These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

[March] Stasis Webifier Tiericide

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#21 - 2016-02-12 01:31:55 UTC
I like the changes and the addition of missing faction webs. I know its not terricide but something that has bugged me about how webs on frigs effect ships up to capitals the same. I like the new grapple webs that are being introduced but here is an idea I have on how to make these scale better with ship sizes.

So I was thinking about webs and how they currently apply the same effect from the top down. So a Frig can web a carrier for the same amount as it could a frig. That doesn’t seem right to me. So I thought how would I change it that is easy to understand and scale across the ship sizes to effectively provide a more realistic progression. My thought was to use a scale of 0-5 as the challenge so if n=n then full web effects apply and also if n=n-1 full bonuses still apply but if n=n+1 then only 50% of the web strength would apply. So with that theory if a frig webbed a cruiser with a t2 web its speed would be reduced by 30% not the 60% currently but if a battle ships webbed a frigate it would only be able to apply the full 60% it would not get bonuses because it is 2 ship sizes larger than the fig. I also think this a better way to implement web immunity on supers as the diminishing returns effect scales well but allows titans to web other titans and apply full web effects. It would also allow ships to have a potentially higher point level then their class for example an assault frigate would have a base of 1 not 0 so when a frig webbed an assault frig it would only receive 30% reduction in speed instead of the full amount. This would be the same for HACS. I think it would also work to give ships with a web bonus a +1 to their strength also so the hyena, rapier, vindicator etc. would be able to effect ships 1 class above the normal progression. So a Vindi could web a Capital ship for full webs as it would be Vindi=2 +1 for being a web bonused ship vs a carrier=3 so then the formula would be 2+1=3 and it would apply full webs but if it tried to web a super carrier it would only be able to apply 50% of its web strength.
This is how I see the base hull classes
0) frigs, shuttles, pods, destroyers
1)cruisers, industrial transports, mining barges, battlecruisers,
2)battle ships, orca
3)carriers, freighters, dreadnaughts, faxs
4) supercarriers
5) titans
Burton UnIncSR
Applied Anarchy
The Initiative.
#22 - 2016-02-12 01:39:56 UTC
I really don't see the need to play with the webs and not really sure i like the idea of the shadow serp being brought up to the same level as the Fed Navy. the Fed Navy and The true Sansha both had their special quality's and now there will be options to replace both with different webs
Alexis Nightwish
#23 - 2016-02-12 02:47:49 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We had earlier proposed converting officer webs over to the new Stasis Grappler group, but after listening to your feedback we've decided to do a more traditional tiericide pass on the modules and add the word "Heavy" to their names to hint towards their unusually high fitting costs.
That's rare. Let me jot this down in my Notebook of Times the Devs Listened.

*blows off a cm of dust*
*cough* *cough* *cough* *cough*
Oh my last entry is when you didn't add rig slots to freighters, but went with low slots instead! Nostalgic!



Feedback part:
Webs aren't something that needed to be tiericided. I cannot tell you how many times I've had a fit where I needed just one more CPU so I swapped from a Fleeting to an X5. Now all choice will be removed. I will simply use the ****** new Fleeting on every ship with a web because the T2 costs too much CPU for too little gain.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Aaril
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#24 - 2016-02-12 02:58:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Aaril
I hope that the Fleeting type will have a greatly increased drop rate. With the across the board CPU nerf that occurred today, Fleeting type webs will be in high demand.

Edit: Also, 57.5% has been the standard percentage for YEARS now. Please change the meta items to 57.5%. Just to match what they are today.
Mad Abbat
Talon Swarm
#25 - 2016-02-12 08:13:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Mad Abbat
There is no choice.

if you can fit a t2 -> go for t2.
but usually, you can't fit a t2, so you are forced to go for compact, and save 5 cpu to use on smt more usefull than 0,3 cap/sec.

at least make enduring/T2 OH like a boss, adding velosity factor on top of the range factor, to make it worth extra 5/10 CPU and cap usage.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#26 - 2016-02-12 14:55:13 UTC
and how is this change anyhow new player friendly?

now only option for low skill players is to use faction web to get 60% web.

oh! i understand you want to sell skillpoints for new players.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#27 - 2016-02-12 15:02:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
shouldn't T2 webs require level 5 skill?.... as all T2 ships/mods should .. such inconsistency ..

