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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Imperial Outlaws [I.LAW] Commence Operations

First post
Author
Ryven Krennel
Hopscotch
#81 - 2011-11-05 19:48:01 UTC
I love how a Matari is telling me how the Empire works, and then pleasantly dismissing me through his teeth. You would think an Amarr group opposed to slavery would be percieved as a good thing by the Matar, and that I would be battling verbally with the Amarrian conservative bloc. Instead, I am being grilled by the Matari. Who knew? There's just no way to talk with your people, is there?

"Oh, good, we're surrounded.  That makes this easy."

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#82 - 2011-11-05 19:53:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Arkady Sadik
Ryven Krennel wrote:
I love how a Matari is telling me how the Empire works
Having worked there for over two decades, I do have some insight.

Quote:
You would think an Amarr group opposed to slavery would be percieved as a good thing by the Matar
Oh, yes.

The problem here is, though, that your words are opposed to slavery, while your actions promote it.

You are at war with my nation, you know. Your pilots have tried to conquer our systems, and your Empire wishes to eradicate our Republic.

What do you want?

A hug?
Eran Mintor
Cretus Incendium
#83 - 2011-11-05 20:49:01 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Ryven Krennel wrote:
I love how a Matari is telling me how the Empire works
Having worked there for over two decades, I do have some insight.

Quote:
You would think an Amarr group opposed to slavery would be percieved as a good thing by the Matar
Oh, yes.

The problem here is, though, that your words are opposed to slavery, while your actions promote it.

You are at war with my nation, you know. Your pilots have tried to conquer our systems, and your Empire wishes to eradicate our Republic.

What do you want?

A hug?


Mr. Sadik,

Your logic that we promote slavery because we defend the Amarr Empire is like saying you promote prostitution or other actions of your relatives simply because you defend and protect them. We have our reasons for being in the Empire, and furthermore, our reasons for being in the militia, and a lot of it happens to do with protecting what is close to us. Slavery is an ugly bit of the Empire, but to abandon the Empire because of its misgivings would be irresponsible. The Empire must be changed from the inside, because I can tell you all the work that you, the Minmatar militia, and I used to do has done very little to change the Empire's stance on slavery or anything else, for that matter.

The Empire must be defended. The stance of many in the Republic is no less free of sin or guilt than some slavers from the Empire; Minmatar everywhere have the desire to see the Empire and all it's people burn with no chance of mercy. Such longing for vengeance and love of hatred is just as disgusting to me, as is slavery in the Empire.

So yes, look in the mirror is all I'm saying.

Now, as to our "actions", well, I'll let you see for yourself. But yes, all this posturing and words on these forums can be quite tiring and pointless. I'll see you in space.
Ryven Krennel
Hopscotch
#84 - 2011-11-05 20:59:28 UTC
Yes, of course. Remind me again, why we are fighting? Oh, right! Someone dropped a titan in Amarrian sovereign space. I forget who that was. Hold on, it'll come to me. Oh, right. The Minmatar. So, yes, we are in your systems, fighting. Which is a standard response to an invasion, chemical attacks, and insurrections.

This is where you go to the moral high ground and say nuh uh, Amarr started it X number of centuries ago blah blah. The truth is, we were mostly alright until that damnable surprise attack from your people.

"Oh, good, we're surrounded.  That makes this easy."

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#85 - 2011-11-05 21:06:56 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
Your logic that we promote slavery because we defend the Amarr Empire is like saying you promote prostitution or other actions of your relatives simply because you defend and protect them.
Yes, if you defend the pimps from harm, you support prostitution. More specifically, if there is a group of pimps abusing and exploiting prostitutes, and you defend them from harm, you support that abuse and exploitation.

Does that surprise you?

Quote:
Slavery is an ugly bit of the Empire, but to abandon the Empire because of its misgivings would be irresponsible. The Empire must be changed from the inside, because I can tell you all the work that you, the Minmatar militia, and I used to do has done very little to change the Empire's stance on slavery or anything else, for that matter.

The Empire must be defended. The stance of many in the Republic is no less free of sin or guilt than some slavers from the Empire; Minmatar everywhere have the desire to see the Empire and all it's people burn with no chance of mercy. Such longing for vengeance and love of hatred is just as disgusting to me, as is slavery in the Empire.
See, this is the sensible (and honest) argument.

What you are saying is that you defend the status quo of the Empire against an invasion (including trying to conquer Republic space, as is only sensible in a war) because you prefer to retain the Empire as is over the Empire being destroyed by an invasion. You would then still like to change the Empire, but you want to change it on your own terms.

And if that means that the free Minmatar will all be enslaved and the Republic destroyed, then that is an acceptable collateral damage to you. Acceptable, because the defense of the Empire is more important to you.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#86 - 2011-11-05 21:07:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Arkady Sadik
Ryven Krennel wrote:
This is where you go to the moral high ground
I'm not interested in any moral high ground.

Are you saying that you are against slavery only so you can claim some kind of moral high ground?

Edit: Actually, let me expand on that. I wasn't arguing about whose fault this war was, I wasn't telling you that you are doing wrong for fighting for your nation (quite to the contrary, even). All I said was that you can not claim to work against slavery when you fight for the Empire. You can't have both. You have to decide. You decided for the Empire - and that is fully understandable. But you have to live with that decision.
Ryven Krennel
Hopscotch
#87 - 2011-11-05 21:37:13 UTC
And I am saying that you are presenting a false dichotomy. You can fight for the Empire AND against slavery. You saying otherwise doesn't make it otherwise. What the organization, 24IC promotes is its own business. Their goals and our goals are not identical. I choose to defend the Empire. That does not equal support it blindly. Change is already happening. I simply request that you stop presenting black and white binary situations. These are not black and white topics.

