better ships then other, even ones built for a specific purpose (like the F-1 car is).

Both pilots in your analogy will undock, align, orbit, keep at range, lock and shoot using same methods, same UI,.. this can't be said for the two cars like F-1 and a regular car. They're started, driven and controlled in different ways, thus one can not expect to know how to drive an F-1 car, no matter if he has a drivers license.

However, if one would have an equivalent of a drivers license in eve, meaning he would know the fundamentals of flying a ship and using his modules, your rifter pilot would be in a world of hurt very fast.

Not only that a 300mil SP pilot, skilled for pvp has an advantage on the field before a single shot fired, every part of eve has the same problem now. 300mil sp character skilled in industry has and edge over a low sp one, traders, builders,.. every way you look at it, a 300mil sp player will have an edge over a low sp players! That's the core part of eve isn't it?

Your argument only works in a specific situation, a low sp player but with high eve skills vs a high sp but with low eve skill player, and arguably only in pvp situation. Good luck building that super with a toon from 2003 and 2 sp.

What all this means my dear Falcon is that you've opened a shortcut to things we're supposed to reach the hard way, with every 5% bonus of something to reflect to at least 1% increase in my chances to do something better or faster or more of then someone without those 5% of something. This way one can pump a character in a heartbeat with sp, and only has to learn to play the game, or the part of the game that interests him/her while I had to learn and wait for ages for that logistics to 5 or jumpfuckingdrive to 5, all while failing to quickly rep someone or just can't reach that system for a drop, cause it's out of range for my blop with jdc4.

Now, I don't really know how I feel about all this.
I can't say that I don't like the idea that one of my kids someday may find eve a game for them to play, and could have the option of having a character that can instantly fly most of the ships in the game if they put a certain amount of money in it.

On the other hand, I couldn't care less, since I'm kinda doing my thing anyway.

Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#128 - 2016-02-17 13:03:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Shallanna Yassavi
Avvy wrote:
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
The thing that bothers me most about the new skill trading system is:we now have a way to grind directly for skillpoints: Farm missions/incursions, sell LP store stuff, mine, buy skill injectors. Grindable skillpoints in this kind of game are a no-no.


I'd prefer to grind for skill points than grind for PLEX to fund an account.

You can grind in the real world, buy PLEX, sell PLEX, buy sp injectors, happy face. No need to grind in-game if you don't want to.

Alternatively just add it to the skill queue and wait.

Grinding is optional.


Then you say you have to grind to be competitive. Which is like most games, levelling in other games is grinding xp.

Before it would take a player a long time to be able to compete with those that had played for a long time. You would also need multiple accounts to truly be able to compete with them. Now time isn't so much of an issue, although it still takes time to learn to play the game.

Plexing alts means you still have to plan and have patience, both of which are very important in this game. With injectors, faster ISK very directly translates into faster skills, which means grinding to something-like-level.
Now you can pay to make that grind go away. It's why, even though I've bought quite a bunch of ye olde Lucasarts games, I won't touch Star Wars Force Commander. A friend explained that for a few dollars, you can make a 45-minute build happen instantly. That one stays on the shelf.

The stuff in this game which scales linearly with the number of alts you throw at it (PI, industry) is part of what makes keeping alts so powerful, and keeps people buying them.
Edit: Farming SP that way is another thing which will scale linearly with the number of alts you throw at it.

A signature :o

Avvy
Doomheim
#129 - 2016-02-17 13:07:05 UTC
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
The thing that bothers me most about the new skill trading system is:we now have a way to grind directly for skillpoints: Farm missions/incursions, sell LP store stuff, mine, buy skill injectors. Grindable skillpoints in this kind of game are a no-no.


I'd prefer to grind for skill points than grind for PLEX to fund an account.

You can grind in the real world, buy PLEX, sell PLEX, buy sp injectors, happy face. No need to grind in-game if you don't want to.

Alternatively just add it to the skill queue and wait.

Grinding is optional.


