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Dev blog: Structure fitting in the EVE: Citadel Expansion

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Mr Grape Drink
Doomheim
#141 - 2016-02-11 18:20:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Grape Drink
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
bp920091 wrote:
Ran the numbers with a current loadout of stront and fuel blocks (given the 8.8-9 stront/block number you'd get from a 400/run use).

Currently, to build 175k blocks, i'll use roughly 350 Compressed Dark Glitter and 350 Compressed Glare Crust (plus, you know, Isotopes and PI stuff). To generate the stront needed for the same number of fuel blocks, i'll need 12,500 units of Krystallos (the most stront rich ice in eve). To put that in perspective, that's 15.6 TIMES the combined Dark Glitter and Glare Crust requirements, and i'm still missing heavy water.

Adding stront to a block is the worst idea, but the numbers are so far from being OK logistically, that it's ridiculous. How about 0.25 Stront a block. This will require 10 stront a load, and, while still require an adjustment in the ice purchased, brings the total logistical level from "Completely Unreasonable" to "Actually Practical"


Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again.


I assume the logs show everything. Maybe just look at how much stront gets eaten up by towers a month vs how much fuel blocks get eaten up and find a nice even stront/block number to keep the demand relatively the same!

Obviously it wouldnt be perfect because who the hell knows what the difference in fuel blocks consuption will be post citadel, but its a start :P
Barrett Fruitcake
Doomheim
#142 - 2016-02-11 18:29:22 UTC
IIRC fuel requirement only starts once you add specific mods to the structure.
Don't want a fuel cost, don't add those specific ones.

That is, IIRC.
Mr Grape Drink
Doomheim
#143 - 2016-02-11 18:37:53 UTC
John McCreedy wrote:
Raphendyr Nardieu wrote:
John McCreedy wrote:
Fuelling stations now, great. The game is getting further and further away from the things that make it fun and clogging you down with more and more micromanagement. You should be freeing up our time to focus on the fun things in Eve, not tying us down further with logistics.


Well. I see your point, but I presume you are meaning that you need to start fueling stuctures that replace outposts as nothing is chanhed for the stations.

Also, in the other hand. There will be lot of people with e.g. medium Citadels who don't need to fuel them at all! So it's so much easier for them compared to current POSes.

Also, if you want easy XL citadel to replace your outpost, don't add any services to it. Whow. no fuel costs...

Note also that getting and transporting fuel t your citadel can be content to others.


I've re-read that part of the blog and it makes no distinction between Citadel sizes and therefore implies that fuel is required for the running of them all. We have existed for almost thirteen years without stations requiring fuel and all of a sudden, some bright spark at CCP thinks this is a good idea. It's not. It's not because it makes the game less accessible to those with less time on their hands.

As for not adding services, what would be the point in all that outlay just to have a place to log off? Use a safe spot and safe log. Use a Cap ship for refitting/re-shipping for far less time, money and ongoing effort. Not adding services defeats the entire object of building a Citadel in the first place. Better to add fuel requirements to those structures that will eventually replace what most people use a POS for: Moon miners and reactors and jump bridges.

To CCP I say this: Look at your competition in the MMO market. Where an equivalent applies to Citadels, for example Guild Halls in GW2, Stations in STO or Ships and apartments in SWTOR, none require their players to fuel the bloody things. They allow for players to jump straight in to the aspect of the game they find most fun, be it PvP or PvE or just exploration. Why should Eve make it harder for players to enjoy the same experience?


Always gotta be one shitter
Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#144 - 2016-02-11 18:48:27 UTC
John McCreedy wrote:
Raphendyr Nardieu wrote:
John McCreedy wrote:
Fuelling stations now, great. The game is getting further and further away from the things that make it fun and clogging you down with more and more micromanagement. You should be freeing up our time to focus on the fun things in Eve, not tying us down further with logistics.


Well. I see your point, but I presume you are meaning that you need to start fueling stuctures that replace outposts as nothing is chanhed for the stations.

