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Author
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2016-02-12 08:20:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Lan Wang wrote:
but then no knowledge on the game as joe is researching actually buying skills, how and where to inject them while jeff is learning to kite and do pvp mechanics.

jeff wins because jeff knows how to eve, be like jeff

You just introduced another variable thats pure speculation. That doesnt work. What does work is Joe has max cap recharge, max speed, tracking, agility, shields, armor, T2 equipment etc etc. Jeffs dead meat :)

obviously there are exceptional players and shite players but when comparing as we have to with the multiple hundred thousand accounts in EvE we need to use avarage players as a baseline. So joe and jeff are both average players.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#82 - 2016-02-12 08:30:00 UTC
proper pay2win would be a new bro buying a 70mil sp char and beating a genuine trained 70mil sp player purely out of sp, but that doesnt happen so its not really pay2win is it?

its all speculation....

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2016-02-12 08:47:04 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
proper pay2win would be a new bro buying a 70mil sp char and beating a genuine trained 70mil sp player purely out of sp, but that doesnt happen so its not really pay2win is it?

its all speculation....


No not all speculation. Its fact that on average EvE players will not be fully trained. Its also fact that you could spend money to be fully trained up. Its fact that the average EvE player is an average pvpr obviously. that means on average those who buy sp will beat those who dont buy SP.

everyone seems to be in massive denial but the reality is you could already buy a char from day one so nothing really had changed.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2016-02-12 08:51:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
proper pay2win would be a new bro buying a 70mil sp char and beating a genuine trained 70mil sp player purely out of sp, but that doesnt happen so its not really pay2win is it?

its all speculation....


No not all speculation. Its fact that on average EvE players will not be fully trained. Its also fact that you could spend money to be fully trained up. Its fact that the average EvE player is an average pvpr obviously. that means on average those who buy sp will beat those who dont buy SP.

everyone seems to be in massive denial but the reality is you could already buy a char from day one so nothing really had changed.
Doesn't really work like that. A player who trains up to max out a specific ship and/or combat style can't be outmatched by SP in that application even if another player buys more total SP. With individual skills capped at 5 and only a certain number of skills applying to each fit or ship widely divergent SP totals can actually perform the same if not close enough to be indistinguishable.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2016-02-12 08:57:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
proper pay2win would be a new bro buying a 70mil sp char and beating a genuine trained 70mil sp player purely out of sp, but that doesnt happen so its not really pay2win is it?

its all speculation....


No not all speculation. Its fact that on average EvE players will not be fully trained. Its also fact that you could spend money to be fully trained up. Its fact that the average EvE player is an average pvpr obviously. that means on average those who buy sp will beat those who dont buy SP.

everyone seems to be in massive denial but the reality is you could already buy a char from day one so nothing really had changed.
Doesn't really work like that. A player who trains up to max out a specific ship and/or combat style can't be outmatched by SP in that application even if another player buys more total SP. With individual skills capped at 5 and only a certain number of skills applying to each fit or ship widely divergent SP totals can actually perform the same if not close enough to be indistinguishable.

While true those max trained players dont matter though in that sense all things being equal we could call that scenario Pay Not To Lose.

The majority of players dont have all engineery, electronics gunnery navigation etc etc to max as well as all ship relevant skills theyre flying to max. the majority are average not elite.

now one of these average guysbcan pay to max elite themselves and stomp all the others.

edit:

while somewhat alliviated by the numbers game the pay to win aspect will transfer even more spectacularly to group play where a non paying fleet will be trounced by paying fleets. its virtually garanteed that corps alliances will now require applicant to PTW to ge accepted or will fund PTW themselves

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

pajedas
Doomheim
#86 - 2016-02-12 15:48:41 UTC
Loss of Skill Points

Focus People!!!

🐇

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#87 - 2016-02-12 16:02:00 UTC
pajedas wrote:
Loss of Skill Points

Focus People!!!


Loss of skillpoints on injection is necessary to prevent trivial intracharacter remapping, which would be bad for gameplay.

You're more or less the only person in the thread who doesn't seem to grasp this.

No amount of roleplay rationalization is sufficient to counteract a gameplay necessity, so you can quit presenting those as if they matter.

