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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Refitting in space and a new fatigue timer

Author
Melek D'Ivri
Illuminated Overwatch Group
#1 - 2016-02-12 18:31:49 UTC
Quote:
It's not simply about carriers refitting from tank to damage and back, or Macharials swapping autocannons and artillery, or ships fitting warp core stabs mid-combat, or switching racial jammers, or capitals fitting shield, armor and hull tanks to vastly increase their EHP. All of these issues are simply symptoms of the same underlying issue and if we were to deal with each of them individually more related problems would sprout up in their place.

We are not married to any one implementation for enforcing commitment in fitting choices, and we are very open to hearing feedback from the community about how you think this problem should be solved. However we do believe that it must be solved. Our currently proposed solution is that you can’t refit with a weapons timer. Meaning, if you are aggressing a player, or assisting a player ship who is aggressing a player, you can't refit for 60 seconds.


So easy solution to fixing people refitting over and over or dealing with the aggression timer - just make refitting a fatigued activity. It's like driving down the road, and while you are trying to drive your Corvette a crew of of mechanics suddenly starts rebuilding your touring car into a drag strip racer. While you are driving it. I would personally imagine that such an activity would strain my physical and mental capacities to try to drive it during this time, so wouldn't refitting from a shield tank, to armor tank, to hull tank, to warp stability fits all be pretty taxing on a Capsuleer? At least for lore sake this fits rather nicely in my humble opinion.

Provide examples?

Refit 1 in space
30 seconds before next refit, 10 minutes fitting fatigue timer

Refit 2 in space
2 minutes before next refit, 30 minute fitting fatigue timer

Refit 3 in docked
No penalty added, current timers running continue as they are

Refit 4 in space
5 minute until next refit, 2 hours fitting fatigue timer

So on, so forth. Essentially pilots will probably get a single "free" refit for tactical reasons during a PVP fight most likely, until either their target, Mobile Depot, or themselves are destroyed, maaaaaybe get a second refit if it's small gang warfare. The idea is that during a massive fleet engagement you make it steadily harder to try to refit during the fight, but also you give the enemy ships greater incentive to focus, since they will know that ship is increasingly getting less able to adapt to incoming fire.

Just my 2 cents, doesn't hardly affect me at all, but I'd take a fatigue timer over a set time period any day of the week. Times are not obligatory, just an idea of how it steadily increases like jump fatigue (just not quite as steep obviously).

Whew, that was draining. Just got some forum post fatigue. Gotta wait before my next post!
MIKE Commander
Setenta Corp
#2 - 2016-02-12 19:39:22 UTC
I like this idea. It is way better then the current proposed weapon timer.
Estella Osoka
Perkone
Caldari State
#3 - 2016-02-12 20:14:18 UTC
No. You are just going to have to grow a pair and risk those precious capitals now.
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2016-02-12 20:20:33 UTC
Hell no. What CCP proposed is brilliant. You need to live with the consequences of fitting your ship correctly.

How it is atm and has been in the past is a complete and utter joke.
Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2016-02-12 20:56:19 UTC
I think if this was brought up sooner it could've gained traction. It's a good idea, but the current change will have a great affects.
Loradan Illstari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6 - 2016-02-12 21:11:40 UTC
No, no more swiss army tank slowcats. You get to live with the decision you made when you clicked the undock button. All those extra hardeners in your cargo hold will just have to wait until your aggression timer cools down. There is just as much skill and thought going into fitting a ship before a battle as there is fitting a ship during a battle. That's what everyone seems to miss. Showing up with a properly fit ship for the occasion takes just as much thought and effort as refitting for the occasion, and if the occasion changes well then so be it. Make up for it with piloting. Not extra modules.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#7 - 2016-02-12 21:32:09 UTC
CCP have already introduced extra modules which remove most of the need for extra refitting such as scriptable hardeners which mean you can respond to a Titan dropping on you to resist it's DD.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#8 - 2016-02-12 22:14:58 UTC
as a triage pilot i can say i was worried when they said combat refitting would be a no no, but with the new mods they are giving us i see this as a much better step forward particularly having cap boosters and being able to scrip hardeners.

will i miss the refitting gameplay? yes its one of the most enjoyable parts of flying a carrier however for the game i think this is much better and will give CCP the ability to better balance capitals
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#9 - 2016-02-13 03:48:32 UTC
No worries just only fly minmatatar and ancillery boost away..

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2016-02-15 01:20:32 UTC
Any simpleton can figure out that it's a good idea to swap to EM hardeners when you start taking laser fire, but it takes skill to balance whether it's more important to keep shooting or to stop for a while so you can refit.