Also, in the other hand. There will be lot of people with e.g. medium Citadels who don't need to fuel them at all! So it's so much easier for them compared to current POSes.

Also, if you want easy XL citadel to replace your outpost, don't add any services to it. Whow. no fuel costs...

Note also that getting and transporting fuel t your citadel can be content to others.


I've re-read that part of the blog and it makes no distinction between Citadel sizes and therefore implies that fuel is required for the running of them all. We have existed for almost thirteen years without stations requiring fuel and all of a sudden, some bright spark at CCP thinks this is a good idea. It's not. It's not because it makes the game less accessible to those with less time on their hands.

As for not adding services, what would be the point in all that outlay just to have a place to log off? Use a safe spot and safe log. Use a Cap ship for refitting/re-shipping for far less time, money and ongoing effort. Not adding services defeats the entire object of building a Citadel in the first place. Better to add fuel requirements to those structures that will eventually replace what most people use a POS for: Moon miners and reactors and jump bridges.

To CCP I say this: Look at your competition in the MMO market. Where an equivalent applies to Citadels, for example Guild Halls in GW2, Stations in STO or Ships and apartments in SWTOR, none require their players to fuel the bloody things. They allow for players to jump straight in to the aspect of the game they find most fun, be it PvP or PvE or just exploration. Why should Eve make it harder for players to enjoy the same experience?


You seem pretty upset about the fuel thing, but you know the amazing thing about "stations", they have hangars where you can store things and hopefully in the future we will have Courier Contracts for a citadel. So instead of the POS dynamic where we need to schlup blocks out to a tower every 38 days in a fancy ship like a JF or Rorqual, you could do all that hauling at once for many months, then later on dock up in a interceptor and move blocks from column A to B. Use a corp hangar, let your friends do it.


SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#145 - 2016-02-11 20:26:46 UTC
John McCreedy wrote:


To CCP I say this: Look at your competition in the MMO market. Where an equivalent applies to Citadels, for example Guild Halls in GW2, Stations in STO or Ships and apartments in SWTOR, none require their players to fuel the bloody things. They allow for players to jump straight in to the aspect of the game they find most fun, be it PvP or PvE or just exploration. Why should Eve make it harder for players to enjoy the same experience?


Crazy, isn't it? It's almost as if, unlike every other MMO out there, Eve actually has a player run economy that relies on continual consumption of goods to drive demand. Roll

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Kazaheid Zaknafein
Vakarii War Industries
#146 - 2016-02-11 22:07:25 UTC
The problem with using stront isn't so much the amount, its the availability and transportability of it. At 3m^3 per stront a single run of fuel would 1200m^3; and thats just the stront, and doesnt take into acount the other matterials. Then the fact that stront is only found in ice, and of the ice only nullsec ice has more than 1 per block.

Its like mining for noxcium and only having access to pyroxeres in 90% of space.

The maximum mining speed of ice is ~3/min per hulk with maxed orca; assuming that you are not gonna force all the miners in eve into nullsec. this is the cap of highsec mining. At 3 stront per hulk, per min. it would take a single miner two hours to mine the stront needed to make a single run of 40 blocks.

No one complains about the super high numbers of minerals it takes to make captials because trit is everywhere, you can find it in literally any system with a belt. Ice is more restrictive in its access, and krystalos is even more difficult to have in large ammounts.

My suggestion would be to increase the stront content of all ice by at least 50, and reduce the stront size down to 1m^3 per unit, allowing its transportation at the volumes needed to make it worth while to try and export.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#147 - 2016-02-12 02:07:50 UTC
John McCreedy wrote:


I've re-read that part of the blog and it makes no distinction between Citadel sizes and therefore implies that fuel is required for the running of them all. We have existed for almost thirteen years without stations requiring fuel and all of a sudden, some bright spark at CCP thinks this is a good idea. It's not. It's not because it makes the game less accessible to those with less time on their hands.