It's not going anywhere. Change your huggies and move on.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
#88 - 2016-02-12 16:27:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Infinity Ziona wrote:

now one of these average guysbcan pay to max elite themselves and stomp all the others.




No, they can't. SP are a limited resource, they have to be trained; if enough people are transferring them, they can definitely run dry completely, and as OP so deftly pointed out (something none of us knew about because no one put it in a devblog anywhere or anything like that, and even if they did, reading is hard), SP are lost in the transfer process. Even MORE are lost if the player using the SP already has a lot. It does come with a very sudden and steep point of limited returns where it's just not worth doing anymore.

And, as has been pointed out to you on many occasions, SP don't matter as much as understanding the mechanics. Don't try this 'average player' bulls**t on me either, the average player is just as capable of learning mechanics as the very good ones. How do you think players become good at the game to begin with? Do you think people start this game already being very good at it do you? Get out. I've seen players less than 6 months into the game wipe the floor with your so-called 'pay-to-win' types more than enough times to know how it works, and the only person you're deluding with this nonsense is yourself.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Avvy
Doomheim
#89 - 2016-02-12 16:39:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Lina Sovereign wrote:
I think it's just turning the game into a Pay2Win MMO with subscription.



So if I have more SP I will always defeat you?

It is pay to win but its been paytowin since plex n character buying were allowed.

if you have more SP likely will beat youre opponent yeah. all other variables being equal. comparisons based on wild inequalities are useless. thats why comparisons are almost always done with only the variable in question being inequal.

Jeff n Joe both sign to EvE, they skill up until they can both fly a Tristan. Joe buys a years worth of skill points and trains all engineering, electronics, weps to 5.

Jeffs about to get his ass kicked. Joe paid to win. Pretty simple.

the only time this is not true is with already trained chars with Tristen related skills maxed.



Doesn't sound like p2w to me.

You can accumulate sp by just login on and adding it to your skill queue, which means it isn't something that gives you an advantage that you can only get by paying cash for it (subscriptions don't count as technically everyone has to do that one way or another).
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#90 - 2016-02-12 17:02:18 UTC
pajedas wrote:
Loss of Skill Points

Focus People!!!


Given you're a 2005 character, I can't help but assume this is a stealthy "I wish I could abuse this new mechanic" thread.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2016-02-12 19:37:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Infinity Ziona wrote:
While true those max trained players dont matter though in that sense all things being equal we could call that scenario Pay Not To Lose.

The majority of players dont have all engineery, electronics gunnery navigation etc etc to max as well as all ship relevant skills theyre flying to max. the majority are average not elite.

now one of these average guysbcan pay to max elite themselves and stomp all the others.
No, he really can't because it's not something available to him alone. A lot of those players he's competing with DO have the relevant cores for the ships they fly, further the ones they don't have they can get the same way through in game assets. Nothing opens up any exclusive or discriminatory options.

Infinity Ziona wrote:
edit:

while somewhat alliviated by the numbers game the pay to win aspect will transfer even more spectacularly to group play where a non paying fleet will be trounced by paying fleets. its virtually garanteed that corps alliances will now require applicant to PTW to ge accepted or will fund PTW themselves
That's actually where it's minimized rather than of greatest importance. The far bigger benefit there will be to raw numbers and composition than individual SP. I'd more wager at that point injectors see their greatest irrelevance.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#92 - 2016-02-12 20:25:13 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
proper pay2win would be a new bro buying a 70mil sp char and beating a genuine trained 70mil sp player purely out of sp, but that doesnt happen so its not really pay2win is it?

its all speculation....


No not all speculation. Its fact that on average EvE players will not be fully trained. Its also fact that you could spend money to be fully trained up. Its fact that the average EvE player is an average pvpr obviously. that means on average those who buy sp will beat those who dont buy SP.

everyone seems to be in massive denial but the reality is you could already buy a char from day one so nothing really had changed.
Doesn't really work like that. A player who trains up to max out a specific ship and/or combat style can't be outmatched by SP in that application even if another player buys more total SP. With individual skills capped at 5 and only a certain number of skills applying to each fit or ship widely divergent SP totals can actually perform the same if not close enough to be indistinguishable.

While true those max trained players dont matter though in that sense all things being equal we could call that scenario Pay Not To Lose.