Then you say you have to grind to be competitive. Which is like most games, levelling in other games is grinding xp.

Before it would take a player a long time to be able to compete with those that had played for a long time. You would also need multiple accounts to truly be able to compete with them. Now time isn't so much of an issue, although it still takes time to learn to play the game.

Plexing alts means you still have to plan and have patience, both of which are very important in this game. With injectors, faster ISK very directly translates into faster skills, which means grinding to something-like-level.
Now you can pay to make that grind go away. It's why, even though I've bought quite a bunch of ye olde Lucasarts games, I won't touch Star Wars Force Commander. A friend explained that for a few dollars, you can make a 45-minute build happen instantly. That one stays on the shelf.

The stuff in this game which scales linearly with the number of alts you throw at it (PI, industry) is part of what makes keeping alts so powerful, and keeps people buying them.


The vast majority of players and potential players are not Ironbank, so they still have to plan where to use the sp from the sp injectors.
Avvy
Doomheim
#130 - 2016-02-17 13:11:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Faraboot wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile


This part got me confused a bit.

You seem to forget that a 300 million SP character, trained for pvp, will have certain number of skills that will grant him bonuses, which will propagate to every single ship he sits in as well as the skills that will max out any module he puts on any ship.

So if we keep things in the confinement of a pilot that knows what he's doing but has 2 skill points vs a 300 mill sp pilot that knows nothing about eve, then yes, your analogy and faith in this system stands correct.

Your analogy is wrong however, because for every ship in eve the rules are the same - rules of piloting the ship and using its modules, UI commands/icons, engagement rules (lock, shoot) are the same for every one, and every ship.
The fact that F-1 car is very different from Ford Focus 1.4 has nothing to do with differences in eve, other than yes, there are bigger, faster, better ships then other, even ones built for a specific purpose (like the F-1 car is).

Both pilots in your analogy will undock, align, orbit, keep at range, lock and shoot using same methods, same UI,.. this can't be said for the two cars like F-1 and a regular car. They're started, driven and controlled in different ways, thus one can not expect to know how to drive an F-1 car, no matter if he has a drivers license.

However, if one would have an equivalent of a drivers license in eve, meaning he would know the fundamentals of flying a ship and using his modules, your rifter pilot would be in a world of hurt very fast.

Not only that a 300mil SP pilot, skilled for pvp has an advantage on the field before a single shot fired, every part of eve has the same problem now. 300mil sp character skilled in industry has and edge over a low sp one, traders, builders,.. every way you look at it, a 300mil sp player will have an edge over a low sp players! That's the core part of eve isn't it?

Your argument only works in a specific situation, a low sp player but with high eve skills vs a high sp but with low eve skill player, and arguably only in pvp situation. Good luck building that super with a toon from 2003 and 2 sp.

What all this means my dear Falcon is that you've opened a shortcut to things we're supposed to reach the hard way, with every 5% bonus of something to reflect to at least 1% increase in my chances to do something better or faster or more of then someone without those 5% of something. This way one can pump a character in a heartbeat with sp, and only has to learn to play the game, or the part of the game that interests him/her while I had to learn and wait for ages for that logistics to 5 or jumpfuckingdrive to 5, all while failing to quickly rep someone or just can't reach that system for a drop, cause it's out of range for my blop with jdc4.

Now, I don't really know how I feel about all this.
I can't say that I don't like the idea that one of my kids someday may find eve a game for them to play, and could have the option of having a character that can instantly fly most of the ships in the game if they put a certain amount of money in it.

On the other hand, I couldn't care less, since I'm kinda doing my thing anyway.




I'm confused too, months back I've been saying sp is important and those that had high level characters kept saying it wasn't, it was the skill of the player that counts.

The real reason a lot of those players with higher level characters that object, don't like sp injectors because they now realise that they could have more competition now than they used to get.
Thorian Baalnorn
Perkone
Caldari State
#131 - 2016-02-17 13:29:57 UTC
When i was young, Vets use to joke about carebear tears. Seems the shoe is on the other foot now. I havent seen this much crying over something in ages.

