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Market UI suggestion
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Hensley Jones
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1 - 2016-01-06 14:43:38 UTC
There is so much bad about it I don't know where to start. Instead of giving a lengthy idea essay, I'll just tell you guys to go check out the software that optionshouse (https://www.optionshouse.com/) uses for market transactions. It's got safeties in place to help prevent dumb mistakes. For example, if you want to sell commodity A for 1,000,000, but you type 1,000, it won't sell them to the bidder for 1,000. It won't sell for lower than the lowest bid in fact. Eve, however, will sell it at that price, even if all the orders are bidding higher than that. Stupid! Why does EVE even allow this to happen?

The market UI has been terrible since I started playing in 2007, and now that I'm starting to use it for regular trading it's getting more and more frustrating to deal with. Please look at some examples of good trading software and try to emulate it.

A quick question: does the the client send every keystroke to the server when you are inputting numbers into the various fields? It seems like this is the case, as when it is primetime, or laggy, there is a huge increase in how often I see numbers appear in a different order than what I typed, or just straight up missing characters.

I have double checked that it's not me making these errors by using a keylogger. It is definitely, without doubt, 100% the UI.
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#2 - 2016-01-06 16:44:41 UTC
Hensley Jones wrote:
It's got safeties in place to help prevent dumb mistakes.


Sweetie,

EvE needs it's citizens to make dumb mistakes. Decent players learn from them, the others will either go elsewhere or pick up a different aspect of EvE that they are good at.... or at least enjoy at being trounced.


--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."
Hensley Jones
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3 - 2016-01-21 19:39:02 UTC
Are you saying the market UI is intentionally bad in order to foster mistakes?

I don't think being hyperaware of the faults of the eve market client has anything to do with whether you are a decent player or not. A decent player would be making good market decisions, not fighting with the UI constantly. It is one thing to compete with other players, but I feel like I compete way more with the interface.

Oh and I'm not your f****** sweetie.


Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Hensley Jones wrote:
It's got safeties in place to help prevent dumb mistakes.


Sweetie,

EvE needs it's citizens to make dumb mistakes. Decent players learn from them, the others will either go elsewhere or pick up a different aspect of EvE that they are good at.... or at least enjoy at being trounced.


--Gadget
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2016-01-21 22:30:21 UTC
Checking the figure you typed in a box is hardly fighting the UI constantly, especially given the fact that we already have popup windows for putting up orders a long way off of the average value, and a colourful lil marker that compares your order with the average value.
Iain Cariaba
#5 - 2016-01-21 23:14:59 UTC
Hensley Jones wrote:
Are you saying the market UI is intentionally bad in order to foster mistakes?

Being bad at something doesn't make it broken.

Hensley Jones wrote:
I don't think being hyperaware of the faults of the eve market client has anything to do with whether you are a decent player or not. A decent player would be making good market decisions, not fighting with the UI constantly. It is one thing to compete with other players, but I feel like I compete way more with the interface.

All it takes is a brief glance to double check your numbers before hitting ok. Don't feel bad though, you're not the only one in game that has this handicap. There are others who are incapable of learning from their mistakes and feel they need someone else to make their decisions for them. The rest of us, however, don't see the need to pander to those either unwilling or incapable of correcting their errors.
Hensley Jones
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6 - 2016-01-23 11:45:14 UTC
or

maybe it's just that I expect the software to input the numbers correctly as I type them?

It's not that I can't learn. I double check my input most of the time. It's that I *shouldn't have to* because of bad software, particularly when it's a poorly conceived layout.

It seems to me that you are just a condescending fool with low standards as regards what they expect their software to do. It's ok though, it seems many people in game have this handicap.



Iain Cariaba wrote:
Hensley Jones wrote:
Are you saying the market UI is intentionally bad in order to foster mistakes?

Being bad at something doesn't make it broken.

Hensley Jones wrote:
I don't think being hyperaware of the faults of the eve market client has anything to do with whether you are a decent player or not. A decent player would be making good market decisions, not fighting with the UI constantly. It is one thing to compete with other players, but I feel like I compete way more with the interface.

All it takes is a brief glance to double check your numbers before hitting ok. Don't feel bad though, you're not the only one in game that has this handicap. There are others who are incapable of learning from their mistakes and feel they need someone else to make their decisions for them. The rest of us, however, don't see the need to pander to those either unwilling or incapable of correcting their errors.
Hensley Jones
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2016-01-23 11:52:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Hensley Jones
It is when what I am typing is correct, but the client does not put the number up as I type it. This is literally the definition of fighting with software - it not responding to the user inputs properly. As far as I understand it, this is considered a complete failure in the software industry.

That said, I realize this is a game and not a billion dollar trading company. I realize that they aren't going to have the sophistication in Eve that one would expect in commercial software. I do think, however, that getting software to respond accurately to user input is one of the most basic functions and it, if nothing else, should work properly.

Of course, maybe my standards are too high and I should accept this half-ass interface as is. I have for nearly 10 years, so why give a **** now?

Danika Princip wrote:
Checking the figure you typed in a box is hardly fighting the UI constantly, especially given the fact that we already have popup windows for putting up orders a long way off of the average value, and a colourful lil marker that compares your order with the average value.
Iain Cariaba
#8 - 2016-01-23 13:14:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Iain Cariaba
Hensley Jones wrote:
It is when what I am typing is correct, but the client does not put the number up as I type it. This is literally the definition of fighting with software - it not responding to the user inputs properly. As far as I understand it, this is considered a complete failure in the software industry.

