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@Prom: I've taken the time to read this thread, and I see you are quite biased, as this idea was yours to begin with. Plenty of people with and without experience have contested these changes and stated firmly that they are either OP, or just not appropriate to the ship class.

I won't bother to argue my points anymore, as I see it is entirely useless; even though I've noticed more than a few who agre with me, among those that PvP and those that have tested the ships, or use them for PvE.

Frankly, I find your attitude relatively easy-going; but that doesn't mean I agree with your position. With exception to a small number; it seems I'm not alone in this.

I may be incorrect, but I will argue one thing: wtf do you mean the launcher frigates get insane damage. Do you mean DPS, or just volley?

Sure, if volley counts for **** at this level; they get it pretty good. But really, unless you're planning on ganking an Ibis with Alpha, I really don't get it. DPS off a Missile Hawk with level 5 skills and no other fittings is pathetic compared to any AF using Turrets under the same circumstances. The Vengeance is just as bad with Rockets; given that its extra itty-bitty DPS is at extremely short range with Rockets.

I don't need to test it on SiSi to see what is completely obvious. I'm also not alone in thinking this.

Also, not everyone has all related skills to level 5; in fact, nobody has all skills to level 5. I'm sure you may be sitting pretty with all the SP in the right places; but you're not accounting for early trainers to the AF line-up.

Sure, they'll have T2 guns; but can their other skills compensate for the penalties to Null ammo? Maybe not as bad as they were; but probably not fantastic. Also, fitting ability decreases with skill levels in the appropriate areas; so saying how can you not, is like saying you don't remember what having low SP is like.

Ideally, everyone has 5 in Engineering, Electronics, Energy Managements, etc.. Sure, I get it. But, how many ever really do?

This all changes the performance and capability of the ships; and it also changes the perspective of the pilots on either side of that equation.

Whatever.. I'm sure you'll figure it out the first year it goes live; if it happens to stay like this.

I'm all for the Overheat bonus myself. Reducing damage to the modules, is very fitting for an AF; as would be increasing resistance to ECM or TDs, or something. Save the Overheat Damage reduction for T3.

I like the MWD bonus too, as an alternative. AB would be OP, I agree.

MWD bonus is very obviously intended for Nullsec though. How could it not be?

Sure, but not only. Jaguar you are proposing would be able to fit something like web+2 mid shield extenders+ab+scram combo..Which would be nice for me as a Jag pilot, but iam not sure about others:))

And actually you are wrong on several asumptions from your previous post:

Rockets are no longer laughable - both Vengeance and Hawk are working pretty good with them on TQ

Many people actually have all skills needed to fly their ship at 5, its not something impossible to achieve. And fi you are thinking about balancing out anything you have to take the final stage into account - theres no point to balance anything for a player who has just enough skills to be allowed to sit into that particular ship.

@Alex
I'm glad we're starting to see eye to eye

The Wolf is alright, I think it's fairly balanced because in order for it to do reasonably high damage, it needs to sacrifice a fair bit of tank. T2 Matari don't make the greatest armor tankers, so I think it's a fair trade.

The Enyo is a bit tanky for what kind of damage it can do. Although for every person I smoke with it, I get easily trumped by someone else in a Wolf or something, so I'm unsure if the extra 200 armor is that bad a thing.

The Hawk, as I said elsewhere is pretty niceley balanced. It's DPS isn't obscene, and the high numbers are pretty much restricted to Kinetic.

The Jag needs more fittings and a probably some extra base shields. Slightly more powergrid and a fair bit more CPU would balance it out nicely with the rest.


@Mars
Many of those complaining that they think the changes are OP haven't actually been testing them.
I've been logged a ton of hours into sisi testing these ships, and the few that have come in with that mindset, have changed their minds.

As for the rockets, they do tons of damage. My Vengeance puts out about 210 dps before heat with my skills. That's 210 guaranteed dps into any damage type I choose. Sure it may not sound like much against larger targets, but at the frigate level that is a very strong number. Similarly, my 4 rocket Hawk does 215 in kinetic, or if i want to mix up my damage types, 240 with 3 rockets and 2 multispec lasers.

I can understand your concern with players who have a lower skill level, but the fact of the matter is that everyone is skilling up constantly. If we make ships specifically balanced for the lower SP folks in mind, then we are left with significantly more powerful ships for those with higher SP.

I think you're missing the point a bit.

The bloom bonus simply makes it possible to use the ships with an MWD.
It's 100% suicidal if you even bother attempting it right now.

Any engagement into scramble range is a one way trip, no matter what ship you're flying.
The difference is that current AFs can't even do that. The bloom change allows the ships to move about the battlefield and get to where they are needed the most.

AFs are still being sniped down by anti-support, there's nothing wrong with that.
AFs are still being shot down by multiple large targets converging on one, there's nothing wrong with that.
The same thing applies to any ship, and that's how it should be.

The changes make it so that Joe Hurricane can't nonchalantly 1 volley your AF that's MWDing parallel @ 40km.
The changes make it so that if you jump into a bubble/gate camp, you can retain some ability to escape without being popped on the spot.

What do the current TQ numbers have to do with anything?
The Vengeance and Hawk both get a 25% ROF increase, you're EFT is useless.
The numbers I gave were with zmm100 and zmr1000 implants, a single T2 bay loading accelerator, and a single BCU.

What you've displayed here is your inability to acknowledge change, inability read the op, as well as make terrible terrible fits

As for the Hawk, it's primarily a rocket ship. Yes you can fit missiles, but they kinda suck.
Although, that's no fault of the ship. Assault Missile Launchers & Standard Launchers have been in need of a boost for some time now.

@ Alex Medvedov and others

Would a Wolf with an MSE be so bad? I understand that it kind of treads on the Jaguar's current typical fitting but it doesn't marginalize the Jaguar which can consistently combine a shield tank and scram/web tackle, something the Wolf still couldn't with a shield tank. The CPU requirements of the MSE will also wear heavily on the Wolf.

Although fitting norms are unlikely to change much (instead of just being expanded upon), when these changes make it to TQ, there'll be a stronger (than before) chance of Jaguars having the opposite tank to what you might expect. Armor tanking becomes a strange but possible practice with 4 low-slot Jaguars - why not allow the Wolf the same sort of varied potential? Why should the Wolf be forced into armor tanking, instead of just suggesting it? It has always been the only Assault Ship that had a reduction in slots at any level from its T1 variant.

@ Mars Theran

Refer to the post in my signature but a more reasonable base fitting for a Vengeance of 4 Rocket Launcher IIs and a Ballistic Control II should yield 151 DPS with faction rockets. Hawk with same base fitting will do 181 DPS with faction kinetic, 121 with faction for all the other types.

Its called a Claymore, and they now make frigate signature radius extra teeny tiny, extend your non-overheated scram range to 13.5km, and give you a nice AB/MWD speed boost(and 15% agility). However getting the Claymore to keep up with frigates is another issue..

I seem to have fitting issues with my Vengence fits, and I only use meta4 launchers. Maybe I need to go back and check it out.

Just curious, has anyone actually tried orbiting said hurricane at 25/30/35/40km ranges or so and see if they still get instapopped?

So....

Wolf with an optimal bonus.

Why?

Seriously, what was the intention behind reducing the damage projection of a ship with weak range control within scram?



It was :(

Please Dude just stop it ....

Btw. When Tallest is here. What about hybrids ? Working on it ? Yes we are still waiting for it .. Thanks and sorry for small off topic..