The majority of players dont have all engineery, electronics gunnery navigation etc etc to max as well as all ship relevant skills theyre flying to max. the majority are average not elite.

now one of these average guysbcan pay to max elite themselves and stomp all the others.

edit:

while somewhat alliviated by the numbers game the pay to win aspect will transfer even more spectacularly to group play where a non paying fleet will be trounced by paying fleets. its virtually garanteed that corps alliances will now require applicant to PTW to ge accepted or will fund PTW themselves


I am not home so I can't check....but...

Yeah, I pretty much have electronics, shield skills, and the other core skills maxed. I can use all the t2 large guns, the only thing left to train relating to guns would be the large specialization skills to 5. I have something like 18 million SP in gunnery alone.

Yet....I die, and probably to players with less SP than me. If I am in say a Proteus all the gunnery skills for lasers, projectiles, missiles and drones do not matter in the least. If I am in an ishtar and die...all the skills for gunnery skills, missile skills, and SP for carriers, dreadnoughts, interceptors, battle cruisers do not mean ****.

What having a butt-ton of SP gives me the most is versatility. I can fly all racial HACs, all racial BS, all racial destroyers, and I can fly 3 out of 4 racial carriers. But in any given instance the vast bulk of those SP mean...nothing.

The game does not total up players SP when they start shooting each other and the guy with less SP then has ship explode.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

pajedas
Doomheim
#93 - 2016-02-12 21:11:51 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
I am not home so I can't check....but...

Just add your character to http://eveboard.com/ and password protect it.

Then you can check your specific skills from anywhere you have internet :-)

🐇

pajedas
Doomheim
#94 - 2016-02-12 21:14:32 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
pajedas wrote:
Loss of Skill Points

Focus People!!!


Given you're a 2005 character, I can't help but assume this is a stealthy "I wish I could abuse this new mechanic" thread.

No.

I used 3 extractors to take out worthless skill points and re-injected them. (Still unallocated)

I'm done as far as I can tell.

🐇

Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#95 - 2016-02-12 21:59:13 UTC
pajedas wrote:
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
pajedas wrote:
Loss of Skill Points

Focus People!!!


Given you're a 2005 character, I can't help but assume this is a stealthy "I wish I could abuse this new mechanic" thread.

No.

I used 3 extractors to take out worthless skill points and re-injected them. (Still unallocated)

I'm done as far as I can tell.


so you're bitter because it didnt benefit you like you would have preferred, or didnt you read before you reinjected?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#96 - 2016-02-12 22:04:15 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
edit:

while somewhat alliviated by the numbers game the pay to win aspect will transfer even more spectacularly to group play where a non paying fleet will be trounced by paying fleets. its virtually garanteed that corps alliances will now require applicant to PTW to ge accepted or will fund PTW themselves


so a bit like ship srp where big alliances p2w with moon goo and other alliance income?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

pajedas
Doomheim
#97 - 2016-02-12 22:09:22 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
so you're bitter because it didnt benefit you like you would have preferred, or didnt you read before you reinjected?

You're the perfect example of someone who doesn't bother to read a thread before making some snarky comment.

Of course I read the description before I used it and got what I expected.

I'm asking people to look at the "big picture".

🐇

Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#98 - 2016-02-12 22:18:15 UTC
pajedas wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
so you're bitter because it didnt benefit you like you would have preferred, or didnt you read before you reinjected?

You're the perfect example of someone who doesn't bother to read a thread before making some snarky comment.

Of course I read the description before I used it and got what I expected.

I'm asking people to look at the "big picture".


my first snarky comment was post number 5 Cool

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Avvy
Doomheim
#99 - 2016-02-12 23:28:34 UTC
pajedas wrote:


I'm asking people to look at the "big picture".


Seems like a lot of us don't see the same big picture that you do.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#100 - 2016-02-12 23:31:29 UTC
pajedas wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
so you're bitter because it didnt benefit you like you would have preferred, or didnt you read before you reinjected?

You're the perfect example of someone who doesn't bother to read a thread before making some snarky comment.

Of course I read the description before I used it and got what I expected.

I'm asking people to look at the "big picture".


The big picture is that is that lossless on-demand skill point remapping would be bad for the game.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/