P.S. allowing officer webs too stay as Heavy webs.. is just pathetic pandering..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#28 - 2016-02-12 16:47:27 UTC
Any consideration given to the balance of LP stores here? Because it doesn't look like it.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2016-02-12 18:30:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
No scoped web? Come on.

Scoped Web:
11km optimal
-50% speed

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Irya Boone
The Scope
#30 - 2016-02-12 21:44:45 UTC
the federation is pleased.

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB
Tyranis Marcus
Bloody Heathens
#31 - 2016-02-13 16:29:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyranis Marcus
Would you post the cap use per second?

Do not run. We are your friends.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2016-02-13 23:42:07 UTC
Tyranis Marcus wrote:
Would you post the cap use per second?

Going down the list:

1
0.4
1
1.2

1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1

3
3
3
3

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#33 - 2016-02-14 05:49:47 UTC
at least one of the 3 faction webs that are the same should have lower cap requirement in exchange for cpu or range

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#34 - 2016-02-14 06:42:19 UTC
This proposal fundamentally underestimates how important the web strength stat is.

The faction webs that wind up at 55% may as well be deleted from the game, they are that much weaker than the tech 2 web.

On an unbonused hull, it's the difference between 40% speed and 45% (single web), or, if my in-head maths on stacking penalties is right, 18% of base speed (dual 60% web) and 22.5% base speed (dual 25% web).

For turrets, that's a big difference in how hard a one-size-smaller ship is to hit.



I strongly feel that 55% bonuses on faction webs should be increased to at least 58%.


As another point, if the Vindicator bonus didn't exist or had slightly lower numbers (such as 8% per level or 8.5% per level) or was calculated differently (applying a 15% per level modifier to ship speed on ships hit by a web that stacked multiplicatively with webs), you could produce deadspace 62% webs and officer 64% webs.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2016-02-14 07:59:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
This proposal fundamentally underestimates how important the web strength stat is.

The faction webs that wind up at 55% may as well be deleted from the game, they are that much weaker than the tech 2 web.

It is a big deal but it's not always important. Sometimes range is much more important.

There are a lot of clearly superior or clearly inferior faction webs, as some (like Federation Navy and True Sansha, also Shadow Serpentis after the change) have both high strength and high range, while others have both low strength and low range. Since there are so many faction web iterations, it would be nice to add more variability to them all, as well as price adjustments. Would be neat to have weaker faction webs that were more affordable.


Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
As another point, if the Vindicator bonus didn't exist or had slightly lower numbers (such as 8% per level or 8.5% per level) or was calculated differently (applying a 15% per level modifier to ship speed on ships hit by a web that stacked multiplicatively with webs), you could produce deadspace 62% webs and officer 64% webs.

It is an important point that the web strength bonus is too strong--it gets 90% speed reduction with a single T2 web. There should be deadspace webs with a higher speed reduction value that the Serpentis ships must use to achieve these very high speed reduction amounts.


Here's a diminishing return calculation that could be used for webs:
Instead of doing 50/100, 60/100, 75/100, 90/100
You do 50/150, 60/160, 75/175, 90/190
You can simply adjust the base values on the webifiers so that they have the same slowing amount as before:
T1 webifier is 100/200 (50% unbonused)
T2 webifier is 150/250 (60% unbonused)
T1 webifier with max Serpentis ship bonus is 150/250 (60%--down from 75%)
T2 webifier with max Serpentis ship bonus is 225/325 (69.2%--down from 90%)

You could boost the Serpentis bonus to 20% per level to compensate:
T1 webifier with max Serpentis ship bonus is now 200/300 (67%--down from 75%)
T2 webifier with max Serpentis ship bonus is now 300/400 (75%--down from 90%)
Now it's a lot closer to what it used to be and it's way more powerful than the base web values, but it's not super overpowered anymore.
So let's add deadspace webs:
C-Type: 195/295 -- 66.1% (Serpentis: 390/490 -- 79.6%)
B-Type: 260/360 -- 72.2% (Serpentis: 520/620 -- 83.9%)
A-Type: 345/445 -- 77.5% (Serpentis: 690/790 -- 87.3%)
X-Type: 450/550 -- 81.8% (Serpentis: 900/1000 -- 90%)
These could have only slightly more range than T1/T2, and there could be an alternative deadspace set with only slightly more strength than T2 but more range than faction.