Capital piloting will take MORE skill than before, not less.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Mai Ling Ravencroft
Duragon Pioneer Group
#11 - 2016-02-15 04:21:59 UTC
I really wonder sometimes about some of the players that comment on the forums... trolls or just no clue.

The removal of combat refitting is only a good idea if you are a major supplier of BS and Cap ships. Being able to refit in the middle of combat is one of the defining features of Eve.

It is the one feature that often makes or breaks a lot of fights. It is one of the ways Rooks & Kings held superiority for so long, even when they were becoming massively out numbered in battles. It is how many of the "elite" cap pilots have earned the title. It is what makes battles of nearly equal numbers, often have very one sided results.

The only thing removing this does is make it so that spies report the standard fits of enemies, and then report last minute changes, so that we load counter dmg types.

This will also mean that the already horrible idea of the FAX, which will be the primary targets in cap fights, will either have to fly "max tank/crap rep" or die in a fire, before anything needed remote reps. Nothing like debuting a hull that is already disliked before it has even been released, and gimping it straight away. Any Triage pilot, with any combat experience knows, if you can't refit, you die. The Triage button, is basically you accepting you are about to get your insurance payment. Refitting is the only way a Triage pilot has any chance to survive the 5 min timer during any real combat.

Moving from Caps, even the fights like Machs w/ Nestors, only enhance combat. Having been in more BS fights than I care to remember, and never being in a Mach/Nestor fleet mind you. I found them unbelievably boring. Wow, lock a called target, press F1, lock new target, press F1 when told, repeat till dead or no more enemies. This only ever changed with carrier support, or the Nestor. Which btw, is the only saving grace of the Nestor, as it was shunned until the idea of Mach/Rattles refitting on the fly.

The only reason to want to limit/remove combat refitting, is for gankers and manufacturers to enjoy knowing that good pilots will no longer have an edge based on skill and fast thinking. This will lead to even more cookie cutter fits, and brainless piloting.

At the end of the day, what we will see the most of, is nothing... less kills, less ships of value leaving dock, and less quality game play. Larger groups will keep pushing everyone from their borders, using smaller cheaper ships in larger numbers, and smaller groups trying to hang on with less and less to fight, because all the whales no longer wanna come out to play.

So, if CCP wants to kill of everything larger than Cruisers, than this is the way to go. Cause large ship game play is as much about rapid changes in a fight as it is anything else. Removing one of the most unique features in Eve, is removing one of the few reasons to play an outdated, overly complex, graphically unappealing game.

Oh and btw, the idea that a card game and Eve are basically the same is a nice comparison, but many of those games have cards that let you swap out cards for others. Which utterly kills your point
Lugh Crow-Slave
#12 - 2016-02-15 10:43:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Mai Ling Ravencroft wrote:

This will also mean that the already horrible idea of the FAX, which will be the primary targets in cap fights, will either have to fly "max tank/crap rep" or die in a fire, before anything needed remote reps. Nothing like debuting a hull that is already disliked before it has even been released, and gimping it straight away. Any Triage pilot, with any combat experience knows, if you can't refit, you die. The Triage button, is basically you accepting you are about to get your insurance payment. Refitting is the only way a Triage pilot has any chance to survive the 5 min timer during any real combat.




to be fair ccp did say they wanted to bring back the mentality of if you fly triage your going to die


i know i still remember when the 10 minute module was called the suicide button


also as far as combat refining goes for FAX it will be the least effected as you are normally not repping when you are doing it
(it will still be a major blow to it and it will be much harder but this isn't a total removal)
Mai Ling Ravencroft
Duragon Pioneer Group
#13 - 2016-02-17 04:47:13 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Mai Ling Ravencroft wrote:

This will also mean that the already horrible idea of the FAX, which will be the primary targets in cap fights, will either have to fly "max tank/crap rep" or die in a fire, before anything needed remote reps. Nothing like debuting a hull that is already disliked before it has even been released, and gimping it straight away. Any Triage pilot, with any combat experience knows, if you can't refit, you die. The Triage button, is basically you accepting you are about to get your insurance payment. Refitting is the only way a Triage pilot has any chance to survive the 5 min timer during any real combat.




to be fair ccp did say they wanted to bring back the mentality of if you fly triage your going to die


i know i still remember when the 10 minute module was called the suicide button


also as far as combat refining goes for FAX it will be the least effected as you are normally not repping when you are doing it
(it will still be a major blow to it and it will be much harder but this isn't a total removal)


Don't get me wrong, I am not sitting here, upset I will loose a cap in a fight. While I have only lost 1 before, it was something I laughed about rather than cried over.

I think having fights, where both sides feel the loss is fine. What I don't care for though, is what CCP is trying to bring to the table. They are trying to sell this as a good, healthy thing for the game, but as is ever so common with them ignoring the players when we try to tell them it will cause less fighting than more.