That said, I realize this is a game and not a billion dollar trading company. I realize that they aren't going to have the sophistication in Eve that one would expect in commercial software. I do think, however, that getting software to respond accurately to user input is one of the most basic functions and it, if nothing else, should work properly.

Of course, maybe my standards are too high and I should accept this half-ass interface as is. I have for nearly 10 years, so why give a **** now?

Danika Princip wrote:
Checking the figure you typed in a box is hardly fighting the UI constantly, especially given the fact that we already have popup windows for putting up orders a long way off of the average value, and a colourful lil marker that compares your order with the average value.

Honestly, this sounds like a local machine issue, a latency issue, or even a PEBCAK. I spend some time using the market, and I don't have any of the issues you're reporting.

Also, can you follow the forum standard and write your responses under the quotes? Your post are annoying to read.
Wolfgang Jannesen
Scrapyard Artificer's
#9 - 2016-01-23 15:34:56 UTC

OP I haven't had trouble buying anything as long as I go over the market details. Honestly if you're sure you are paying attention then its an issue on your end. Otherwise... Pay attention!
Hensley Jones
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#10 - 2016-03-30 01:18:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Hensley Jones
I didn't know there was any forum standard, and in the academic forums I use replies go at the top. So that's what I do.

A latency issue I can imagine, assuming that the client is sending each individual keystroke to the server and back. Latency could explain why numbers don't appear in the order typed. If this is the case that's a ridiculous system.

This isn't a PEBCAK issue. I have a keylogger running to insure that it is indeed not me making mistakes. In fact in RL I tend to assume that errors are my fault. You know why? Because the software I work on doesn't have errors like the market UI in Eve does. With Eve it is empirically the client.

I have not submitted a single incorrect order due to my own error. Not a one. I keylog ALL market transactions so if there are any errors, I can quickly go back and see what the problem is.

The "caution" windows etc. don't often pop up and are more or less useless.





Iain Cariaba wrote:
Hensley Jones wrote:
It is when what I am typing is correct, but the client does not put the number up as I type it. This is literally the definition of fighting with software - it not responding to the user inputs properly. As far as I understand it, this is considered a complete failure in the software industry.

That said, I realize this is a game and not a billion dollar trading company. I realize that they aren't going to have the sophistication in Eve that one would expect in commercial software. I do think, however, that getting software to respond accurately to user input is one of the most basic functions and it, if nothing else, should work properly.

Of course, maybe my standards are too high and I should accept this half-ass interface as is. I have for nearly 10 years, so why give a **** now?

Danika Princip wrote:
Checking the figure you typed in a box is hardly fighting the UI constantly, especially given the fact that we already have popup windows for putting up orders a long way off of the average value, and a colourful lil marker that compares your order with the average value.

Honestly, this sounds like a local machine issue, a latency issue, or even a PEBCAK. I spend some time using the market, and I don't have any of the issues you're reporting.

Also, can you follow the forum standard and write your responses under the quotes? Your post are annoying to read.
Hensley Jones
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2016-03-30 01:23:08 UTC
I still believe CCP has not improved the market UI because they know trading is broken as hell, and the market errors are (virtually) the only significant risks when trading.




Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:

OP I haven't had trouble buying anything as long as I go over the market details. Honestly if you're sure you are paying attention then its an issue on your end. Otherwise... Pay attention!
Hensley Jones
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#12 - 2016-03-30 01:26:20 UTC
I just did a test. I typed in a value for 1400mm meta artillery 6 times at 75-100 wpm (it varied). It put numbers out of place in 2 of the 6 instances. This happens more often when Jita is busier. This supports the idea that latency is the culprit.

If latency is indeed the culprit, based on my limited understanding of network, that means the client must be sending each individual keystroke typed into the client to the server and back to the client again. Google documents works in a similar fashion, and also has trouble with having text appear in the order typed. It is the reason I no longer use google docs.

What is the reason for having the client function in this manner?
Iain Cariaba
#13 - 2016-03-30 05:54:31 UTC
Hensley Jones wrote:
I didn't know there was any forum standard, and in the academic forums I use replies go at the top. So that's what I do.

When you click quote, where does the cursor default to? That's generally accepted as the location where you begin typing your response. Also, given the fact that everyone on this forum, with the exception of you, uses this, it makes it the standard for the forum. That you use a different standard for a different forum is all well and good, but it makes it hard for discussion to flow here. You have your comments above the comments that are below other comments, thus no continuity in the discussion.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#14 - 2016-04-01 05:30:35 UTC
I think the best Market UI upgrade would be to require 3 pvp kills/losses (total) for every 50 market transactions. The game would be much better. You could bank your pvp activities, so a good roam would give you a large number of possible transactions. Shuttles, pods and rookie ships and non combat ships wouldn't count as pvp.

Market botting would go waaaaaaay down ShockedShocked
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#15 - 2016-04-01 07:23:42 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I think the best Market UI upgrade would be to require 3 pvp kills/losses (total) for every 50 market transactions. The game would be much better. You could bank your pvp activities, so a good roam would give you a large number of possible transactions. Shuttles, pods and rookie ships and non combat ships wouldn't count as pvp.

Market botting would go waaaaaaay down ShockedShocked

And market activity as a whole would cease to exist and game activity in general would diminish because large scale traders and alliance/corp marketeers cannot PVP as much as their market activities would require.

With regards to the "UI intentionally fosters mistakes". Accuse me of tinfoil-hatting, but in recent months it appears to me that CCP intentionally introduces more and more mechanics to make it harder to not commit mistakes. The uselessness of the new camera as well as the rubbish they call new map and new probe scanning system are prime examples. Them not getting socket closed disconnects in check is another.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.