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Add CAPTCHAs for high-frequency trading
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Droidster
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2016-02-14 18:14:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Droidster
I assume using bots to adjust market prices is against the TOS for EVE. I notice that there is 3rd party EVE market bot software widely advertised. One such software advertises "as long as you do not use it constantly 24-hours you will not be caught". Whether this is true or not, I have no idea, but I do have a suggestion of how to limit the viability of such cheating.

My suggestion is to use CAPTCHAs to verify that the operator is human after a large number of market adjustments in a limited time.

For example, if the player makes 50 adjustments in less than 3 hours, they would have to do a CAPTCHA. So, every 50 adjustments per 3 hours, another captcha. Players that repeatedly fail CAPTCHAs or ignore them, can then be referred to an employee for further scrutiny as a possible botter.

Note that this will not prevent all market botting. For example, if a player just deals in one or two commodities, then they will be able to stay under the CAPTCHA limit and never get tested. The threshold I recommend above will just catch people who are using bots to manage many commodities. I think this is ok, because, speaking as a trader, I am not concerned about a guy who uses a bot to deal in one or two commodities. What I find annoying are the few bad eggs that are running bots on 50 or 100 different commodities. My suggestion is designed to identify and block those bad eggs.

Any normal, non-trading player will never be affected by this, and those human traders who do happen to be so intense that they are doing dozens of adjustments per hour, should have no objection to doing a CAPTCHA once every 50 adjustments. In fact, speaking as a trader, I would LOVE to do CAPTCHAs... so long as I know the botters have to do them too.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2016-02-14 18:17:38 UTC
But bots are better at those things than people are.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#3 - 2016-02-14 19:39:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Danika Princip wrote:
But bots are better at those things than people are.


I feel like this was also the first psst the last time this idea came up





EDIT
Well any way of you want all the reasons this is a bad idea then here

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#4 - 2016-02-14 20:05:15 UTC
CAPTCHAs are as effective at stopping bots as a bucket is at emptying an ocean.

Droidster your idea is nothing original, has been discussed to death in the past and is otherwise just plain bad, the only thing it'd succeed at is pissing off market traders.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#5 - 2016-02-14 21:39:48 UTC
If you see such software, report it to CCP with links. They will then investigate it and then find a way to detect everyone using that particular piece of software, then mass ban them all.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#6 - 2016-02-14 22:03:20 UTC
Droidster wrote:
I notice that there is 3rd party EVE market bot software widely advertised. One such software advertises "as long as you do not use it constantly 24-hours you will not be caught". Whether this is true or not, I have no idea, but I do have a suggestion of how to limit the viability of such cheating.




All of this sounds like something someone who uses bots (or, at least, a 'curious' individual) might say.


Terrible idea, it's the complete antithesis of a pleasurable user experience - market trading is a feature of this internet spaceships game, not a forum anti-bot gatekeeper.

As Nevyn said, the best thing to do with suspected bot users is to report them and let CCP sort them out. It's their job; not yours, and the fact that you suggest inflicting something as horrid as a CAPTCHA on those 99% of players who play legitimately is nothing short of appalling, really.

A far better overall idea, instead, would be to limit posting in F&ID to those characters not in NPC starter corporations - especially if they have been there for more than a decade. Separate the wheat from the chaff, or at least make a good first stab of it.

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#7 - 2016-02-14 22:06:17 UTC
Additionally, a peculiar feature of Droidster threads is that - generally - he drops the OP, leaves people to rail against it, and doesn't return to reply to any of the responses within...



...kind of like a Forum Trollbot, set to autopilot.

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
Iain Cariaba
#8 - 2016-02-14 23:15:39 UTC
Perfect example of an idea that falls under the category of "I don't like someone else's profession, nerf it." Sure, it might have an effect on botters, but on the other hand, it will make it far, far more annoying for those who makema career out of market shenanigans.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2016-02-15 02:00:26 UTC
In-game CAPTCHAs are for tacky, cheap, free-to-play games that have an average per-person playspan of less than 1 month.