- If you think Eve is F2P or P2W, then you seriously need to get out more. Eve isnt close to either.
- If you think this is all a scam so CCP makes more money. Well increasing revenue is a benefit to the system, but you have to remember CCP puts a lot of money back into game development. It doesnt always work out well, but there is no other game company that reinvest such a large portion of their revenue back into game development. Most game companies produce some cookie cutter fast and easy to make new title to make another payday while letting the current games die off.

- If you think SI is going to affect your gameplay, you are right it is. How it affects your gameplay is 100% up to you. You can either utilize the new tools CCP gave you to play this game and utilize the younger characters that can now fly the stuff that you do gangs with... or you can cry and whine about it on the forums like a 5 yr old that didnt get their way. Eve has always been a game where you have to embrace and utilize change.

- If you think new players are going to be a significant threat to you now, you may be right. But that means you havent learned very much over your eve career. If you require newbros to feed upon in pvp then you probably arent very good at pvp as you are having to use the same advantages that you are currently crying about newbs now getting in order to have an advantage. I guess if you want to kill other players youre just going to have to learn how to use those ships you fly.

Vets always liked how eve was "hardcore" well that is until it became "hardcore" for them, then they cry like a WoW player trying out Eve. "Now a newb can kill me!" Oh no! As was so common of phrase for the vets to tell the noobs over the years, guess you are going to have to....

"LEARN TO PLAY"

Sometimes you are the squirrel and sometimes you are the nut. Today, you are the nut and the squirrel is hungry.

Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#132 - 2016-02-17 13:32:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Avvy wrote:
Faraboot wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile


This part got me confused a bit.

You seem to forget that a 300 million SP character, trained for pvp, will have certain number of skills that will grant him bonuses, which will propagate to every single ship he sits in as well as the skills that will max out any module he puts on any ship.

So if we keep things in the confinement of a pilot that knows what he's doing but has 2 skill points vs a 300 mill sp pilot that knows nothing about eve, then yes, your analogy and faith in this system stands correct.

Your analogy is wrong however, because for every ship in eve the rules are the same - rules of piloting the ship and using its modules, UI commands/icons, engagement rules (lock, shoot) are the same for every one, and every ship.
The fact that F-1 car is very different from Ford Focus 1.4 has nothing to do with differences in eve, other than yes, there are bigger, faster, better ships then other, even ones built for a specific purpose (like the F-1 car is).

Both pilots in your analogy will undock, align, orbit, keep at range, lock and shoot using same methods, same UI,.. this can't be said for the two cars like F-1 and a regular car. They're started, driven and controlled in different ways, thus one can not expect to know how to drive an F-1 car, no matter if he has a drivers license.

However, if one would have an equivalent of a drivers license in eve, meaning he would know the fundamentals of flying a ship and using his modules, your rifter pilot would be in a world of hurt very fast.

Not only that a 300mil SP pilot, skilled for pvp has an advantage on the field before a single shot fired, every part of eve has the same problem now. 300mil sp character skilled in industry has and edge over a low sp one, traders, builders,.. every way you look at it, a 300mil sp player will have an edge over a low sp players! That's the core part of eve isn't it?

Your argument only works in a specific situation, a low sp player but with high eve skills vs a high sp but with low eve skill player, and arguably only in pvp situation. Good luck building that super with a toon from 2003 and 2 sp.

What all this means my dear Falcon is that you've opened a shortcut to things we're supposed to reach the hard way, with every 5% bonus of something to reflect to at least 1% increase in my chances to do something better or faster or more of then someone without those 5% of something. This way one can pump a character in a heartbeat with sp, and only has to learn to play the game, or the part of the game that interests him/her while I had to learn and wait for ages for that logistics to 5 or jumpfuckingdrive to 5, all while failing to quickly rep someone or just can't reach that system for a drop, cause it's out of range for my blop with jdc4.

