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Make nullsec sustainable: buff local industry and nerf transportation
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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2016-01-17 00:46:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Make nullsec industry more sustainable. Make it cheap to produce locally but expensive to ship things to/from highsec.

Why: because nullsec is not a decent place to run industry. Most denizens simply earn ISK and use that ISK to purchase and ship goods from highsec. The problem with this is that it increases the profitability of low-risk ventures which is contrary to the backbone spirit of EVE Online.


How to fix it: there are many ways, I have plenty of ideas and so do you guys. First we must convince the playerbase that there is a problem, then we can fix it.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2016-01-17 01:09:12 UTC
Psst.

They did this already.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#3 - 2016-01-17 02:21:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Doing that would end up with no industry in most of null.

Industry is only needed to the extent that it supports people that use its products.

With a lot of null being scarse on population, if an industrialist had to make a decision to make in null, but not be able to deliver to markets; versus just building close to those markets, the obvious choice would be to build closer to the markets to overcome the transport issues.

That would result in a large shift of current nullsec Industry into highsec, except for the coalitions.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#4 - 2016-01-17 02:25:50 UTC
It's already significantly cheaper to produce things in null (assuming we start from ore prices it's about 25% cheaper to build a T1 ship in null).
And they upped transport costs with doubling fuel use I believe it was, plus fatigue increasing time to transport.

There is the issue of some T2 materials not being available in some regions, which means you have to import always for T2 production which causes importing direct from the hubs for that. But unless moon goo mining becomes active in some manner, passive moon goo of all types in every area would be too good.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#5 - 2016-01-17 04:21:55 UTC
Local production is limited by economies of scale which are very present in this game.

If you think your suggestion fixes anything I suggest you take a look at what jump changes did to nullsec and ask a few people how much they like them.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#6 - 2016-01-17 05:57:46 UTC
There is no way to make null sustainable, because the population that lives there is too small to be sustainable in the first place. Nerfing transportation would just kill all deep null completely, because there would no longer be any way to supply it. It would be overrun by null alliances that live closer to high sec that have sustainable supply chains. There is no way to make null sustainable via current mechanics.
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#7 - 2016-01-17 06:08:00 UTC
The only thing that might help this is the new structures - specially with the Markets being tied to Citadels (L/XL).

If CCP, even pushes NPC stations to only have markets in "trade stations" (not taking about Jita etc,), and not every NPC station, we might see null more sustainable. As people will have to buy and sell closer to home.

But, to many mechanics right now do not support better self reliance or a need for it.
Moon goo, PI. PVE. SRP programs etc.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#8 - 2016-01-17 07:44:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
What else do you need? You have the best stations to reprocess, produce, research and invent (beating every other possible means to do these activities in the game), you just need to import a couple of moon minerals and ore minerals not available sufficiently. You can mine largely undisturbed day in/day out, you have most moon minerals available right next to you/in close vicinity. Industry in Null sec is already vastly superior to industry in High sec. There are no problems left with industry viability in Null sec, safe for one (and moon goo availability): scale and ability to provide what is needed when it is needed in the amounts needed.

Whatever mechanic you introduce, however, it cannot solve these 2 issues.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Iain Cariaba
#9 - 2016-01-17 08:45:23 UTC
Amarisen Gream wrote:
...SRP programs...

SRP is not a mechanic, as there is no in-game method of performing it. SRP is entirely meta.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#10 - 2016-01-17 10:52:34 UTC
Amarisen Gream wrote:
The only thing that might help this is the new structures - specially with the Markets being tied to Citadels (L/XL).

If CCP, even pushes NPC stations to only have markets in "trade stations" (not taking about Jita etc,), and not every NPC station, we might see null more sustainable. As people will have to buy and sell closer to home.

But, to many mechanics right now do not support better self reliance or a need for it.
Moon goo, PI. PVE. SRP programs etc.


Nullsec is sustainable already, it is just beneath some players to not fly a sooper all day long. Those cannot be helped.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#11 - 2016-01-17 14:43:12 UTC
Me thinks you have this whole thing backwards in your mind Reaver.
For the nul sec indy players I know the needs of their corp and alliance are easily met with massive amounts of unused capabilities and time. So they fill that by making stuff to export and sell in high and low sec.
Based on this limited knowledge of things nul sec industrial it seems that your idea would be make nul sec industry less viable because they would have significantly less demand for the product they produce.

Low population density in nul is the REAL Problem you face and these changes do not address that, all they will do is make everything sold in high sec even that much higher in price. Perhaps that is your goal here, just one more nerf to the high sec game play in order to try and force them into nul or low sec.

To be clear -1 to your idea.
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2016-01-19 08:00:44 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Psst.

They did this already.


/sign

-1
Garnoo
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2016-01-19 16:44:01 UTC
why would null build an industry-backbone if theres no big reason to live? we would all move to lowsec near null-entry systems instead

People are going to try to ruin your day. Get together with others, ruin their day back -  EvE
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2016-02-01 18:35:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Garnoo wrote:
why would null build an industry-backbone if theres no big reason to live? we would all move to lowsec near null-entry systems instead

Put the best industry in deep nullsec.





from this thread:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Stop thinking hisec. Making mining links on-grid ruins it for mining in nullsec you twits. No damn way you could align and warp out before an interceptor is on you.

Mining in nullsec is already a pain with not very good returns.

I already see a lot of Orcas in belts in hisec, the main issue resides in mining in lowsec and nullsec.