You do know that you will be able to get rid of 80% of those POS currently in existence right? Because any POS holding a moon simply to deny it to any invaders for their own POS will now be useless. You will now only have to fuel POS that are performing actual roles such as moon mining, (and that is assuming CCP don't do the smart thing and make moon mining an active player task)
So a few replacement Citadels for Outposts which have infinite fuel bays so you can just top them up whenever convenient rather than having to have a strict schedule are not going to be an issue.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#148 - 2016-02-12 02:13:56 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again.


When you are looking at the numbers, consider this:

If you adjust stront prior to POS being removed from the game, then you're creating additional supply for the huge demand that would be consumed by POS. When citadels are released, you'll have a double dipping of fuel block consumption in both POS and Citadels. When POS are eventually removed from the game, you'll see the demand of fuel blocks plummet unless you implement a scaling fuel consumption based on how many reactions goes on within a citadel. If a scaling fuel consumption is not utilized for reactions, then you'll run into a gigantic surplus of stront (much like there is today).

There are several ways to handle this:

  • Leave stront as-is, perhaps only reducing the m3 to make it less of a pain to move, and not alter the supply. Add stront to the fuel block recipe once POS are removed from the game.
  • Reduce the m3 of stront a considerable amount and increase the supply from existing ice. Perhaps the volume (m3) of stront refined from ice would remain the same, but more units would be derived from that volume. Immediately change the fuel block recipe to include stront.
  • Do not alter stront at all, perhaps not even adjusting the m3, and make it a supplementary requirement for certain citadel functions.


Even if you do simply reduce the amount of stront per block run, you'll still run into a major change in consumption once POS are removed. That is, unless you do indeed implement a scaling consumption for reactions post POS.

In all of these situations, highsec will be completely reliant on null ice unless additional changes are made to highsec belt comps.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#149 - 2016-02-12 14:00:41 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Ytterbium
Alright, update regarding the stront numbers:


  • We're going to decrease required stront numbers from 400 to 200 for a batch of 40 fuel blocks.
  • Stront volume is being decreased from 3 to 2m3.
  • Stront consumption of triage and siege modules will increase by 50% to compensate. This puts consumption at 375m3 for Siege Modules and 375 / 300 for Triage I / II
  • Entosis Links are not affected.


Edit: also renaming fuel blocks from racial fuel block to isotope fuel block, should reduce confusion since the new structures don't have different racial themes.


  • Helium Fuel Block, Nitrogen Fuel Block, Oxygen Fuel Block, Hydrogen Fuel Block
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#150 - 2016-02-12 14:44:05 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Alright, update regarding the stront numbers:


  • We're going to decrease required stront numbers from 400 to 200 for a batch of 40 fuel blocks.
  • Stront volume is being decreased from 3 to 2m3.
  • Stront consumption of triage and siege modules will increase by 50% to compensate. This puts consumption at 375m3 for Siege Modules and 375 / 300 for Triage I / II
  • Entosis Links are not affected.


Edit: also renaming fuel blocks from racial fuel block to isotope fuel block, should reduce confusion since the new structures don't have different racial themes.


  • Helium Fuel Block, Nitrogen Fuel Block, Oxygen Fuel Block, Hydrogen Fuel Block


This should help allay my previous concerns quite a bit. Thanks!

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#151 - 2016-02-12 14:55:32 UTC
Good move.

Will a 50% reduction from 400 to 200 units per block be enough though?

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RainReaper
Bras-Tek Industries
Nefatari Union
#152 - 2016-02-12 15:47:57 UTC  |  Edited by: RainReaper
I do have to say that being self sustaining in fuel in highsec is gonna be HARD when you need so much stront and get so little.
Having to mine more than 200 blocks of ice for a single run of fuel blocks wont be fun att all.
Maybe you can add in a tiny amount of glare crust roids into the highsec ice anomalies?
Or make a new type of ice with a bit less strontium and half the heavy water and liquid ozone of that of glare crust?
Cause lets face it its gonna be hell to get that much strontium in the highsec ice anomalies.