Now, I don't really know how I feel about all this.
I can't say that I don't like the idea that one of my kids someday may find eve a game for them to play, and could have the option of having a character that can instantly fly most of the ships in the game if they put a certain amount of money in it.

On the other hand, I couldn't care less, since I'm kinda doing my thing anyway.




I'm confused too, months back I've been saying sp is important and those that had high level characters kept saying it wasn't, it was the skill of the player that counts.

The real reason a lot of those players with higher level characters that object, don't like sp injectors because they now realise that they could have more competition now than they used to get.


Competition is ok, will only bring more people to market, explorers to hunt on gatecamps in low or null, more miners in belts, or more characters running missions in high sec.
Avvy
Doomheim
#133 - 2016-02-17 13:39:07 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:


Competition is ok, will only bring more people to market, explorers to hunt on gatecamps in low or null, more miners in belts, or more characters running missions in high sec.



Competition is ok


I've seen one guy in the past, mining whole belts by himself with a few alts.

What happens if 7 more people start to do the same thing, the belts will become depleted fairly fast.


That's why competition can be bad for those that have a huge advantage.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#134 - 2016-02-17 13:43:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Avvy wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:


Competition is ok, will only bring more people to market, explorers to hunt on gatecamps in low or null, more miners in belts, or more characters running missions in high sec.



Competition is ok


I've seen one guy in the past, mining whole belts by himself with a few alts.

What happens if 7 more people start to do the same thing, the belts will become depleted fairly fast.


That's why competition can be bad for those that have a huge advantage.

I remember that whole systems were stripped off some time ago. Imagine a fleet of miners that strip whole systems. Every miner would like to be a part of it. You know, like herrings. Or every flock, there is defence mechanism in it.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#135 - 2016-02-17 14:29:42 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
65% 15% 20% 5% 1% 20% 80%


Do you have a source for all these statistics?


The percentiles of players by character age is from here:

https://www.themittani.com/features/new-age-skill-injections

The rest where just examples to the point that financially speaking, losing veterans is not as serious (in the short term) as losing new players.

Apparently the original source of the graph by CCP Rise is reddit (where else Roll ) so I'm NOT going to dig for it.
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
Apocalypse Now.
#136 - 2016-02-17 15:42:19 UTC
Algarion Getz wrote:
All these "2% bonuses" add up. For example, gunnery skills at level 5 give you:

controlled bursts: -25% cap need for turrets
gunnery: +10% fire rate
motion prediction: +25% tracking speed
rapid firing: +20% fire rate
sharpshooter: +25% optimal
surgical strike: +15% damage
trajectory analysis: +25% falloff

weapon specific skill: +25% damage
weapon specific skill for T2: +10 damage + access to T2 guns and ammo


Having max or high skills makes winning a fight much easier. They guy who spends cash on skill injectors definitly has an advantage over the guy who can't spend extra cash.


You're making some assumptions there.

First that competitive players will not find a way to use the exact same tool that the other person is. Yes, it's possible someone actively chooses to not use injectors but if they're a vet, they know what they are doing and what they are in for. Will they die more? Possibly, but it's not for certain, they could be good enough at the game that they don't need the boosts to win, or are already flying ships that are capable of nullifying advantages like this.

Second, that this changes some kind of balance. Only newer pilots will feel this disparity and they don't necessarily think they'll survive against a vet to begin with. I know I have low hopes of surviving PvP. I'm fully aware my ships and skills just aren't up to the task, so dead is dead, it's my job not to get in the fight to start with... runaway!

Third, that pilots won't adjust by flying in company more. Those numbers are nullified by two non-injector pilots taking on the same target. In the Vietnam war, the North Vietnamese army knew that the West held every possible advantage technology wise, so it took 4 or more of their soldiers to counter one of the Wests. However, they fielded those numbers and held out long enough for the West to toss in the towel. My read of EVE history is about the same for Red/Goon Swarm. Technically inferior but superior in numbers. Look who's around today.