Also, please refrain from dictating to me what my options are. Take another long look and maybe you will find a third option.

"Oh, good, we're surrounded.  That makes this easy."

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#88 - 2011-11-05 22:31:02 UTC
Ryven Krennel wrote:
You can fight for the Empire AND against slavery.
Every victory you win for the Empire promotes slavery.

You saying otherwise does not make it so.
Ryven Krennel
Hopscotch
#89 - 2011-11-05 22:52:33 UTC
Look at the ego on you. Huge. Still so absolutist. I can't have a debate with you if you refuse to even concieve of other possibilities.

"Oh, good, we're surrounded.  That makes this easy."

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#90 - 2011-11-05 23:13:37 UTC
Ryven Krennel wrote:
Look at the ego on you. Huge. Still so absolutist. I can't have a debate with you if you refuse to even concieve of other possibilities.
You know, that answer is somewhat amusing, considering I was paraphrasing your last post.

I think we can at this point agree to disagree, though.

I do not see how you can fight for the 24th Imperial Crusade, fight for the conquest of the Republic, and at the same time claim to not be supporting slavery. If the Empire ever conquers the Republic, I doubt they will ask you about what they should do with the people they conquered.

Considering we both have exchanged our arguments now, neither side has convinced the other, and this has started to get insulting - I think it's time to stop the debate.

Have a nice day.
Ryven Krennel
Hopscotch
#91 - 2011-11-05 23:29:43 UTC
Good call. It's long past "starting" to get insulting. You've been subtly insulting me for several posts now. And vice versa. That's fine and dandy.

You have a nice day as well.

"Oh, good, we're surrounded.  That makes this easy."

Kithrus
Tzedakah
#92 - 2011-11-05 23:30:38 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Ryven Krennel wrote:
Look at the ego on you. Huge. Still so absolutist. I can't have a debate with you if you refuse to even concieve of other possibilities.
You know, that answer is somewhat amusing, considering I was paraphrasing your last post.

I think we can at this point agree to disagree, though.

I do not see how you can fight for the 24th Imperial Crusade, fight for the conquest of the Republic, and at the same time claim to not be supporting slavery. If the Empire ever conquers the Republic, I doubt they will ask you about what they should do with the people they conquered.

Considering we both have exchanged our arguments now, neither side has convinced the other, and this has started to get insulting - I think it's time to stop the debate.

Have a nice day.


No what should have ended the debate was M A D.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.

CCP Spitfire
C C P
C C P Alliance
#93 - 2012-01-10 11:22:15 UTC
OOC and off topic posts removed.

CCP Spitfire | Marketing & Sales Team @ccp_spitfire

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#94 - 2012-01-10 12:08:53 UTC
Ah the old Slavery vs Genocide debate rages on, attributing either element to groups which do not actively pursue them is pointless and rather irresponsible.

You're either fighting against slavery and supporting genocide, or supporting slavery by defending against an attempt of genocide. While I'm likely one of the last people to ever support slavery in this galaxy I'll say this for it, at least it's reversible, genocide isn't.

This argument has been done to death many times now, it seems little more than a pointless propaganda war to try and justify your own side and sleeping at night. The Amarrians aren't all slaver bodyguards who wish to continue to see people held against their will, the Matari aren't all terrorists who wish nothing but death and suffering on the Amarr.

The sooner people get that notion in their head, the sooner conflicts can die down and resolution can be made with a mutually beneficial ending. Sometimes you'd think people care more for being in a war than the actual reasons they went into it in the first place.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#95 - 2012-01-10 13:02:01 UTC
Caellach, you fell for a necroed thread. Congrats. :-)
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#96 - 2012-01-10 14:45:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Caellach, you fell for a necroed thread. Congrats. :-)


Nonsense, I was just being fashionably late!

Still stand by my points though.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

GunslingerBob
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#97 - 2012-01-10 18:17:28 UTC
TEST, as an Alliance primarily made up of Matari pilots, will be coming for you. So fight us. Meet us on the battlefield in glorious combat, and assert yourselves as the force you say you are. The "cleansing heat" of your lasers versus the shattering crash of our artillery.

The glove has been tossed, if you so dare to pick it up.

Also:

DurrHurrDurr wrote:
Nerds.
BlightedAura
Perkone
Caldari State
#98 - 2012-01-10 19:57:55 UTC
We have struggled against your foul oppression for too long Amarr! You will pay for the crimes that your fathers committed against the Matari race! Our vengeance will be sweep you aside, like insects before a mighty storm
William Westmere
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#99 - 2012-01-10 23:03:33 UTC
We will encroach and pillage your homeland like you did to the matari so long ago! The hammer of TEST has fallen, and great will be the butthurt you will receive!
Silence iKillYouu
Girls Lie But Zkill Doesn't
Pandemic Legion
#100 - 2012-01-11 10:23:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Silence iKillYouu
William Westmere wrote:
We will encroach and pillage your homeland like you did to the matari so long ago! The hammer of TEST has fallen, and great will be the butthurt you will receive!

Done that already
Welcome to the late train
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=42662&find=unread

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