If you can do neither of those then you NEED to increase the amount of strontium you get from the racial ice.
Cause i refuse to sit and mine for... 3.5 hours to get a SINGLE hour worth of fuel in a citadel. And i have been looking forward to the structures for so long. please dont take this away from me guys Q~Q
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#153 - 2016-02-12 16:19:30 UTC
RainReaper wrote:
I do have to say that being self sustaining in fuel in highsec is gonna be HARD when you need so much stront and get so little.
Having to mine more than 200 blocks of ice for a single run of fuel blocks wont be fun att all.
Maybe you can add in a tiny amount of glare crust roids into the highsec ice anomalies?
Or make a new type of ice with a bit less strontium and half the heavy water and liquid ozone of that of glare crust?
Cause lets face it its gonna be hell to get that much strontium in the highsec ice anomalies.

If you can do neither of those then you NEED to increase the amount of strontium you get from the racial ice.
Cause i refuse to sit and mine for... 3.5 hours to get a SINGLE hour worth of fuel in a citadel. And i have been looking forward to the structures for so long. please dont take this away from me guys Q~Q


You could buy the stront off the market also as it would be a boost to null sec to have an advantage over high.
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#154 - 2016-02-12 16:23:14 UTC
50% reduction in stront is a good start, but that still leaves a massive deficit of strontium. I hav ebeen buying ICE locally and from jita for 2 months to supply me with all the required LO/HW and isotopes(well mostly, still need to import some raw every now and then) but with all the stront acquired I still only have enough for 1 week worth of construction. But I still have enough LO/HW to last me a month. So something is wrong here.

And praying that the old ice miners from yeh will drop their existant strontium supply on market seems to be a bit odd
RainReaper
Bras-Tek Industries
Nefatari Union
#155 - 2016-02-12 16:27:38 UTC
Fredric Wolf wrote:
RainReaper wrote:
I do have to say that being self sustaining in fuel in highsec is gonna be HARD when you need so much stront and get so little.
Having to mine more than 200 blocks of ice for a single run of fuel blocks wont be fun att all.
Maybe you can add in a tiny amount of glare crust roids into the highsec ice anomalies?
Or make a new type of ice with a bit less strontium and half the heavy water and liquid ozone of that of glare crust?
Cause lets face it its gonna be hell to get that much strontium in the highsec ice anomalies.

If you can do neither of those then you NEED to increase the amount of strontium you get from the racial ice.
Cause i refuse to sit and mine for... 3.5 hours to get a SINGLE hour worth of fuel in a citadel. And i have been looking forward to the structures for so long. please dont take this away from me guys Q~Q


You could buy the stront off the market also as it would be a boost to null sec to have an advantage over high.


Highsec wont be self sustainable att all anymore. Im not asking for Gelidus or Krystallos, wich is null sec ice and contains the most strontium, im asking for a small amount of glare crust in the highsec ice anomalies. Wich is 0.4 ice curently
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#156 - 2016-02-12 16:31:06 UTC
Firvain wrote:
50% reduction in stront is a good start, but that still leaves a massive deficit of strontium. I hav ebeen buying ICE locally and from jita for 2 months to supply me with all the required LO/HW and isotopes(well mostly, still need to import some raw every now and then) but with all the stront acquired I still only have enough for 1 week worth of construction. But I still have enough LO/HW to last me a month. So something is wrong here.

And praying that the old ice miners from yeh will drop their existant strontium supply on market seems to be a bit odd


Do you think this is more a supply demand issue as up until now mining for stront was not all that profitable up until now?
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#157 - 2016-02-12 16:33:12 UTC
RainReaper wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
RainReaper wrote:
I do have to say that being self sustaining in fuel in highsec is gonna be HARD when you need so much stront and get so little.
Having to mine more than 200 blocks of ice for a single run of fuel blocks wont be fun att all.
Maybe you can add in a tiny amount of glare crust roids into the highsec ice anomalies?
Or make a new type of ice with a bit less strontium and half the heavy water and liquid ozone of that of glare crust?
Cause lets face it its gonna be hell to get that much strontium in the highsec ice anomalies.

