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[March] Warp Disruptor and Scrambler Tiericide

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Aaril
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#41 - 2016-02-12 02:18:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Aaril
Suitonia wrote:
The range nerf on the Meta Scramblers seems pretty big. (Intentional?)

It makes sense to make the Tech II Warp Scrambler finally worth using over Faint Epsilon. However, dropping all scrams to the t1 base range of 7.5km changes the scram kiting meta-game quite substantially from the previous common range of 8625m from J5b. 8000 for non-scoped meta, 8500m for scoped seems a little better for progression (7.5km, 8km, 8.5km, 9km) from t1 to t2 in 500m increments. I understand you may want consistency with this class of modules though with the Meta Warp Disruptors also having the same optimal range of the T1 version.

Other than that, I think these changes look very promising and healthy.

I think the old RF point used to be overpowered with best range and CPU so I don't see it as too much of an issue going up to 40 CPU and the new 'compact' style tier of faction modules not having the old CPU. I think it's worth pointing out to people upset about the CPU increase that there are more options now (Compact Weapon Upgrades, Damage Controls not being mandatory) which can help with fitting


I agree overall, but the scoped should be at 8625m, and the rest at 8250m. Also the drop rates need to change so we are not paying 5M for a scoped scram (this is half the cost of a standard T2 fitted T1 frig).

As to your second point, I have been going through all my fits in Pyfa, and the results of this tiericide (the combination of all...sensor boosters at 16 CPU instead of 10, TPs at 24 instead of 16, etc) are an across the board nerf all due to CPU. Not huge nerfs, but nearly all my fits were nerfed in some way. I cannot even fit Interdictors anymore due to their already EXTREMELY limited CPU.
exiik Shardani
Imperial Spacedrill and Logistics
#42 - 2016-02-12 03:45:16 UTC  |  Edited by: exiik Shardani
J5b scram is core for most PvP fits in FW and nerf from 8625 to 7500 is so so hard. after that there is no reason to fit that. that change hurt hard most tormentor fits for example.

Faint scram needs at least 8625m (old J5b scram range), or mayby 8800m and +1cap usage

J5b and initial scrams need at least 8200m scram range. 7500m is very low and it is so hard for scram kite and it is as well hard buff for kiters (mainly inside in FW plex, much more easily getting out of scram with OH mwd after entering plex...)

or buff scram overheat range...


exiik Shardani wrote:
so range/CPU metrics [NEW]

Intial compact- 7500/26= 288
J5b - 7500/30= 250
Faint - 8250/30= 275
T2 scram - 9000/36= 250

so range/CPU metrics [OLD]

Intial compact- 7875/26= 302
J5b - 8625/27= 319
Faint - 9000/28= 321
T2 scram - 9000/36= 250

as you can see from m/cpu why J5b and Faint were most popular...


I think new numbers can be more in row, but with some minimal range aka "old one"
Intial compact- 7875/26= 302
J5b - 8625/30= 287 or 8400/30=280(if scram nerf is really needed)
Faint - 8960/32= 280
T2 scram - 9360/36= 260

sry for my English :-(
Rockstara
Reaction Scientific
#43 - 2016-02-12 04:20:38 UTC
The heavy versions are a bit underwhelming considering the massive PG fitting cost. With that fitting they'll only be able to be used on ships without a range bonus so they're pretty meh.

Like that the worst officer disruptors will now be better than faction. So Pirate
Canon Makanen
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#44 - 2016-02-12 04:46:35 UTC
CCP, just tell me why you increase the CPU of disruptor and ECM module, and no more Meta 4 Damage control? I dont know why your tiericide always made ppls more annoying and need them to abandon or change their fitting. You just need to give us some reason why you need to increase the cpu usage of these module and no substitution of the old meta DC
MRxX7XxMONKEY
Sleepless Enterprises
#45 - 2016-02-12 04:58:12 UTC
Make sure you guys balance DSTs so that theyre in line with these changes, need more warp strength if almost everybody is going to have 3 strength scrams. Especially with the navy maulus existing
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2016-02-12 06:13:59 UTC
Vogels wrote:
What's the point of having 3 groups of mods each with the exact same stats? There is no reason to have 6 redundant modules that are named differently.


Agreed. Combine the identical faction variants into a single item with a new generic name. Sell this same item from all 3 faction LP stores. This current proposal reeks of the exact redundancy and pointless complexity I thought tiericide was supposed to address.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#47 - 2016-02-12 08:27:12 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Amera Khan wrote:
Nerfing fitting on faction points just kills Blops fits which are extremely tight to fit. Please reconsider the CPU nerf.

Or CCP could just rebalance BlOps to give them the fitting they need so they don't have to go max deadspace/faction to get a useable fit.



Heresy.

