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Tibus Heth. Great Caldari Hero ? Or, Greatest Caldari Hero ?

Author
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#201 - 2016-01-27 00:01:55 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
Admiral Noir showed the true feelings of the Gallente towards us when he flew his ship deliberately into Ishukone station. With the sole purpose of destroying the economic summit , the chance of our two nations working together , having closer and better relations.

It was about peace, not economy as far as I remember.

TomHorn wrote:
Whether Admiral Noir was working solely alone , or was part of a political plot by the Federation hardliners, nobody knows. The official story was he was working alone.

He had crew and officers. If that was baseline carrier, they could have simply arrested him to prevent his action. They didn't.
Besides, official story was made up by gallente. In fact we know that A. Noir was Admiral of Federal Navy and was given a supercarrier by the same Federation Navy. Both him and his tools were belonging to this Navy and the story about "working alone" seems not likable.

TomHorn wrote:

If we want to bring an end to the occupation of our homeworld again, we may have to resort to taking it again by force.

We must resort to taking it again by force.
Gallentean swines should not be allowed to stay their dirty feet on the ground that they have been desecrating for so long.

The Federation must be destroyed!

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#202 - 2016-01-27 01:13:00 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
TomHorn wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
It clearly shows that gallente must not be trusted, and just a document from them that they pass the planet to us completely won't be enough. The Federation must be stopped and disarmed to prevent their further backstabbing. We must keep fighting them until we render them unable to invade into any of our worlds.


We cannot, in good faith, ask for anything that is not ours and which is not necessary for the security of the State. We don't need our capital to be on the Homeworld. We don't need to control the space around Home. We don't need to own the space between New Caldari Prime and Home. All we need is unfettered access to Home for our people and control over the planet itself.

Anything else is expansionism by conquest - expressly against the wishes of Cold Wind and the Way itself.

I believe it's advisable that we at least be at peace with the Federation. Let the expansionist powers of the Cluster intrigue and fight amongst themselves. Let those of us interested in growth, trade and industry see to our own worlds. I believe that there is a big difference between self-defence or even deterrence and attacking people because of inanities like ideological differences.

Well said.


You do believe , that the continued occuaption of Caldari Prime is necessary for the Federation James ? I believe that is your stance on the situation James.
I do indeed, but that doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate Pieters sentiments.

If we all would speak with more care, we might foster that illusive trust I alluded to earlier.

Just because I don’t trust the State to keep any treaty, doesn’t mean I don’t trust some people within the State, especially when I suspect they speak wisely and truthfully.

We must always guard against the absolute certainty that we are right, when considering the opinions of honorable others.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#203 - 2016-01-27 01:19:39 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
Admiral Noir showed the true feelings of the Gallente towards us when he flew his ship deliberately into Ishukone station. With the sole purpose of destroying the economic summit , the chance of our two nations working together , having closer and better relations.

Whether Admiral Noir was working solely alone , or was part of a political plot by the Federation hardliners, nobody knows. The official story was he was working alone.

The real political power in the Federation , is still political hardliners , and lets be charitable and say , they dont like us !
We shouldnt expect them to be doing us favours anytime soon.

If we want to bring an end to the occupation of our homeworld again, we may have to resort to taking it again by force.

As your so found of questions let me ask you one. So using your logic then the Federation was perfectly justified in punishing the 'whole', after a 'few' imploded a certain domed city....?
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#204 - 2016-01-27 01:23:25 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
Selective memory, Vero. That economic summit was in fact praised by Heth, uncharacteristically. Indeed, Gariushi-haan later stated he intended to hold Heth to the peace process. And we all know what followed.


And the point of this is what? The article itself describes his statement as a "turnaround," and in the end he rejected the aid package in favor of an invasion. My description of his actions was accurate and relevant without unpacking every nuance of context.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Are you seriously referring to the Empyrean War as if it were some sort of usual war of conquest? We went into Placid and Essence because you went into Black Rise - and it is your own leaders who put Placid and Essence up for grabs in the first place, just as it is our leaders who put Black Rise up for grabs.

Again. Heth is gone. The provists are gone. Negotiations are underway and if I don't take your words as the damning proof you intend them to be, I'll notice you're not in a hurry to quit Black Rise, either. But that's the Federation all over, no?


I'm just reminding everyone of what actually happened all that time ago, since that doesn't seem to be part of the conversation. Everyone these days thinks of the Empyrean War as it is today: the "Pendulum" that never ceases swinging. In the beginning though, it was different. The State Protectorate swept the Warzone in its initial offensive, catching the FDU completely disorganized and unprepared. They then consolidated their position and held entire constellations of Gallente Space, essentially the entire contested area under the CEWPA, for years. The Caldari were dominant at that time, until certain Gallente organizations organized themselves enough to strike back and begin a campaign of liberation.

