Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I love the way way you think you hold the ultimate truth!
must be nice to be so certain! :)

all the tatacis and advice you have given i knew loong before going i to this,
and still no because of that reachede the conculion that i think the wardec system is unbalanced!
you have given me no new information, and there for have not changed my point of view!

and it's common for 2 pll look at same date and reach different conclusions

and even if you state that CCP inten it be as is, i can still disagree

the difference i do it politely

Thanks for linking that, Joe.

CCP Rise outright states that wars, along with every other form of legal killing in highsec, (which by the way is just duels and killrights which make up MUCH less kills than wars do) are very good indicators of positive retention of new players.

Only slightly below that of ganking, for that matter, which is the highest.

The whole point of the video, as stated early on, is that CCP has now completely disproven the lie that PvP makes new players quit.

Do you also disagree about the temperature at which water boils?

Just curious.

That's what I'm saying. Being killed in highsec in your first few weeks in the game is correlated with resubbing.

PvP is a strong driver for positive retention.

CCP themselves has said that the assertion that PvP makes new players quit is a false one. That's the entire point of the video.

AHHHH!!!
Now we can see the flaw behind your understanding of that video.

In no way does that video imply or out right state that the statistics are limited to HS.
IF he had stated such, your theory would be closer to correct.

However, he does no make the claim nor imply that the statistics are limited to HS.
He says wardecs and any form of limited engagement in which the aggressor was not killed by CONCORD.

This consists of decs, duels, kill rights, failed attempts at claiming kill rights, bounties, failed attempts at claiming bounties, secondary aggression (such as trying to logi an aggressed person), any kills in lowsec, WH, and nullsec, and whatever other forms of engagement that would lead to no CONCORD response.
Many newbros make, have made, or will make the mistake of flying into lowsec unprepared and getting waxed. Though, this is less likely now since CCP has put in an alert when attempting to leave HS.

To push further, CCP also doesn't express what the retention rates were among the different catagories they listed.
For all we know, retention from ganks could have been 20% or less, making retention of legal kills less than that.
They also don't split the individual types of legal kills and tie retention level to each.
They also don't split no killed at all... There are likely many of the players in the unkilled group that were in a wardec, to which we still don't know how many did or didn't quit in relation to decs.

That video provides 0 information regarding decs and their relation to retention.

Except your second point here is wrong.
The video is not evidence that PvP is a strong driver for retention.
All it does is provide a bit of evidence that PvP probably doesn't make people quit. Which I never believed that the actual act of PvP made people quit anyway.

But to show that PvP causes retention would take a lot more work isolating the factors in the data and establishing them on a timeline. Without that work all we can say is that the two are related, but so are a bunch of other factors also related to player retention, including a lot of social factors.

You still didn't watch it, did you? Or do you think that suicide ganking, which is the first ******* thing he says, occurs outside of highsec?

Now just watch you spin to get around that.

I mean, I really wonder what is wrong with you when a goddamned developer gets on stage and the caption reads "people who die play longer" and you can somehow tell yourself: "Nuh uh! That doesn't apply to the thing I don't like!"

What is your damage?

To elaborate on what he's saying here, CCP hasn't claimed that PVP has a direct correlation to retention, but instead has claimed that INTERACTION as a whole increases retention.
They have even elaborated upon that point saying things like 'joining a corp has a higher chance of retention'.

There is no direct correlation between pvp and retention that isn't effected by other aspects, and it certainly doesn't dive into wardecs and their relation to ANYTHING (apart from the 70-80% number), especially retention.

Yes, i was being deliberately obtuse.
.. And yes, I succeeded that the article was likely geared to those that didn't want to fight.
However, my point was that the article presented a basis in which it seemed to actually suggest not fighting in certain parts.

Either way, i don't feel that article is all that relevant to the topic, other than to show that suggesting to fight is deliberately ignored, which is often the case among many wardec strategy guides, even those presented by deccers themselves.

Or to present an alternate hypothesis supported by exactly the same data.
People who were already staying and therefore played longer take more risks and therefore die more.

That's the issue with CCP's presentation, they haven't actually isolated cause and effect, simply linked two things which have a relationship. And you and others keep trying to use it as evidence of cause and effect, rather than just an interesting relationship.
Remember their figures include that guy who played 15 minutes, couldn't even work out how to fit his ship, and quit without ever leaving the newbie system as 'no PvP therefore no retention' and give no indication of how many hours each type of person invested into the game either. To pull up two of the issues with their analysis.

Certainly interesting data points and food for more thought and investigation, but not proof of anything at all, though a strong indicator about a couple of data points relating to accounts under 30 days. But they don't even do things like isolate suicide ganking properly. Since a better question about if ganks drive people away would be 'What percentage of players stop playing within 2 (or insert other short timeframe) hours of gameplay after being suicide ganked or witnessing one in their location.
Though I do agree it would likely still be in the minority. But note the important difference about 'witnessing'.

Anyway, it's all way off the topic of these silly 'wardec proposals' that really need locking and throwing in the trashcan for at least a year so the meta has time to start to settle after Citadels.