The pilots most impacted by this change are the newbies, both good and bad. They are far worse off at start since they don't know the game and have a much higher learning and earning curve to meet now. Once they get the game well enough to earn the ISK to buy injectors, then it becomes a good thing as they can rapidly train to meet the challenge you spell out.

I'm not so certain it will be too much of a change for the shiny newbies as they don't even know what hit them when they get hit by a highly skilled pilot or just a good PvP'er. Dead is dead.

For the Vets... you should know how to deal with earning enough ISK to play the game you want. This should be a non-issue and should help you get your ALT's up to speed faster and cheaper overall.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#137 - 2016-02-17 15:59:52 UTC
Algarion Getz wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Reiisha wrote:


Skills in EVE are not analogous to levels in other games. They are core to the concept of the game itself. There is no max level in EVE (or at least, it should not be attainable), and there's no reason why there should be one. The skill system in EVE forces the player to learn some core lessons about the game, how it works and how it wants you to think. It teaches you the values of patience, planning and the consequences of your choices at a very personal level, to your character.




The skills only open up possibilities as well as giving an advantage as in the accumulation of percentages (i.e. 2% more damage from a particular weapon type).

Other than that the skills are unimportant. It's a sandbox, being a sandbox it's what you do with the skills that is important.

All these "2% bonuses" add up. For example, gunnery skills at level 5 give you:

controlled bursts: -25% cap need for turrets
gunnery: +10% fire rate
motion prediction: +25% tracking speed
rapid firing: +20% fire rate
sharpshooter: +25% optimal
surgical strike: +15% damage
trajectory analysis: +25% falloff

weapon specific skill: +25% damage
weapon specific skill for T2: +10 damage + access to T2 guns and ammo


Having max or high skills makes winning a fight much easier. They guy who spends cash on skill injectors definitly has an advantage over the guy who can't spend extra cash.


And you can grind ISK and buy a max gunnery skilled character off the bazaar.

But he did it just with RL money!!!!!

Before SP trading, he coudl sell PLEX and buy an alt with the same gunnery skills.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#138 - 2016-02-17 16:16:32 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Almost 3000 words. A pity that your great work will be locked for ranting soon.


I don't really think this is a rant to be honest, and many of these points were discussed internally before the feature went live, or was fully fleshed out.

I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong, and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile


Pretty much speaks my mind. Skills are a gateway to upper tech and at most offer small incremental boosts to players willing to devote time or, now, money towards their progress. The very worst thing skill trading is guilty of is potentially giving players less reason to utilize the normally slow pace of skill training to pace themselves. During conventional trainer, active players can garner more experience in their profession while their training continues at its pace, steadily unlocking further access to more options within that trade only after the player has had at least some sufficient time to test and hone their skill with practical experience. You couldn't just hop in a carrier on day one, so you might as well learn the ropes flying frigs while you wait for the skillpoints to build up...cheaper to learn through trial and error with frigs versus caps anyways, right?

Experience is both the most brutal and very best of tutors. Nothing else teaches better or more ruthlessly. A warrior can teach his craft to another which in turn can give him a better chance in a fight, but at some point he has to see battle to both test and better understand what he has learned. In much the same way, skillpoints can offer a leg up on one's gameplay performance and open the door to more and better options to getting the job done, but personal experience and know-how is what more often makes or breaks that performance in nearly every way. Ships, weapons, and technology in Eve are varied enough that players can do far more with good piloting than relying simply on the numbers to win the day for them, and an especially creative and resourceful pilot can be far more terrifyingly dangerous than any racial ship bonus.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

Saelyth
STK Scientific
The Initiative.
#139 - 2016-02-17 19:37:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Saelyth
I've posted a large bit of this before, but it still seems relevant. I pretty much agree with Falcon on this one, but either way...

TL;DR: It already exists in another fashion.

There are some things to remember here that it seems a lot of people are missing.