It also bears pointing out that although the Gallente have twice swept State forces from the Warzone, we have never attempted to hold such vast swaths of Caldari territory as the Caldari did for those early years. Part of that is obviously that the nature of the war had changed and such a thing wasn't as possible, but it is also true that the Federal Militia did not care to try.

The point is this: why should the Gallente ever believe what you're saying about the State not desiring anything but Home? Its actions have spoken otherwise. What you have taken from us by war was offered to you in peace, and our wars have never contained themselves to Caldari Prime.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#205 - 2016-01-27 01:23:40 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

Gallentean swines should not be allowed to stay their dirty feet on the ground that they have been desecrating for so long.

The Federation must be destroyed!
Ah ha! progress, see she actually used a capital 'G' in referring to us, where as normally she used a lower case 'g'. I think this is a subtle psychological indication that Ms. Kim is coming around to a more pragmatic philosophy of thought.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#206 - 2016-01-27 01:52:46 UTC  |  Edited by: TomHorn
James Syagrius wrote:
TomHorn wrote:
Admiral Noir showed the true feelings of the Gallente towards us when he flew his ship deliberately into Ishukone station. With the sole purpose of destroying the economic summit , the chance of our two nations working together , having closer and better relations.

Whether Admiral Noir was working solely alone , or was part of a political plot by the Federation hardliners, nobody knows. The official story was he was working alone.

The real political power in the Federation , is still political hardliners , and lets be charitable and say , they dont like us !
We shouldnt expect them to be doing us favours anytime soon.

If we want to bring an end to the occupation of our homeworld again, we may have to resort to taking it again by force.

As your so found of questions let me ask you one. So using your logic then the Federation was perfectly justified in punishing the 'whole', after a 'few' imploded a certain domed city....?


No James i dont agree, they already started punishing the whole before the Nouvelle Rouvenor incident with the blockade. The blockade led to all out hostilities on the planet, which led to Caldari partisans sabotage of the glass dome. You reap what you sow.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#207 - 2016-01-27 03:39:40 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
You reap what you sow.
Prophetic words.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#208 - 2016-01-27 07:21:34 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

Gallentean swines should not be allowed to stay their dirty feet on the ground that they have been desecrating for so long.

The Federation must be destroyed!
Ah ha! progress, see she actually used a capital 'G' in referring to us, where as normally she used a lower case 'g'. I think this is a subtle psychological indication that Ms. Kim is coming around to a more pragmatic philosophy of thought.

I probably should have started the sentence with a different word...

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#209 - 2016-01-28 16:14:33 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Hey, I have brownies! I'll share them if we can stop arguing.

In order to stop arguing you have to admit that Tibus Heth was the Greatest Caldari Hero.

No brownies for you. Also, I think Pieter is the greatest Caldari Hero.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#210 - 2016-01-28 16:15:24 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Hey, I have brownies! I'll share them if we can stop arguing.

I'm clearly not arguing, can I have one?

And Heth was the greatest caldari hero..... Coming from someone who could only name a few and really doesn't have a place discussing Caldari history/ heros. Can the arguing stop now?

You may have two.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Satja Askariin
Adamantine Tactical Acquisitions
#211 - 2016-01-28 20:16:43 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Hey, I have brownies! I'll share them if we can stop arguing.

I'm clearly not arguing, can I have one?

And Heth was the greatest caldari hero..... Coming from someone who could only name a few and really doesn't have a place discussing Caldari history/ heros. Can the arguing stop now?

You may have two.


And I didn't argue once.... how many do I get?
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#212 - 2016-01-28 20:29:24 UTC
Satja Askariin wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Hey, I have brownies! I'll share them if we can stop arguing.

I'm clearly not arguing, can I have one?

And Heth was the greatest caldari hero..... Coming from someone who could only name a few and really doesn't have a place discussing Caldari history/ heros. Can the arguing stop now?

You may have two.


And I didn't argue once.... how many do I get?

Want one of mine?
Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#213 - 2016-01-28 21:00:03 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
[quote=Diana Kim]No brownies for you. Also, I think Pieter is the greatest Caldari Hero.


I'm in the process of moving to Hek (because it occurred to me that I was going about this all wrong), and I've let a lovely belle epoque flat on a shady cul-de-sac in the Krusual superstructure (because I heart the Krusual).