I think nullsec ores could use a bit more of a buff to low-end mineral yield, and a nerf to high-end mineral yield. A buff to low-end mineral yield will help to decrease the value of those minerals and enhance the production of ships from mined minerals, especially tritanium which takes up a huge percentage of ship cost. High-end minerals have a comparatively low cost in terms of time spent mining, which ensures they have a low value and nullsec miners are primarily mining low-end minerals especially if they're doing it for local production. If the high-end mineral yields were nerfed, nullsec miners would have to spend more time on those ores. This change would maintain a balance in overall time spent mining for production as well as the cost of ships while increasing the value of mining in nullsec and decreasing the value of mining in highsec.

It could further help to nerf transportation of goods from highsec to nullsec while buffing transportation across much shorter distances. I don't feel that nullsec has a population problem so much as a transportation problem. It is far cheaper in the long run to move everything via jump freighter all the way from your home system to highsec and back than it is to move it via industrial to systems a few jumps away. I'd like to see some changes that nerf long distance jump freighting and buff short-distance logistics without buffing the ability of, say, blockade runners to take long trips through nullsec. I'm not sure what the change would be, but even just a nerf to long distance logistics would increase the profit margin from local nullsec production, which would increase the number of people who are willing to take part in it. I really think nullsec can become self-sufficient but that it will never happen as long as it has the crutch of jump freighters being able to make fast, easy, and safe (speaking relative to their cargo size) trips to highsec.

I got onto a tangent and realized it is relevant to this topic.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#15 - 2016-02-01 20:09:42 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

Put the best industry in deep nullsec.

Null already has the best industry, and it's hammering highsec industry in utterly un-needed fashion.
The advantage to Null sec should be in raw resources all being available locally, not in magic efficiency in refining and production.

However for that to occur, passive moon mining has to vanish and require people in space, so that putting all the moon goo's available in one region/constellation/system doesn't kill reasons for conflict.
That will then allow the produce local, buy local, use local industry to build up, and be profitable due to lack of shipping costs.

While the current system is buy in Jita, ship to Null, take advantage of refining bonuses to out-price anyone in highsec despite shipping costs.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2016-02-01 20:29:39 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Null already has the best industry, and it's hammering highsec industry in utterly un-needed fashion.

You say that as if there's any need to maintain highsec's industrial relevance. Highsec is where industry and merchandising is easy and safe. It shouldn't be where that type of business is also the most efficient and effective.

Yes, nullsec has the best industry by base rates. But you have to consider the costs of short-range shipping. You can't just do everything in one or two systems. You need to collect resources from several systems and combine them, you need lots of manufacturers making a wide variety of goods, and you need to be shipping things constantly between systems. If you centralize your industry too much, you become a target for people who want to shoot your industrials. If you spread it out too much, your goods spend a lot more time and distance in space. Either way, it doesn't add with the losses, and thus the majority of nullsec industry is unsustainable--and I use that term as a reference to the fact that you can increase the efficiency of your local nullsec industry by outsourcing parts of the production chain to highsec. That's actually a cheaper way to do it. I'm saying it should be cheaper to keep it local even after you consider the costs of losses--assuming of course a shrewd player who is doing a good job of mitigating their losses. That should be a business avenue that is possible but quite frankly it isn't at current.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#17 - 2016-02-01 22:58:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

You say that as if there's any need to maintain highsec's industrial relevance. Highsec is where industry and merchandising is easy and safe. It shouldn't be where that type of business is also the most efficient and effective.

There is a massive need. It's called game balance. If null industry is more efficient than highsec, the null lords dominate the entire game simply by virtue of being there first, and this is bad game design. Local industry should be the most effective for all areas of space. Therefore manufacturing costs should be the same across the board (Note, I am assuming player structures here, not NPC stations, therefore they are at risk in all areas of space). Null does not need to be & should not be the best at every single thing, it should be an area rich in raw resources.

Those costs you are listing also apply to all high sec industry. If there is a serious issue with people mining/refining in NPC corps and being 'untouchable', then lets introduce an 11% mining tax & some kind of industry tax on NPC corp members also to match the bounty tax. I have no issues with that being introduced (provided it doesn't double dip on both miners and refining)




However, the real issue is nothing to do with null industry being unsustainable, or anything of the sort or competitiveness to do with high sec industry.

it's all to do with the fact that you can mine at 40/hour or rat at 60/hour and buy the ore/product you could have mined in that hour and still have isk left over. Therefore people do the most efficient method which is just make isk in null and import it all. Not because High Sec industry is too good, but because Null Ratting & then shipping is too good compared to local mining & production.

The T2 moon material distribution also causes some T2 production issues with cross region shipping needed, but that can't be changed unless people are prepared to see POS moon mining removed in favour of an active in space method.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2016-02-01 23:14:21 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
~snip~



You are now aware that it is already more efficient to produce in null than in highsec. That nullsec stations give better refines, and have a flat 5% reduction in mineral requirements for production.

And that CCP already did everything Reaver is asking for in and around the Crius expansion.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2016-02-01 23:57:37 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
There is a massive need. It's called game balance. If null industry is more efficient than highsec, the null lords dominate the entire game simply by virtue of being there first, and this is bad game design.

If industry in ANY area is more efficient than other areas, the industrial residents of the area will dominate the game--if the game has cheap long-range transportation. And it does. Why should the highsec lords get an advantage? What I'm proposing would shift the balance of power out of large groups and allow smaller groups in nullsec to produce for themselves without having to rely on a capital logistics chain to get anything done.



Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Those costs you are listing also apply to all high sec industry.

How you think the math works out doesn't change the facts. The fact is that everybody ships their materials to highsec to be processed, manufactured, sold, and sent back to nullsec as products. Almost nobody actually builds much in nullsec, and none of the few who do actually make much ISK off of the business.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2016-02-02 00:03:33 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Almost nobody actually builds much in nullsec, and none of the few who do actually make much ISK off of the business.



I do both and make billions, thanks.
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