Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Different weapons systems are better for their Alpha strike and others for their DPS. Some have good falloff, others have good optimal range. Some use capacitor, others don't.

In the end, each different weapons type has advantages and disadvantages depending on the situation; so the differences provide choice and add depth to the game.

In your comparison between pulse and projectile weapons:

Projectile: High alpha, short optimal, large falloff

Pulse: Low alpha, longer optimal, short falloff

Pulse weapons cycle relatively quickly so maintain DPS (and use capacitor), whereas projectile weapons cycle slower so don't maintain DPS (but use no capacitor, so can keep applying even under cap pressure).

So the projectile weapons will have a massive alpha strike to weaken an opponent quickly, whereas pulse weapons don't punch as hard through the tank, but maintain pressure on the tank more consistently.

Horses for courses.

the answer is simple. remove all weapons and give everyone identical gun that does the exact same thing on every ship its fitted.


ac's if given the same range as pulse again would once again be op like they once were. there a capless, lower pg, variable damage type weapon, with great tracking.

the shorter range is their downside

I agree, and I do believe that AC short range matching pulse laser range is overpowered. It's also stupid that changing ammo types does virtually nothing.



That was a nerf. Barrage has 40% falloff. It comes with a buff to autocannon base falloff, and the net result is a buff, but far smaller.

I spotted the person who doesnt use medium autocannons (at least not for kiting).

1. Medium Autocannons were OP back in the day for a multitude of reasons, range was actually not the issue so much as it was the hulls they were on. They were faster than pretty much everything else in the game. Vagabond/cynabal and 425 cane could all project well and were considerably faster than most other ships in their class or in general. Plus, in the case of the cane, it had 2 medium neuts to back it up when things got close. Then weapon rebalances happened. Blasters/lasers got a hefty rebalance, along with long range weapons. Rapid lights grew in popularity and were eventually rebalanced into their current form. Making them ideal as anti-support (a role the autocannons used to play). Adding on to this was the TE nerf which mainly only minmatar use because their ships are designed around TE. So acs took another hit.

Not to mention ships have been rebalanced and new ones added. The vaga and cyna are not the fastest ships in the game anymore. Please remember this isnt 2012 anymore and things change.


2. Please dont say autocannnons have variable damage when kiting. They dont. If you want to apply more than a frigates worth of dps at 24km+, you use barrage which locks you into explosive. Using any other ammo type will force you in closer just to apply 300dps if youre lucky. Then youre liable to be scrammed.. and this isnt a stabber, this is a vaga im talking about. Let me be clear, for anti support kiting, a caracal can do 90% of what a vagabond can as anti support and for a hell of a lot cheaper.

3. "Short range" isnt the issue, they actually have ok range, but youre operating completely in falloff. Its the application that sucks because its not consistent. Want acs to operate in falloff? Fine, but give them more falloff. The dps curve when using them at range is pathetic. Bumping base falloff up 20-30% would help and shift the dps peak in the 25-30km range, instead of 15-20km.

We dont need to buff all autocannons, mainly mediums. Small/large are in a good spot. I generally agree with what you say, power creep and such. However autocannons really lack application at range. Its not the fact autocannons are "weak" in regards to dps. Its the fact their "role" for kiting (anti-support) has been replaced by other weapon systems that either do i better or cheaper.

The stabber and vagabond are both outclassed by ships in their class or under. A nomen can consistently apply its dps at 40km and is just as fast as a vagabond. A caracal applies more dps to smaller ships and can kill them without trouble whereas the vaga or stabber need to get around 20km to apply their damage consistently. Being that close in a kiter is not a good idea. This doesnt even touch on RLML scyfi, nosprey, orthrus, cerb etc. All these ships can apply damage far easier than a vaga and still retain speed and do it cheaper or same cost as a vagabond.

Why buy/fit a 250m vagabond with 3 range mods, when it can barely push 300dps past 25km? But i can buy a caracal for 30m and apply the same dps at 50km? Or buy a nomen for 100m and get much better application?

So if we go your route and only buff the ships, how would you fix the vaga and stabber to project decently?

Dude I've been primarily pvping in sleipnirs for over a year. Medium auto cannons work really really well. You're problem is you're comparing HM and RLML damage application to auto cannon damage application. Auto cannons are short range brawling weapons. Auto cannons aren't kiting anti-support. You wanna hit at 40km use arty. You wanna brawl w/ good tracking use auto cannons. All the stuff you said out perform it at range are RLML boats - I say 'of course'.

I think the vaga is fast so you can close in and wonk stuff and then burn away. No auto cannon platform will ever be able to orbit at 40km and break things. That's not what auto cannons are supposed to do.

There is no 'fix' to make the vaga and stabber project decently. For the love of all that's fun and exciting will you risk averse ninnies STOP trying to turn every ship in eve into some P*ssified kiting ship. Man the **** up and get in scram range if you want to use auto cannons. Hit show info on the weapon, note what the OPTIMAL range is and do your best to comply with the manufacturers recommendations.

