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Skill Discussions

 
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[eb] - eveboard.com

Author
Towaoc
Applied Technologies Inc
Agents of Fortune
#421 - 2015-12-18 15:47:39 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
"Sucky" is not a word that has ever crossed my mind.

It is what it is, and I game it, accept my place in it, appreciate it.

Cool
Fun
Helpful
Free
Entertainment

Those are the words that come to mind

Thank you C for all your work.

Agree!!

I hope my suggestions are received as constructive - possible ideas on how to enhance eveboard's excellence.


Juwi Kotch
KOTCH Construction and Anchoring
#422 - 2015-12-19 10:21:36 UTC
Jumping in, I'd like to reiterate an old idea of eveboard.

When it was created, Chribba mentioned an intention to offer something different than just a ranking which lists old pros ahead of new players. What I'm thinking is to put the present core against the age of the player and rank relativly according to the age of the player.

Effectively that would mean, that another arithmetic step would need to be added as the final step in the ranking calculation. This additional step divides the number of days since the date of birth by the score value as been calculated right now. Simple as that. A younger pilot with a certain score would be ranked higher than an older pilot with a similar score.

This would change the top of the list only a bit (but placings would actually be reshuffled), however I believe it would significantly change the ranking in the middle and the bottom of the list.

"Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime, and every kindness, we birth our future." Sonmi-451

Amateratsu
The Pegasus Project
#423 - 2015-12-19 17:58:10 UTC
Juwi Kotch wrote:
Jumping in, I'd like to reiterate an old idea of eveboard.

When it was created, Chribba mentioned an intention to offer something different than just a ranking which lists old pros ahead of new players. What I'm thinking is to put the present core against the age of the player and rank relativly according to the age of the player.

Effectively that would mean, that another arithmetic step would need to be added as the final step in the ranking calculation. This additional step divides the number of days since the date of birth by the score value as been calculated right now. Simple as that. A younger pilot with a certain score would be ranked higher than an older pilot with a similar score.

This would change the top of the list only a bit (but placings would actually be reshuffled), however I believe it would significantly change the ranking in the middle and the bottom of the list.


This is not a good idea.

Here's an example to explain why:--

My current global rank is 37.
#Days since i started EvE 3,851

3851 / 37 = 104. So with your idea i would be pushed down to 104th place and will never ever be able to climb higher.
In fact the older my character gets the further down the ranks i will be pushed.

Every player will decline in the ranks the older they get with noway to ever climb back up.

Altho there is room for improvement... The current system allows any player to climb the ranks regardless of their age, and thus gives everyone a fair chance at climbing the ranks.

Your system would penalise older players forcing them down the ranks with no possible return.

Juwi Kotch
KOTCH Construction and Anchoring
#424 - 2015-12-19 21:22:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Juwi Kotch
Amateratsu wrote:


My current global rank is 37.
#Days since i started EvE 3,851

3851 / 37 = 104. So with your idea i would be pushed down to 104th place and will never ever be able to climb higher.
In fact the older my character gets the further down the ranks i will be pushed.


That's not what I meant. It's not the number of days devided by your rank, but by the score which determines your rank. At present, our score is 2,542.41, so you would calculate 3851 / 2542.41 = 1.5147.

However, this arithmetic still seems not work as intended, and I'm to tired atm to clearly think about it (I'm getting old, I guess). I post about this again tomorrow...

"Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime, and every kindness, we birth our future." Sonmi-451

Amateratsu
The Pegasus Project
#425 - 2015-12-20 11:59:02 UTC
in the current system a lower score = a higher rank, so training to reduce that score is the way to climb the global ranks.
introducing the #days division would reverse that causing a reduced score to push you down the ranks.

So you would need to increase your score to climb the ranks, which would require you to stop training and let everyone else overtake you.

So any player actively training to reduce their score would get penalised and pushed down the ranks
Juwi Kotch
KOTCH Construction and Anchoring
#426 - 2015-12-20 14:40:56 UTC
I think I now have got it down. The two factors of my proposed calculation are the age in numbers of days and the scorre as calculated right now. Both are "better" when the number is smaller, so both figures need to be multiplied and not divided. The smaller the resulting product, the higher the rank.

Players who are relativly young compared to other players around them in the list would climb up some places, players who are relativly old most likely would loose some places. When applying this, number one and two of the overall rank list would switch places, since Claire is much younger then Viggen and the difference in the score is small.

This would remove part of the intrinsic advantage of being a long time player and give younger player, who want to play the EB-game, a chance of a better rank.

"Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime, and every kindness, we birth our future." Sonmi-451

Towaoc
Applied Technologies Inc
Agents of Fortune
#427 - 2015-12-20 16:04:29 UTC
Very interesting idea, but I think a bunch of 1 and 2 day old characters would end up on top.

To test this, I went to the "Average SP/Hour" ranks to find a new character:

"ili2cnt" for example, is a couple of days old, has a rank of 60,715 and an underlying score of 54,818.57. Multiplying by the 2 day age, we get a total of 109,637.

Viggen, on the other hand, at rank 1 has an underlying score of 862.66 but is something like 4,400 days old, for a total of 3,795,704 - a total that would move him way down the ranks.