EVE Online is a highly polished pay-to-play massively multiplayer sandbox experience with an average per-person playspan of over 1 year.




It would be like if a five star hotel offered you a mosquito netting to protect your bed.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Droidster
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2016-02-15 02:11:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Droidster
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
If you see such software, report it to CCP with links. They will then investigate it and then find a way to detect everyone using that particular piece of software, then mass ban them all.


That's a nice theory, but if that worked then there would not be any bots. Considering that there are multiple commercial ACTIVE companies selling EVE market bot software, whatever is being done right now, whatever it is, is not effective.

Just to reiterate what I said above, the CAPTCHA policy can be set so that it would not affect any genuine human player, so the objections that it would be "annoying" are not accurate.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#11 - 2016-02-15 02:45:45 UTC
Droidster wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
If you see such software, report it to CCP with links. They will then investigate it and then find a way to detect everyone using that particular piece of software, then mass ban them all.


That's a nice theory, but if that worked then there would not be any bots. Considering that there are multiple commercial ACTIVE companies selling EVE market bot software, whatever is being done right now, whatever it is, is not effective.

Just to reiterate what I said above, the CAPTCHA policy can be set so that it would not affect any genuine human player, so the objections that it would be "annoying" are not accurate.


A max skill trader can have 305? trade slots.

Calling this **** idea "annoying" is only inaccurate in that it's a gross understatement.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Iain Cariaba
#12 - 2016-02-15 02:48:26 UTC
Droidster wrote:
Just to reiterate what I said above, the CAPTCHA policy can be set so that it would not affect any genuine human player, so the objections that it would be "annoying" are not accurate.

Apparently you've never dealt with large scale market shenanigans. You're likely posting this because someone .01 isked you three or four orders. It happens, doesn't mean it's a bot. Unless I'm extremely busy, I alt-tab over to my jita alt every 5 minutes and .01 isk all the orders I have up. Lots of people do this, it's part of the player driven market.

Just because you're mad over someone, possibly several someones, moving your sell order off the top of the list doesn't make a valid justification for this particular terrible idea. Forcing people with 300+ market orders to solve a bullshit capcha every time they change one, just because you got butthurt, would be irresponsible of CCP.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#13 - 2016-02-15 03:02:14 UTC
Yeah let me just enter the captcha 300 times every time I update my market orders, and make it as laggy as market was today.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Droidster
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2016-02-15 03:33:40 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Droidster wrote:
Just to reiterate what I said above, the CAPTCHA policy can be set so that it would not affect any genuine human player, so the objections that it would be "annoying" are not accurate.

Apparently you've never dealt with large scale market shenanigans. You're likely posting this because someone .01 isked you three or four orders. It happens, doesn't mean it's a bot. Unless I'm extremely busy, I alt-tab over to my jita alt every 5 minutes and .01 isk all the orders I have up. Lots of people do this, it's part of the player driven market.

Just because you're mad over someone, possibly several someones, moving your sell order off the top of the list doesn't make a valid justification for this particular terrible idea. Forcing people with 300+ market orders to solve a bullshit capcha every time they change one, just because you got butthurt, would be irresponsible of CCP.


I have been a trader for 12 years. I know the difference between a bot and a human. I am not "mad".

If you actually read my suggestion, it says one captcha every 50 changes, not "every time they change one".
Iain Cariaba
#15 - 2016-02-15 06:06:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Iain Cariaba
Droidster wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Droidster wrote:
Just to reiterate what I said above, the CAPTCHA policy can be set so that it would not affect any genuine human player, so the objections that it would be "annoying" are not accurate.

Apparently you've never dealt with large scale market shenanigans. You're likely posting this because someone .01 isked you three or four orders. It happens, doesn't mean it's a bot. Unless I'm extremely busy, I alt-tab over to my jita alt every 5 minutes and .01 isk all the orders I have up. Lots of people do this, it's part of the player driven market.

Just because you're mad over someone, possibly several someones, moving your sell order off the top of the list doesn't make a valid justification for this particular terrible idea. Forcing people with 300+ market orders to solve a bullshit capcha every time they change one, just because you got butthurt, would be irresponsible of CCP.