They think that just because both sides will take solid losses, that the smaller guys are gonna be willing to take on the bigger dogs, with the thought that they at least get to say they bloodied the big dogs nose. This is pure tripe. What is really going to happen is some of the small guys will fight each other, and the big boys will sit on the porch, wishing that someone has the balls to show up and fight.

The big groups in EVE can SRP massive losses, we can replace a full fleet of capitals in mere weeks, or less if needed. We can afford to replace supers and even titans if it was "for the cause", something that the smaller groups can't do. Which would make you think that we'd have no issue dropping a suicide fleet on an equal sized force, but this is EVE, where you don't fight fair, and you don't accept even losses.

One of the reasons the big groups have solid SRP's and offer ISK rewards to FCs and all the other good perks, is cause we don't waste the ISK we have, rather we invest it in sound tactics and principles. In the Imperium, we through ISK around like it is nothing, having replacement programs, incentives and all sorts of things. Heck we even replace your ships that die in solo and small gang PvP that had nothing to do with any grand plans or fleet actions. Yet, even so, you don't see us (much) jump headlong into suicide fights just cause we have nothing to loose. Why? Because being stupid, and just wasting resources doesn't make the game fun, winning fights, controlling space and having a solid reputation is much more valuable.

CCP doesn't get that, they don't get that even if being killed in space and popping back into station, with everything you had, would still not cause us to go out and fight more. We fight for pride, glory and respect. To prove our skill and abilities. Removing features that require skill, quick thought and planning, only reduce the difficulty of the game, making fights less epic and much more stale.

With this change, spies can kill any form of prep for a fight, and not being able to change on the fly, only means there is even less reason to engage the enemy. If you think I am wrong, just understand I have been on many fleet battles subs and caps, and just before we started a fight, we knew the last minute changes to tank, guns and ammo the enemy made. I come from a group that has played the spy game for so long, that our enemies know that we will know what they know, just as soon as they do.

So, I ask you... Why would you wanna get into a major fleet fight, knowing that your skill means nothing, your plans are compromised and even if you win, you'll be hurting just as bad as those you beat?
Estella Osoka
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2016-02-17 16:21:53 UTC
Capitol ship combat is going to change dramatically. Removing combat refitting is a good thing as it makes it more meaningful. Use of capitols will require more strategic thinking. People need to wait and see how this shakes out because no one knows how the new capitol modules will change the meta.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#15 - 2016-02-17 17:16:29 UTC
Mai Ling Ravencroft wrote:


With this change, spies can kill any form of prep for a fight, and not being able to change on the fly, only means there is even less reason to engage the enemy. If you think I am wrong, just understand I have been on many fleet battles subs and caps, and just before we started a fight, we knew the last minute changes to tank, guns and ammo the enemy made. I come from a group that has played the spy game for so long, that our enemies know that we will know what they know, just as soon as they do.


At that point, you will still be able to refit more or less freely since no-one should have a weapon timer. Once the fight has started, the way of thinking will be different. You will have to wait the pro and cons of breaking engagement for a potential benefit gained from a refit. It's won't be a go to choice that only cost the presence of refitting service in range and the module in cargo. The end deal is not being un able to refit but adding a "cost" to refitting. Just like de-agressing to jump a gate or dock.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2016-02-18 02:23:10 UTC
Mai Ling Ravencroft wrote:
With this change, spies can kill any form of prep for a fight, and not being able to change on the fly, only means there is even less reason to engage the enemy. If you think I am wrong, just understand I have been on many fleet battles subs and caps, and just before we started a fight, we knew the last minute changes to tank, guns and ammo the enemy made. I come from a group that has played the spy game for so long, that our enemies know that we will know what they know, just as soon as they do.

So, I ask you... Why would you wanna get into a major fleet fight, knowing that your skill means nothing, your plans are compromised and even if you win, you'll be hurting just as bad as those you beat?

How does skill mean nothing at this point? You can stick with your guns (literally and figuratively) and keep the fit you prepared earlier, or you can change it at the last minute. There's a bit of skill involved in responding to the type of damage your opponent is throwing at you, but an even greater amount of skill involved in predicting ahead of time what fit will be good against your opponents while also finding a way to thwart their spies by getting your fleet fit against theirs while you trick theirs into being fit into something other than against yours. And there's much stronger rewards to that victory when they have to wait a whole minute after engaging to fix their defect.

It's not less skill based. The reason nullseccers are whining is because there will be more capital ship losses. Skill will still play into the new meta, and especially strongly as the ones who are most able to adapt to the new setup will shine most brightly.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."