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My Response to Force Auxiliary and Fighter Skillbooks - Now rant-Free!

First post
Author
Loroseco Kross
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#1 - 2016-02-10 07:09:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Loroseco Kross
ISDs locked my last thread for ranting. Fair enough, it was a rant. I have re-worded my argument to be more constructive, highlighting the valid points I made

I currently own 2 perfect Archon pilots (T2 triage, Amarr carrier 5, fighters 5), meaning I have two characters that can use a carrier both for a DPS role and for a triage tole. However, yesterday this appeared in markets across New Eden. The price, I'm not too concerned about. It's the training that gets to me.

Now, let's do some rough maths. A pilot with perfect remaps and +4s trains about 2600sp/hour. To get my two Archon pilots to the same utility they have now, I will have to train for a total of 156 days on both accounts. That's 6 PLEX, or 33 skill injectors. So either 7.2bil per account if I'm patient enough to train, or 15-20bil in injectors (300k sp per injector). This means that I personally will have to choose between spending 30-40bil ($250 of Aurum) or just spending 14-15bil on PLEX and then waiting around for 5 months.

Bear in mind that I only have Amarr carrier 5 on my two pilots. Anyone with all carriers to 5 will have to train for 328 days to maintain the same utility post-Citadel that they currently have today.

While I hope that this was just a poor balance decision, observations like this have been made recently, and one can only wonder if this is deliberate. This seems to me like a cash grab, abusing players such as myself that are devoted enough to the game to bear with the changes and buy our way back to wear we were.

Any devs who read this - any comment? I may well be wrong about accusing you of making this a cash grab, and I welcome being proven wrong by a logical explanation to these changes, or plans to look at skills again. My Reddit thread highlighting this issue has gained a fair bit of traction, so I'd say this is an issue you definitely cannot ignore.

tl;dr New skill training is a terrible idea, possibly even a cash grab

I'm an acquired taste.

Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#2 - 2016-02-10 07:13:38 UTC
This one will be locked for ranting and reopening a locked thread.
Loroseco Kross
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#3 - 2016-02-10 07:22:58 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
This one will be locked for ranting and reopening a locked thread.


My interpretation of the rule is that just copy-pasting a locked thread is forbidden. In the "rant" section of the rules, it explains that rants are locked due to non-constructive comments. I have since obeyed this rule and expressed my opinions on the subject in a more constructive and less angry manner.

And while this could be interpreted as a rant, it is still a very valid issue that needs to be discussed.

I'm an acquired taste.

Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2016-02-10 07:44:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Kolonko
I fully agree with op. I have all four races carriers trained ony two chars. Most too 4. Sone to 5. Both chars triage 5 fighters 5. I have tons of skilling ahead of me to be back in place i was before the change will hit.

as a paying customer (i mean, someone paid for my plexes) this only means that ccp is going for a cash grab on me. When citadel expansion hit i will have my lawyer (i dont have a lawyer) write me some nice petition.
Jordanna Bauer
Taylor Swift Fanclub
#5 - 2016-02-10 08:42:35 UTC
This is a valid issue, please do not lock.

"If you can fly it now, you can fly it tomorrow" no longer applies. Trying to use "but it's a totally new ship class!" as a counterargument is garbage because the roles our skillpoints are invested in are now partially wasted no matter how you look at it. This needs to be revisited before the capital skill point refunds go out, because once that happens, there's no easy way to go back.
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#6 - 2016-02-10 08:49:33 UTC
They did make a new skill and they did make it so that you can get your carrier SP refunded if you are primarily in the healbot mode...

I for one have had carrier 5, fighter 5, triage 5 for about the last 100M sp on FireFrenzy and will now need to go and get FORCE AUX to make it so that i keep my current utility, but i am entirely satisfied with how CCP has handled it. Mainly because i am already running out of skills i might actually want to have anyways but also because they allowed me to turn the DPS half of my carrier into a force aux if i wanted too...
Lugh Crow-Slave
#7 - 2016-02-10 09:04:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
My main issue is not how they are handling the transition but that a ship (fax) with half the use of a current carrier is still a x14 skill.

With the carrier skill this was reasonable not only was it the only capital skill that trained two ships one of those two was a super. There is no reason the new fax should also be x14.


My other issue is the weapon system for carriers just got 2x harder to train (3x of we are not counting supers) with the two new fighter skulls being placed at x12. For context a dreads guns are only x7 and with the exclusion of the Phoenix you only need to treason one x7 skill to get full use out of your guns not 4 x12




EDIT:

to explain my reasoning as to why this is bad beyond just not wanting to need to wait so long.


CCP said they wanted players to have more choice when choosing a first capital so they gave dreads a smb but making it so much harder to train carriers (and to a lesser extent fax(hull x14 then two x10 RR skills)) than dreads it goes against that principle
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2016-02-10 09:12:50 UTC
Carrier skills are 14x, Dreadnoughts are 12x. As long as they're splitting Carriers into two skills, why not make both cheaper, say, 10x? Could refund players the unused 2/7ths of their Carrier SP (leaving the skills trained to the same level) and they could optionally spend the refunded SP on a Force Auxiliary skill should they choose to. This would reduce the increase in total SP cost from +14x to just +6x.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Loroseco Kross
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#9 - 2016-02-10 09:16:17 UTC
FireFrenzy wrote:
They did make a new skill and they did make it so that you can get your carrier SP refunded if you are primarily in the healbot mode...