There is a delightful Vherokior pearl tea shop on the ground floor. I mention this because just now, right this very five minutes ago, I asked Madame Barra what it meant for a brownie to be "gluten free." She growled something in her native tongue and shook a tiny fist at the Quafe sign across the boulevard, then said "it means twice as much sugar."

I ordered two. And a vente jasmine tea with smoked walnut pearls. Vherokior pearl tea is not as refined as the stuff you get on Gallifey, but it packs two reverse punches to the gut and a spinning dragon boot to the head.

Where was I?

Pieter! Right, he does have a certain glow, though I suspect the poor thing would be embarrassed to be labelled heroic.

Reflecting back on events, while I remain a fan of Mr. Heth's, my thoughts turn to the admiral in command of the leviathan (neither names of which am I currently able to recall) that crashed on Caldari Prime. Though vilified at various times by all sides, she was in fact determined to see a hopeless situation through to its grim conclusion. Both her sacrifice and the absence of amassed personal glory are true hallmarks of the Caldari, and I would be inclined to nominate her as that civilization's greatest hero - at least in the current era.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#214 - 2016-01-28 21:06:20 UTC
Admiral Visera Yanala of the Titan Shiigeru.

And yes, I agree with you, she is most definitely the biggest contemporary Caldari hero, with Mathias Sobaseki and Yakiya Tovil-Toba as largest historical Caldari heroes.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Satja Askariin
Adamantine Tactical Acquisitions
#215 - 2016-01-28 21:18:35 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Satja Askariin wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Hey, I have brownies! I'll share them if we can stop arguing.

I'm clearly not arguing, can I have one?

And Heth was the greatest caldari hero..... Coming from someone who could only name a few and really doesn't have a place discussing Caldari history/ heros. Can the arguing stop now?

You may have two.


And I didn't argue once.... how many do I get?

Want one of mine?


Yes and I'm holding you to that.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#216 - 2016-01-28 22:19:02 UTC
When I get them ill be sure to pass one along to you.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#217 - 2016-01-29 03:36:30 UTC
Gosakumori Noh wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
[quote=Diana Kim]No brownies for you. Also, I think Pieter is the greatest Caldari Hero.


I'm in the process of moving to Hek (because it occurred to me that I was going about this all wrong), and I've let a lovely belle epoque flat on a shady cul-de-sac in the Krusual superstructure (because I heart the Krusual).

There is a delightful Vherokior pearl tea shop on the ground floor. I mention this because just now, right this very five minutes ago, I asked Madame Barra what it meant for a brownie to be "gluten free." She growled something in her native tongue and shook a tiny fist at the Quafe sign across the boulevard, then said "it means twice as much sugar."

I ordered two. And a vente jasmine tea with smoked walnut pearls. Vherokior pearl tea is not as refined as the stuff you get on Gallifey, but it packs two reverse punches to the gut and a spinning dragon boot to the head.

Where was I?

Pieter! Right, he does have a certain glow, though I suspect the poor thing would be embarrassed to be labelled heroic.

Reflecting back on events, while I remain a fan of Mr. Heth's, my thoughts turn to the admiral in command of the leviathan (neither names of which am I currently able to recall) that crashed on Caldari Prime. Though vilified at various times by all sides, she was in fact determined to see a hopeless situation through to its grim conclusion. Both her sacrifice and the absence of amassed personal glory are true hallmarks of the Caldari, and I would be inclined to nominate her as that civilization's greatest hero - at least in the current era.


I don't know about 'heroic', but I am under the opinion that Pieter is the most quintessential of Caldari, being the (sometimes ruthless) pragmatic that he is.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#218 - 2016-01-29 05:37:52 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
I don't know about 'heroic', but I am under the opinion that Pieter is the most quintessential of Caldari, being the (sometimes ruthless) pragmatic that he is.


You silver-tongued devil, you. Also, you are completely correct in that I cannot be a hero - I'm not dead yet.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#219 - 2016-01-29 07:20:00 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:


I don't know about 'heroic', but I am under the opinion that Pieter is the most quintessential of Caldari, being the (sometimes ruthless) pragmatic that he is.


Essentially, yes.

A stalwart Patriot who nonetheless seems to understand the viewpoints of Practicals and Liberals, who maintains an even temperament in spite of provocation, and remains above the sordid arguments that more passionate Caldari allow themselves to be drawn into.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Teinyhr
Ourumur
#220 - 2016-01-29 07:23:01 UTC
Dying and heroism need not be mutually exclusive. However heroism is a very outdated concept if we consider the fact that often someones hero is someone elses terrorist or oppressor.