Juwi Kotch
KOTCH Construction and Anchoring
#428 - 2015-12-20 16:35:57 UTC
Hmm... true...

One solution could be, that only pilots being at least a certain number of days old (for instance 100 days) would be ranked in the list. Another one could be, that only pilots who are below the theoretical max value of average sp/hr (what is 2,800 afaik) would be included in the list. I think that nobody except the top 10,000 are looking at their overall rank, anyways.

But maybe it is just an interesting, but not a good idea ...

"Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime, and every kindness, we birth our future." Sonmi-451

Amateratsu
The Pegasus Project
#429 - 2015-12-20 17:45:50 UTC

If you use ANY statistic (be it age or any other stat) in the calculation that only a certain percentage of players have, then you are going to penalise those players against all the other players who don't have that particular stat.

What you want is a global ranking system that treats all players equally so that all players can achieve a ranking position if they put in the appropriate training.

With Eve fast approaching 13 years Online, there is no way a new player can compete with a 10 year vet with regards to ranking.

Something that has previously been suggested is having several duplicate ranking pages each of which lists only players within a particular age group.

For example have 10 copies of each of the ranking pages, page 1 ranks all players up to 1 year old, page 2 all players 1 - 2 years old and so on to page 10 that ranks all players 10 years old and over.

This would be much fairer than adjusting a players score based on theirage or any other statistic.
Integra Arkanheld
Andorra Paradis Fiscal
#430 - 2016-01-18 17:33:43 UTC
It seems that this discussion can be closed as next months with skill points trading all this discussion will loose all meaning.Sad
Why bother about a ranking where you can go where you want with money.
It seems that I will need to look for another game.
Amateratsu
The Pegasus Project
#431 - 2016-01-18 18:07:26 UTC
Integra Arkanheld wrote:
It seems that this discussion can be closed as next months with skill points trading all this discussion will loose all meaning.Sad
Why bother about a ranking where you can go where you want with money.
It seems that I will need to look for another game.


It will all depend on the base cost of the extractor, and the value the markets settle on for the injectors.
Too cheap and the skill traning system will become obsolete, as everyone will simply buy themselfs to max sp.

Too expensive and only the super rich will use it, leaving everyone else behind.

Either way i think it will be another nail in Eve's coffin.Cry
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#432 - 2016-01-18 18:39:47 UTC
Integra Arkanheld wrote:
It seems that this discussion can be closed as next months with skill points trading all this discussion will loose all meaning.Sad
Why bother about a ranking where you can go where you want with money.
It seems that I will need to look for another game.


A few thoughts:

I don't play much any more, but I keep my subs going so I can keep training.
The training game, and eveboard are about all I have time or energy to do.
(Dumb, I know, but it's my game and my time)
If I can buy skill points... not much use in keeping 3 subs going all the time. I can shut down 2 and play a bit with this character.
If SP cost as much as a months sub, it's a break even proposition.
If they cost more, then economically, the sub time is a better deal, but
if they cost less, I'd easily shut down 2 accounts.

The same maths will apply to the character bazaar.

This will make remaps obsolete.
Basically makes attributes obsolete.
Map for ships n guns, buy the rest.


Bad news in my opinion.
It will make most of the long term players feel cheated.
My hope would be, that the SP cost a FORTUNE.

My own personal silver lining:
I have enough skills that I don't need to buy anything.
Amateratsu
The Pegasus Project
#433 - 2016-01-18 21:59:22 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:


A few thoughts:

I don't play much any more, but I keep my subs going so I can keep training.
The training game, and eveboard are about all I have time or energy to do.
(Dumb, I know, but it's my game and my time)



Your not alone in this. I think a lot of Eve Boards top players are in this boat, me included.

I keep my subs going purely to maintain my characters training. But depending on how much skill trading costs, this may become obsolete. It may become a case of if you can't beat them, join them, or quit altogether:/
Integra Arkanheld
Andorra Paradis Fiscal
#434 - 2016-01-19 08:56:40 UTC
With 1 year subscription, you will probably be able to buy many Skill points.
My character is from middle 2007, and I am over 200M points. Now it means that the character was well planned. For me it means that instead of gaining less points to have that skills I want, I had to wait to remaps (so sometimes years) to learn some skills. I was looking to be good in the long run.
Next month, people will be able to make a character from 0 to 50M very fast, and then still be able to go at a good speed with money.
Someone who makes a good living with more than 100000$ per year, and that is willing to pay for example 100$ per month, will be able to buy for example 2 plexes and many skill points every month, leaving behind most of the other players.

IT removes all the motivation to keep the account as I play a lot less than before. There is no satisfaction in amassing items or isk with the plexes. And now it is the same with skill pointsSad
Juwi Kotch
KOTCH Construction and Anchoring
#435 - 2016-01-19 19:58:12 UTC
I have an alt with approx 22 mil SP. I could transfer 17 mil to my main, who has over 180 mil SP. I calculated that and I would get the worth of nearly 80 days of skilltraining of my main. In case of selling the alt, I could get around 10 bil ISK. 90 days or 3 plexes of game time, what would be the cost of what I could gain, is around 3 bil ISK. Loosing 7 bil ISK, to safe 80 days of skilltraining on a char, which has already some 10 years of training? I would be dumb to do this.