I for one have had carrier 5, fighter 5, triage 5 for about the last 100M sp on FireFrenzy and will now need to go and get FORCE AUX to make it so that i keep my current utility, but i am entirely satisfied with how CCP has handled it. Mainly because i am already running out of skills i might actually want to have anyways but also because they allowed me to turn the DPS half of my carrier into a force aux if i wanted too...


You've got the better end of this deal. I am most certainly not running out of things to train. And now my plans for dualboxing Sins and dunking renters will have to be put off for another 6 months

I'm an acquired taste.

Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2016-02-10 09:26:51 UTC
I'm going to unsub my carrier pilot until this gets fixed.
Robert Dalentis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2016-02-10 09:33:38 UTC
It is really upsetting to see a blatant cash grab like this.

Certainly grandfathering us into these skills is a poor idea (screws over newbros who dont have the skills) but hot damn, it really is not in line with other capitals for us to train this much to simply get to the point carrier pilots were at before... the multipliers on the proposed skills are ridiculously high.

CCPlease

Lack of intelligence officer

Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2016-02-10 10:06:36 UTC
+1 to OP.

Also (I'll eat my hat if I'm wrong) but grandfathering/SP reimburse is 100% dead in the water thanks to the disgrace that is skill extractors. You'll never see anything grandfathered again, ever. Never ever.


There is absolutely no compelling reason why FAX cannot stem from the existing carrier skill. Its pre-reqs are reasonable, its rank is fitting for that and if the name really upsets people that much then rename it to racial capital support ships and flip dreads to racial capital siege ships.

I get that CCP want them to be viewed as two different ships and that's fine, but that is not a reason to add new skills. Zero, beyond OCD on the part of the ship tree boys. Get over it.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#13 - 2016-02-10 10:23:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
1. It's just a ship nerf to carriers, be glad CCP is being nice and allowing reallocation.
2. Post in This thread with your arguments, not your own special snowflake thread.

But really, you are whining over your favourite ship receiving a well deserved nerf. It's not the first time a ships role has changed and people need to train the new hull for the actual role. And very clear breakdowns for why the new skills should exist have been placed in the proper thread by people.

And CCP is being utterly consistent with their policy, you will be able to fly the same hulls you could before the nerf. When they have removed a role and given it to a new ship, they have never given the new skill to people.
Only time they give skills is when they actually move the actual ship hull to a new skill.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#14 - 2016-02-10 10:23:44 UTC
the normal solution would be to decrease carrier/fax rank 14 skill to rank 8 (or whatever the number ), so that you will only need half of the SP you need now for carrier lvl V; with the sp reimb a player can inject the other half into fax, so voila, "what you can fly today, you can still fly after the patch" like someone, i think it was CCP Roll? used to say;

more than that, this way will also be fair with the new players, something grandfathering wasn't really;

why did CCP choose the other solution? because of CASH GRAB , that's why; no matter how you look at it, it's clear to me that "greed is good" is still as strong as ever in CCP
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#15 - 2016-02-10 10:32:11 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
I'm going to unsub my carrier pilot until this gets fixed.

Do you know how much money CCP made yesterday?

It won't get fixed cause it's working as intended...

You want CCPs attention on this matter? Start a riot and get 20% of the playerbase to unsub. Then and only then will CCP listen to the masses!
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2016-02-10 10:33:28 UTC
It's patently not a ship nerf to carriers, you ridiculous creature. That would be a hull stat pass. But we've been over this, take your schadenfreude somewhere the hell else.

CCP move roles around all the time within classes, but you know what? When cruiser lines shift roles my freaking crusier skill still works on the new ships.
Robert Dalentis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2016-02-10 10:35:04 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:


But really, you are whining over your favourite ship receiving a well deserved nerf. It's not the first time a ships role has changed and people need to train the new hull for the actual role. And very clear breakdowns for why the new skills should exist have been placed in the proper thread by people.


Nobody is complaining about the carrier being split in two. its pretty damn rare you undock a triage carrier and need to use drones, and vice versa.

What people are upset about is the new skills. We invested a certain amount of SP into a role to be able to do it, and now we are being told that we need a bit more than double of what we invested to get to the same point we were before.

Lack of intelligence officer

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#18 - 2016-02-10 10:38:06 UTC
Robert Dalentis wrote:

Nobody is complaining about the carrier being split in two. its pretty damn rare you undock a triage carrier and need to use drones, and vice versa.

What people are upset about is the new skills. We invested a certain amount of SP into a role to be able to do it, and now we are being told that we need a bit more than double of what we invested to get to the same point we were before.

And it's not the first time this has happened.
And you had a blatantly OP ship which was too powerful & easy for it's skill investment. You also invested that SP to fly a carrier hull. And can still fly a carrier hull to the same level of success.
CCP removed a role from the carrier as a needed nerf. Just because you got nerfed is not a reason for more SP, as so many people say every time a nerf happens and the few people cry about it.
Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2016-02-10 10:42:26 UTC
Mai Khumm wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
I'm going to unsub my carrier pilot until this gets fixed.

Do you know how much money CCP made yesterday?

It won't get fixed cause it's working as intended...

You want CCPs attention on this matter? Start a riot and get 20% of the playerbase to unsub. Then and only then will CCP listen to the masses!


That wan't a treat to CCP, that was just me stating what I plan to do.

I do think other people should do the same if they are unhappy with what CCP are doing but i won't be organising any protests.
Anthar Thebess
#20 - 2016-02-10 10:47:03 UTC
Welcome to EVE 2016 : No poor allowed.
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