If you can do neither of those then you NEED to increase the amount of strontium you get from the racial ice.
Cause i refuse to sit and mine for... 3.5 hours to get a SINGLE hour worth of fuel in a citadel. And i have been looking forward to the structures for so long. please dont take this away from me guys Q~Q


You could buy the stront off the market also as it would be a boost to null sec to have an advantage over high.


Highsec wont be self sustainable att all anymore. Im not asking for Gelidus or Krystallos, wich is null sec ice and contains the most strontium, im asking for a small amount of glare crust in the highsec ice anomalies. Wich is 0.4 ice curently


Why do you feel that Hi-Sec should be self sustainable?
RainReaper
Bras-Tek Industries
Nefatari Union
#158 - 2016-02-12 16:40:49 UTC
Fredric Wolf wrote:
RainReaper wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
RainReaper wrote:
I do have to say that being self sustaining in fuel in highsec is gonna be HARD when you need so much stront and get so little.
Having to mine more than 200 blocks of ice for a single run of fuel blocks wont be fun att all.
Maybe you can add in a tiny amount of glare crust roids into the highsec ice anomalies?
Or make a new type of ice with a bit less strontium and half the heavy water and liquid ozone of that of glare crust?
Cause lets face it its gonna be hell to get that much strontium in the highsec ice anomalies.

If you can do neither of those then you NEED to increase the amount of strontium you get from the racial ice.
Cause i refuse to sit and mine for... 3.5 hours to get a SINGLE hour worth of fuel in a citadel. And i have been looking forward to the structures for so long. please dont take this away from me guys Q~Q


You could buy the stront off the market also as it would be a boost to null sec to have an advantage over high.


Highsec wont be self sustainable att all anymore. Im not asking for Gelidus or Krystallos, wich is null sec ice and contains the most strontium, im asking for a small amount of glare crust in the highsec ice anomalies. Wich is 0.4 ice curently


Why do you feel that Hi-Sec should be self sustainable?


because its always been a bit self sustainable. when ccp changed the static ice belts into ice anomalies they said that fuel sustainability in highsec would be around 4/5 out of that wich was needed. After these changes its not gonna be even 1/5 cause you get so damn little strontium in highsec. look im not trying to say we should be 100% self sustainable. But if we cant mine any decent amount of fuel here att all then highsec cant be home to all the structures that are gonna come. listen im not trying to **** you off here. im just saying that we need to be able to providefor ourselves a little. what if all the strontium in highsec gets brought up? if it runs out and null sec dosent sell any to high anymore? we will be in trouble then!
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#159 - 2016-02-12 16:43:02 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Altrue wrote:
Good move.

Will a 50% reduction from 400 to 200 units per block be enough though?


That still triples the m3 required for fuel construction, which seems excessive. Napkin math, just based on the amount of fuel blocks and strontium sold in the Domain market, it looks like it could easily be a 5-10x increase in the general rate of stront consumption, as opposed to the stated intent of replacing the amount consumed by reinforcement.

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Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#160 - 2016-02-12 16:51:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredric Wolf
RainReaper wrote:


because its always been a bit self sustainable. when ccp changed the static ice belts into ice anomalies they said that fuel sustainability in highsec would be around 4/5 out of that wich was needed. After these changes its not gonna be even 1/5 cause you get so damn little strontium in highsec. look im not trying to say we should be 100% self sustainable. But if we cant mine any decent amount of fuel here att all then highsec cant be home to all the structures that are gonna come. listen im not trying to **** you off here. im just saying that we need to be able to providefor ourselves a little. what if all the strontium in highsec gets brought up? if it runs out and null sec dosent sell any to high anymore? we will be in trouble then!


I am not getting upset. I was just interested in your opinion on the matter. Do I think Hi-Sec should be 100% self sustaining. I do not. With what you have put though, is a very valid concern with good numbers to back it up. I think a better solution would be to increase the amount of stront in both standard and improved ore by 3 for base and 5 for improved. It will allow miners in empire to be some what self sufficient but also not change the standard of null only ice asteroids.