The other way around? Who would actually castrate a 180mil SP char to support a 20+ mil pilot? I am not even willing to think about this.

Those rich people who buy a pilot and skill her (of course it will be a she) up with thousands of dollars to max out all skills? They will be the joke of the game and a favourite target of all low skilled PvPers to demonstrate that she still can be killed - easily by the way, because the player most likely has no idea what he's (of course he is male in RL) doing. Of course everybody will know who this pilot is, because why doing it, without anybody knowing?

A 100+ mil SP pilot who has actually played the game does not need to fear a 300+ mil newbie , who simply has bought the skills. As a result, I don't think, that this will change anything for the pilots which are playing the game for more then 5 or 6 years. On the other hand, it will change a lot for new pilots. Inexperienced pilots with money will be able to win against inexperienced pilots without money, because in this class it makes a difference if you have 4 mil SP or 40 mil SP. I'm sceptic that this is a smart move by CCP to allow this.

I'm quite relaxed about all this. It hardly will affect my gameplay. Depending on the costs of extractors and injectors I probably will shift some skill points on my 22 mil alt to streamline him before selling him. Cause I have decided to sell the chars on that account and close it afterwards long ago.

"Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime, and every kindness, we birth our future." Sonmi-451

Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#436 - 2016-01-19 20:51:44 UTC
I would get rid of and sell all the mining skills this character has and would gut my 22m sp alt to fill in what Morgan lacks, and then more than likely never touch sp selling again.
Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
#437 - 2016-01-20 09:15:01 UTC
Am I missing an update to eveboard?

Command destroyers & Logistics frigates are not showing up on my skillsheet.

I might just be bad at this game, I probably am.

R.I.P. Vile Rat

Shaleen
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#438 - 2016-01-20 15:35:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Shaleen
Chribba wrote:
I think I understand what you're all saying about the ranks now yeah. And I agree with you guys that the overall and such is pretty sucky, as well as me being a bit lost on a really good way to get an overall rank.

Perhaps I should try and make the ranks more of % of the max you can have in a group and use those values. As that also would be more dynamic I think than pure number of skills at a level.

The default "null" value is always problematic as it can have a big impact on things, and to the clever people gaming the eb ranks... I feel honored actually haha that you're playing the eb-game!

But in the end yes I need to look over the rankings.

/c


Hey Chribba,

First of all as always great work mate . I do agree that the rank system needs to be re-assessed . I mean it seems like its all about having more skills and then sp allocated in all those skills What?... I get it, some players like to have the option (even though they might never use it) to be able to do anything in the game . Nothing wrong with that.

Personally, I always wanted to have all my sp dedicated to PVP , reaching lv5 in all of them and not wasting any sp on anything else (I personally cannot even salvage). I have over 250mill sp,which gives me 38 position in total sp in whole eve , Im rank 34 by most sp by lv5, 52 rank by number of level 5 sp, 60 by average sp per skill... Yet my overall rank is 1054.

Honestly I do not care that much about my overall rank since the only stat I really care is the most sp per skill (pvp skills) the better. The way I see it, it is a very simplified overall rank system that is just based on who has the most skills and how many sp allocated in them.

In the end with the new skills system to be implemented in February all that discussion might be quite pointless.

It put the lotion on the skin or else it get a hose again

Amber Solaire
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#439 - 2016-02-11 19:02:00 UTC
None of the links seem to be working, so can`t find out how to update my character/acct
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#440 - 2016-02-15 03:49:18 UTC
Shaleen wrote:
Chribba wrote:
I think I understand what you're all saying about the ranks now yeah. And I agree with you guys that the overall and such is pretty sucky, as well as me being a bit lost on a really good way to get an overall rank.

Perhaps I should try and make the ranks more of % of the max you can have in a group and use those values. As that also would be more dynamic I think than pure number of skills at a level.

The default "null" value is always problematic as it can have a big impact on things, and to the clever people gaming the eb ranks... I feel honored actually haha that you're playing the eb-game!

But in the end yes I need to look over the rankings.

/c


Hey Chribba,

First of all as always great work mate . I do agree that the rank system needs to be re-assessed . I mean it seems like its all about having more skills and then sp allocated in all those skills What?... I get it, some players like to have the option (even though they might never use it) to be able to do anything in the game . Nothing wrong with that.

Personally, I always wanted to have all my sp dedicated to PVP , reaching lv5 in all of them and not wasting any sp on anything else (I personally cannot even salvage). I have over 250mill sp,which gives me 38 position in total sp in whole eve , Im rank 34 by most sp by lv5, 52 rank by number of level 5 sp, 60 by average sp per skill... Yet my overall rank is 1054.

Honestly I do not care that much about my overall rank since the only stat I really care is the most sp per skill (pvp skills) the better. The way I see it, it is a very simplified overall rank system that is just based on who has the most skills and how many sp allocated in them.

In the end with the new skills system to be implemented in February all that discussion might be quite pointless.




That's when T2 capital weapons are released right?