Do you put bacon in your toaster and get all pissy when it doesn't turn out right?

TL/DR This everything must kite crap is getting out of hand.

Cool story about the sleip. Thing about the sleip is it has a 100% damage bonus to projectiles and a 50% falloff bonus. Something every other minmatar ship does not have. It also has 5 mids, meaning you can brawl far easier since you can fit 2 XLASBs plus scram/web. Of f---ing course autocannons will work well on that ship. Any moron can fly a sleip and get kills with it. It is the best projectile platform in the game.

Autocannons are not short range. Blasters are short range. Autocannons are medium range. Which means dps is meant to be in the 20-30km range. Its not, its in the 15-20km range. Bumping applied damage up to 20-30km wont take much but alittle more base falloff.

I guess you werent around or forgot when vagas and cynabal were kiting everywhere. Thats what the ships were designed around. Otherwise why have the falloff bonus. If as you "think", the vaga is fast to be heavy tackle, what purpose would a falloff bonus provide. Wouldnt a... oh i dont know, tracking bonus be much more suited for a brawling ship? Especially for something like a vaga that cant normally fit a web since it has 4 mids to work with (2 for tank/utility duties).

If you read before sperging about kiters and otherwise crying about the bad kiters touching your no no parts. I said to shift the dps curve from 15-20km, to 25-30km. NOWHERE did i mention acs project full damage to 40km. Stop trying to put words in my mouth.

Also, i rarely kite (except arty cane) and much prefer to brawl. I often fly BC/BS and command ships because theyre funner. The vaga is a pisspoor brawler and i can show you a deimos that will walk all over any vaga fit cheaper. Its not cost effective to make a vaga a brawler. Unless you want to **** money away for the "lulz" and to be a special snowflake because you can brawl in a vaga.

Also i heard about this new thing about HICs having 40km scrams. Might want to jump on those with the amount of salt flowing about kiters.

We definitely need a reason to try other ammo types. But all balancing should be done bearing ammo, guns and hull bonuses in mind. I'd say ACs should hit further but cost more grid to fit (mostly talking mediums) meanwhile arties should be easier to fit. That would help balance ship hulls and how much grid they are allocated at the same time.

its definitely the ammo thats the issue on all guns really, reducing scorch/barrage to 40% didn't really change anything,
i think smaller bonuses are better maybe 25%-30% cap on buffs or nerfs too any stat. then all the inbetween ammo could maybe have multiple bonuses too give better choices

I don't think anybody wants every weapon system to be the same.
however I think that medium ACs are pretty hard to justify on most ships.
If you decide to use autocannons on your ship you will need to have a plan to use your damage type selection and rather good tracking and small signature that most minmtar ships have.

As it is today, it is fairly easy to do it in 1vs1 situations.
for example, in a stabber fleet you can "fairly easily" get under an omen navy or augoror navy's guns even though those ships definitely have the weapons to fight back. And then you can choose your damage type to best fit your enemy's resist profile.
Unfortunately for minmatar pilots, in fleets those arguments are useless. Nobody will care if you can mitigate one or two guys dps while the rest of the enemy fleet shoots you down.

In fleets a good ship can manage to kite like the zealoth or the cerberus, or they can brawl like a sacrilege or a brutix.

in this overly simplified metagame we are playing the auttocanons are in between these two doctrines.
They CAN'T KITE. It is absolutely clear, they can't. Even with barage your damage is just terrible when you are 20kms away.
They are WEAK AT BRAWLING. With medium ACs your average dps will be around 450 in optimal, far lower than the usual 500-600dps that blasters can offer

HOWEVER ACs are a pretty convenient weapon to use.
- They don't use CAP
- They have a pretty permissive range (unlike blasters)
- They have a sweet damage type selection with EMP, Fusion and Phased Plasma

I think any modification on these guns must go towards an even more convenient weapon type.
You don't need to be at point blank range to apply your damage, and you need to be able to do it pretty well on both armor and shield tanked ships

My proposition:

Triple all autocannons optimal range
When combined with the -50% optimal of EMP/Fusion/Phased Plasma, you get these range:
425mm Rupture 1.5+12.9km -> 4.5+12.9km
425mm Muninn 2.25+12.9km-> 6.25+12.9km
425mm Hurricane Fleet issue 1.88+16.1km -> 5.64+16.1km
200mm Firetail 0.75+6.19km -> 2.25+6.19km
800mm tempest 3+24.8km -> 9+24.8km

If you apply this modification to the ammunition, you will get overpowered artilleries and you don't want to buff artileries range.
even if I think artilleries need a little bit of love, if you simply remove the range penalty of T1 ammo med arties will have a far too good range and you will see hurricanes shooting down inties at 50 km range with no difficulty.

I think by simply giving autocanons some more optimal range, people will try to play them more intelligently.
Battleships will do their full dps at scram range and frigates will finally have the weapons to fairly fight blasters.
For Cruisers and Battlecruisers it will not bring back the kitting vagabond but it will help in brawling fleets compared to blasters.