I have been a trader for 12 years. I know the difference between a bot and a human. I am not "mad".

If you actually read my suggestion, it says one captcha every 50 changes, not "every time they change one".

Oh look, back to your standard "you don't agree with me cause you didn't read it" argument. Roll

Ever stopped to consider that the reason no one ever agrees with your suggestions is because they're bad ideas, not because they didn't read them?

As for 50 adjustments in less than 3 hours, seriously? You're just providing more evidence that you don't actively trade on the market. With 300 orders up, I can do 50 adjustments in 10 minutes.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#16 - 2016-02-15 06:19:25 UTC
Droidster wrote:


I have been a trader for 12 years. I


No you haven't.

You have a 12 year old character, perhaps, but it's pretty obvious that you don't have 12 years of experience with any aspect of Eve. Hell, 12 months would be a stretch.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Iain Cariaba
#17 - 2016-02-15 07:39:33 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Droidster wrote:


I have been a trader for 12 years. I


No you haven't.

You have a 12 year old character, perhaps, but it's pretty obvious that you don't have 12 years of experience with any aspect of Eve. Hell, 12 months would be a stretch.

Maybe 12 hours, 12 days would be a stretch. 12 months would test the tensile strength of carbon nanotube fibers.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#18 - 2016-02-15 08:04:38 UTC
Droidster wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
If you see such software, report it to CCP with links. They will then investigate it and then find a way to detect everyone using that particular piece of software, then mass ban them all.


That's a nice theory, but if that worked then there would not be any bots. Considering that there are multiple commercial ACTIVE companies selling EVE market bot software, whatever is being done right now, whatever it is, is not effective.

Just to reiterate what I said above, the CAPTCHA policy can be set so that it would not affect any genuine human player, so the objections that it would be "annoying" are not accurate.

So, how would you do that? How does the Captcha bot decide whether you are a human or a bot? I am very active with my orders, I update them every 5 minutes or even more frequent if I have several orders for the same item in the market. I check the market in Hubs every couple of minutes. How would your captcha be able to discern me from a bot who does the same thanks to its programming (random time intervals for market checks, random time intervals for order updates, etc.)? Your captcha idea cannot do that, under no circumstances and especially not with the limited resources that are available to CCP.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Droidster
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2016-02-15 13:10:36 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Droidster wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
If you see such software, report it to CCP with links. They will then investigate it and then find a way to detect everyone using that particular piece of software, then mass ban them all.


That's a nice theory, but if that worked then there would not be any bots. Considering that there are multiple commercial ACTIVE companies selling EVE market bot software, whatever is being done right now, whatever it is, is not effective.

Just to reiterate what I said above, the CAPTCHA policy can be set so that it would not affect any genuine human player, so the objections that it would be "annoying" are not accurate.

So, how would you do that? How does the Captcha bot decide whether you are a human or a bot? I am very active with my orders, I update them every 5 minutes or even more frequent if I have several orders for the same item in the market. I check the market in Hubs every couple of minutes. How would your captcha be able to discern me from a bot who does the same thanks to its programming (random time intervals for market checks, random time intervals for order updates, etc.)? Your captcha idea cannot do that, under no circumstances and especially not with the limited resources that are available to CCP.


As I said above it is easy to set the policy so that even high-frequency traders are lightly affected. This can be done by either limiting the CAPTCHA to a certain number of adjustments (every 50 or 100 adjustments done in less than 2 or 3 hours). Even if you are doing hundreds of adjustments every day, that would be only one CAPTCHA every two hours. If you are sitting there making hundreds of order adjustments, doing just one CAPTCHA is not a burden, especially if it eliminates bots because that means you will have to make fewer adjustments since you no longer have to compete against bots.

The whole idea here is to decrease the work you have to do, not increase it.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#20 - 2016-02-15 13:18:13 UTC
Droidster wrote:
especially if it eliminates bots because that means you will have to make fewer adjustments since you no longer have to compete against bots.

The whole idea here is to decrease the work you have to do, not increase it.



except it wont get rid of bots soooo

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
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