SP is already being traded at "zero risk" through the sale of full characters every day
Pure and simple, the Character Bazaar in the forums hosts thousands of full character sales. Some of these characters have a "colorful history," some of them have never been outside Jita save their first trip there from in their noobship. People have whole accounts and theorycrafted training queues dedicated to doing this already.

This really isn't fundamentally different than the existing Character Bazaar
People are already paying real-money to buy Characters/SP. What functional or fundamental difference is there between paying X Plex or Y Dollars for a "Perfect Interceptor Pilot" or whatever flavor character than paying for the equivalent SP in smaller pieces? In both cases, person A has dedicated time and money to create the original SP and person B wants to buy it.

There are actually benefits to this proposed approach
The functionality proposed here is a way to provide, accommodate, and bring additional exposure or awareness to a system that has existed for a very, very long time already. While there's likely no official poll on the topic, I would wager a guess that most "new" players are unaware of the Character Bazaar altogether. By creating a mechanic IN-GAME and on the market, everyone will be able to readily see it and choose to take part if they wish to. Further, you retain ownership of your name, race, gender, and history, to boot. Just because someone else in the past had to stomach buying a character with some unfortunate aspect to it doesn't mean everyone else needs to suffer the same.

The notion that they didn't earn the SP is baseless
On that logic, one could say that neither did anyone that ever purchased a character on the Bazaar since its inception. Let's say I decided today to buy a new 80m SP character. Well, there's 80m SP I just got for cash that as far as I'm concerned just came out of thin air (in my perspective).

With the falloffs and high skill points among veterans, there's not much to gain/exploit
When I originally wrote this, we were looking at a 10% efficiency where it would really be more cost-effective to buy an older, higher SP character. This has been scaled down a bit, but it's still really not an issue. Allowing veteran, high SP pilots to do this would really only mean they're spending money to train up a little faster. I myself don't particularly want to spend double or more toward my monthly costs for what is in my opinion, not even relevant for me anymore. More skill points? Okay, where should I put them? Ships I'll likely never buy or fly? I've already maxed all of the core ships I like to fly, what is another 250,000 SP going to do for me? An extra 500k? An extra million? I could throw them in titans, maybe super carriers or bombers, but my playstyle and preference will likely never see me in any of those ships. Will there be people that do it? Probably. Is this going to make a significant difference? No, it really won't. I don't feel there is much difference between a 150m character and one with 150.5m. I could take it further, too; there's really no functional difference in that character and one with 200m. Your skills all max at 5. They can't be any better at any given task than a low SP character who only maximizes for said task. The other guy buying out 5s in Dreadnaughts, Carriers, and whatever else is irrelevant when you're facing them in their Sleipnir. The other guy buying out a bunch of interceptor skills is irrelevant when you're facing their Sabre. On the other side, the guy who is actually flying what he paid into isn't any different than the guy that just flat out bought the "perfect whatever pilot." It's already a factor of EVE. We already deal with it.

====

What's the concern, then? Are people enraged at the idea that some low to mid-range character can pick up someone else's SP(resources) and add them to their own at a whim? Is that really any different than me selling the above theoretical 80m SP character and buying a new one at 100m instead? Why should I, or anyone, have to jump through additional steps to accommodate the same exact result? In every case, it always comes down to "Person A spent time building what Person B wants and is willing to sell it."

Personally, my feelings on the matter are that in the grand scheme of things are that if this can keep new players active (or bring ex-players back) in the EVE universe, this is ultimately better for everyone.
Dalketh
DRRUSSEL
#140 - 2016-02-17 20:43:37 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:



Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.


Smile


All due respect but you are wrong Falcon. Buying and instantly applying skillpoints 'changes very little'? Bullcrap. I can't believe you even said that.

And no it doesn't give 'new players a leg up'. It gives 'rich players' an instant advantage over the poorer players. Instant advantage.

Perhaps not the true definition of 'pay to win', but close enough to smell really foul.