Apparently.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#48 - 2016-02-12 08:30:45 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
I think the old RF point used to be overpowered with best range and CPU so I don't see it as too much of an issue going up to 40 CPU and the new 'compact' style tier of faction modules not having the old CPU. I think it's worth pointing out to people upset about the CPU increase that there are more options now (Compact Weapon Upgrades, Damage Controls not being mandatory) which can help with fitting



Erm, the BLOPs guys already use faction and deadspace just about everything because the fitting on those ships is absolutely ridiculous. Said faction and deadspace being even lower than the proposed compact versions.

This is a pretty substantial nerf to BLOPS, we can probably pay our way out of it by even more excessive bling but that's not really the point.
May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#49 - 2016-02-12 08:47:55 UTC
Awesome. You just broke Interceptors again.
Qweasdy
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#50 - 2016-02-12 09:05:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Qweasdy
Suitonia wrote:
The range nerf on the Meta Scramblers seems pretty big. (Intentional?)

It makes sense to make the Tech II Warp Scrambler finally worth using over Faint Epsilon. However, dropping all scrams to the t1 base range of 7.5km changes the scram kiting meta-game quite substantially from the previous common range of 8625m from J5b. 8000 for non-scoped meta, 8500m for scoped seems a little better for progression (7.5km, 8km, 8.5km, 9km) from t1 to t2 in 500m increments. I understand you may want consistency with this class of modules though with the Meta Warp Disruptors also having the same optimal range of the T1 version.


I'm pretty sure it was intentional, scram kiting was pretty powerful (arugably too powerful), this change forces scram kiting ships to make more sacrifices than a ship that only uses their scram to brawl with. Seems pretty reasonable to me in combination with the change to hull resists and new lower cpu damage mods.

This is a terrible thread. As such, it's locked. - CCP Falcon
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#51 - 2016-02-12 10:54:47 UTC
so this means I can get my attack frigate's warp scrambler cap usage down to 0.3 units every 5 seconds lol. gg neutraliser scrubs.
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#52 - 2016-02-12 11:03:13 UTC
Qweasdy wrote:
Suitonia wrote:
The range nerf on the Meta Scramblers seems pretty big. (Intentional?)

It makes sense to make the Tech II Warp Scrambler finally worth using over Faint Epsilon. However, dropping all scrams to the t1 base range of 7.5km changes the scram kiting meta-game quite substantially from the previous common range of 8625m from J5b. 8000 for non-scoped meta, 8500m for scoped seems a little better for progression (7.5km, 8km, 8.5km, 9km) from t1 to t2 in 500m increments. I understand you may want consistency with this class of modules though with the Meta Warp Disruptors also having the same optimal range of the T1 version.


I'm pretty sure it was intentional, scram kiting was pretty powerful (arugably too powerful), this change forces scram kiting ships to make more sacrifices than a ship that only uses their scram to brawl with. Seems pretty reasonable to me in combination with the change to hull resists and new lower cpu damage mods.


Yeah I completely agree.

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Commander Spurty
#53 - 2016-02-12 12:08:46 UTC
T2 modules are so weak it's painful imagining why anyone would jump through all those hoops to produce them when rats will drop far superior versions and pay you to collect them!!

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Dantelion Shinoni
Empirical Inventions
#54 - 2016-02-12 12:44:16 UTC
All the tiericide changes have been fantastic, but this one...

This one is going to do a lot of harm to FW space.

If tiericide's goal if to create options, this one is going to fail hard!

Everyone will fit the Scoped or Tech II version when it comes to Scrams, those who don't will be punished by being scrammed by people at 8.5-9km on which they can't land one.

Check this, a 750m difference between Scoped and non-Scoped, this is huge! A difference of 500m has been the difference on a scram landed and yet another opponent warping away for me so many times, I can't see who in their right mind would be okay with giving 750m or a entire freaking kilometer compared to actual j5b!!?!

That plus you have to consider a 7.5k scram doesn't mean people will be at 7.5k when scram-kiting. It means they will be at ~6,else they are literally asking for that scram to break. Meanwhile the Scoped guy will be able to select the 7.5k range/orbit and laugh as the non-Scoped guy either try to go 5k,or constantly lose point on him.

Basically, you will have to fork a lot of cash to scram-kite. Assuming the same drop rate as Faint Epsilon for the Scoped version, it's either fork 3M, be able to fit tech II, or buy faction.....


That plus you have to consider that having to be at 5-7.5km exposes you to a lot more damage.
If the goal here is to nerf scram-kiting, mission accomplished, but only on those who will be daft enough to not fit a Scoped or more.
If you really want the 7.5k range, you have to reduce the difference with Scoped and Tech II and faction, otherwise you have just created an imbalance without beefing the thing.