Serpentis Deadspace Webs
Core C-Type: 195 strength, 10.5km range
Core B-Type: 260 strength, 11km range
Core A-Type: 345 strengh, 11.5km range
Core X-Type: 450 strength, 12km range

Blood Raiders Deadspace Webs
Corpus C-Type: 160 strength, 15km range
Corpus B-Type: 170 strength, 16km range
Corpus A-Type: 180 strength, 17km range
Corpus X-Type: 190 strength, 18km range



As long as I'm writing up stasis webifiers, let's do faction webs. Here I will try to make as few changes as possible, but I'm going to increase variety so that no two webs are alike and the player has as many options as possible to choose from.

Khanid Navy: - - - - - 16Tf . // . 5Gj . // . -60% (150) . . . . // . 12,000m . // . -50% LP store cost
Dread Guristas: - - - 16Tf . // . 1Gj . // . -52.5% (110.5) . // . 13,000m . // . +100% drop rate
Caldari Navy: - - - - - 16Tf . // . 5Gj . // . -55% (122.2) . . // . 13,000m . // . -50% LP store cost
Dark Blood: - - - - - - 22Tf . // . 6Gj . // . -57.5% (135.3) . // . 13,000m . // . +100% drop rate
Shadow Serpentis: - 20Tf . // . 4Gj . // . -57.5% (135.3) . // . 14,000m . // . standard drop rate
Federation Navy: - - - 25Tf . // . 5Gj . // . -60% (150) . . . // . 14,000m . // . standard LP store cost
True Sansha: - - - - - 25Tf . // . 5Gj . // . -55% (122.2) . . // . 15,000m . // . standard drop rate
Domination: - - - - - - 16Tf . // . 3Gj . // . -50% (100) . . . . // . 15,000m . // . standard drop rate
Republic Fleet: - - - - 18Tf . // . 5Gj . // . -52.5% (110.5) . // . 15,000m . // . standard LP store cost

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Tyranis Marcus
Bloody Heathens
#36 - 2016-02-14 10:34:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyranis Marcus
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Tyranis Marcus wrote:
Would you post the cap use per second?

Going down the list:

1
0.4
1
1.2

1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1

3
3
3
3


Hmm. Thanks. I assume you were able to see the whole table? The image didn't show up as a link for me, so I was stuck with only the first columns, couldn't see cycle times.

Do not run. We are your friends.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2016-02-14 11:01:10 UTC
Tyranis Marcus wrote:
Hmm. Thanks. I assume you were able to see the whole table? The image didn't show up as a link for me, so I was stuck with only the first columns, couldn't see cycle times.

You can see the whole table by right-clicking it and selecting 'View Image', but the table doesn't have a cycle time column anyway. It doesn't really need one, as all webifiers have (and will continue to have) a 5s cycle time, including the officer webs.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#38 - 2016-02-14 16:28:21 UTC
Hey folks. Thanks for the feedback so far!

We've made one adjustment to the plan so far, moving the Dark Blood tackle modules into the same stats group as True Sansha. This will generally mean an increase in fitting costs and an increase in range. As you guys pointed out, this better matches the Blood Raider faction traits.

I also want to assure you that the drop rates for these modules will be changing in the same fashion as the other tiericided modules. The new named variations of modules will all have equal drop rates and their combined drop rates will equal the combined drop rates of all the old named modules.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Circumstantial Evidence
#39 - 2016-02-14 21:36:04 UTC
Will anyone fit the "enduring" variant? Cap drain seems... low, on all of these ;)
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#40 - 2016-02-14 21:42:23 UTC
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
Will anyone fit the "enduring" variant? Cap drain seems... low, on all of these ;)


probably not besides noobs .. maybe cap usage should be increased at least on the T2 version, also think T2 should require level5 skill as all T2 mods/ships should require, but its not applied consistently for some reason, i still think webs need a blanket nerf, 15km on faction is OP

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Previous page123Next page