If the goal is not to nerf scram-kiting, j5b range needs to be the range on sub-Scoped meta modules, else you will just end up with less kills and more people warping out all around FW space, and I can't see why'd you want that :p
Starrakatt
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#55 - 2016-02-12 12:53:26 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Suitonia wrote:
I think the old RF point used to be overpowered with best range and CPU so I don't see it as too much of an issue going up to 40 CPU and the new 'compact' style tier of faction modules not having the old CPU. I think it's worth pointing out to people upset about the CPU increase that there are more options now (Compact Weapon Upgrades, Damage Controls not being mandatory) which can help with fitting



Erm, the BLOPs guys already use faction and deadspace just about everything because the fitting on those ships is absolutely ridiculous. Said faction and deadspace being even lower than the proposed compact versions.

This is a pretty substantial nerf to BLOPS, we can probably pay our way out of it by even more excessive bling but that's not really the point.

CCP wants you to start using more Co-processors.

All PVP ships should fit one.

Obviously.

Join Celtic Anarchy!

Sneaky bastard.
Yvonne Chelien
Republic of Neckbeard
#56 - 2016-02-12 13:18:56 UTC
With changes of scrambler force, are you going to buff DST warp scramble resistance?
Luscius Uta
#57 - 2016-02-12 13:48:05 UTC
I'm not a fan of CPU changes, since they will kill a lot of fits utilizing meta 4 scrams and/or webs. I would highly recommend introducing a new skill (INT/MEM, 2x training multiplier) that would reduce CPU needs for all EWAR modules by 5% per level (this would include dampeners, jammers and so on, since they'll get tiericied as well).

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#58 - 2016-02-12 13:52:57 UTC
Starrakatt wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Suitonia wrote:
I think the old RF point used to be overpowered with best range and CPU so I don't see it as too much of an issue going up to 40 CPU and the new 'compact' style tier of faction modules not having the old CPU. I think it's worth pointing out to people upset about the CPU increase that there are more options now (Compact Weapon Upgrades, Damage Controls not being mandatory) which can help with fitting



Erm, the BLOPs guys already use faction and deadspace just about everything because the fitting on those ships is absolutely ridiculous. Said faction and deadspace being even lower than the proposed compact versions.

This is a pretty substantial nerf to BLOPS, we can probably pay our way out of it by even more excessive bling but that's not really the point.

CCP wants you to start using more Co-processors.

All PVP ships should fit one.

Obviously.



Quite.

This fit will now be gone:

[Redeemer, Example]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Coreli A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Coreli A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Internal Force Field Array I

Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
500MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Domination Warp Disruptor
Large Micro Jump Drive

Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Dread Guristas Cloaking Device
Medium Gremlin Compact Energy Neutralizer

Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Energy Burst Aerator II

Berserker II x5

Certainly, I can swap mods to make it fit, but they are ALL a nerf. Is that the aim here? Make people reduce the power on their hulls via a clubbing via fitting?

What meaningful choice am I presented with? Because as it stands it is "weaker fit, or offline mods". Not really much of a choice there guys.
Abda
Doomheim
#59 - 2016-02-12 13:53:06 UTC
BRB gotta go sell my blops bling before everyone notices its all gonna get nerfed.

And sell my blops too while I am at it, lol.
Starrakatt
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#60 - 2016-02-12 14:25:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Starrakatt
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Starrakatt wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Suitonia wrote:
I think the old RF point used to be overpowered with best range and CPU so I don't see it as too much of an issue going up to 40 CPU and the new 'compact' style tier of faction modules not having the old CPU. I think it's worth pointing out to people upset about the CPU increase that there are more options now (Compact Weapon Upgrades, Damage Controls not being mandatory) which can help with fitting



Erm, the BLOPs guys already use faction and deadspace just about everything because the fitting on those ships is absolutely ridiculous. Said faction and deadspace being even lower than the proposed compact versions.

This is a pretty substantial nerf to BLOPS, we can probably pay our way out of it by even more excessive bling but that's not really the point.

CCP wants you to start using more Co-processors.

All PVP ships should fit one.

Obviously.



Quite.

This fit will now be gone:

[Redeemer, Example]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Coreli A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Coreli A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Internal Force Field Array I

Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
500MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Domination Warp Disruptor
Large Micro Jump Drive

Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Dread Guristas Cloaking Device
Medium Gremlin Compact Energy Neutralizer

Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Energy Burst Aerator II

Berserker II x5

Certainly, I can swap mods to make it fit, but they are ALL a nerf. Is that the aim here? Make people reduce the power on their hulls via a clubbing via fitting?

What meaningful choice am I presented with? Because as it stands it is "weaker fit, or offline mods". Not really much of a choice there guys.
IT is because the dual prop, eats up most of your CPU. CCP will tell you taht you have to make a choice and compromises.

Also, most frigate fits (the vast majority of them) are so very tight on CPU that a Co-Proc or CPU rig will become mandatory. PVP ones taht is, PVE frigs (and othr ships) are less demanding in CPU.

That being said, a lot of my ships ends up very tight on CPU, especially missile ships, and will become obsolete. Heck, even with bling I have CPU trouble fitting a MWD Fleet Typhoon.

Join Celtic Anarchy!

Sneaky bastard.