Intergalactic Summit

What is free will aside from having strong enough will to make choices. Well said Diana.

Ya, I think I can do that heh.

Respectfully, Directrix, it makes perfect sense form the point of view of allowing the "Chosen" to profit handsomely off other people's, uh, ... pleasures, and even use them as a method for tormenting and killing people "given over to destruction" in very profitable ways, so long as the "Chosen" don't partake of their own wares.

In other words, it's right in line with some of the stuff he's already done, if a little more profit-oriented.


Ms. Vess:

Are you really comfortable saying that a slave always has a choice? It's maybe technically true, but saying such a thing seems to reflect a lot of contempt for people I ... think you're trying to save.

Aren't you?

Do you actually think plantation workers should all exercise their options to scale the fences and be eaten by slaver dogs? Or that pleasure hub slaves are only there because they don't choose to fight back or kill themselves?

I don't know whether you've ever really been helpless. I have. (I think Ms. Kim might have, but she seems to have learned a bajillion wrong lessons from it.) It's horrible, being trapped. And it wasn't even anything especially ... awful, otherwise. I was just locked in my quarters while someone decided whether I could be allowed to exist. They decided to err on the side of letting me live, so, here I am.

What are they supposed to do, Ms. Vess? The Cartel knows very well how to control people. Their families will be under threat. Parents. Siblings. Many of them have probably been systematically addicted to something-- maybe even vitoc.

And if all of that fails, remember the first rule of torture:

Everyone breaks. Everyone.

They have a choice? Even in a culture that believes strongly in free will-- really?

To never succumb to pain.
To never give up.
To disregard fear.

Are these lessons wrong for you, Ms. Jenneth?

I won't talk about it, but you know, nobody is born strong. We become stronger when we are trained.


Why should I?
I will always strike back.

Especially, if they are traitors. I would grab them and push their treason into their throats with my fist, so they would choke on it.

I think I must have glossed over something or......... I dunno'.

Only thing I said was free will can't exist without being strong willed. Obviously there are exceptions (such as being held against your will by gun point). But being weak willed means your more susceptible to being coerced into doing things against your will.

As far as our people in slavery's will, how many rebelled in the great rebellion and won their freedom through their own sheer determination? They obviously had a strong will, but also opportunity knocked. If they didn't have a strong will, the opportunity would have been wasted. If opportunity knocked tomorrow and none of them had the will to try to free themselves, well, that's their choice. Doesn't mean I like it but at the same time I'm not forcing my own to do anything against their will. Personally I pity them a little bit for not living up to the expectations their ancestors set for them. We have always been a strong people, countless freedom fighters have died to give them the opportunities they deserve. Spitting in their face is wrong on so many levels.

Have I suffered in the past, or been helpless for any time span in my life? My brother and I certainly have. Respectfully, how I have is none of the rest of the IGS's business and I'm not about to post about it (feel free to ask me in private if you so wish). I also don't wish to turn my response into a pity party as I'm sure you feel the same. Knowing how things transform on the IGS out of nothing I'd think you would agree. Through my will and determination I overcame it and here I am today. Opportunity had a major impact on turning my luck. Much as the decision they made to open the door and let you live was an opportunity you capitalized on.

As far as what are they to do? Well I think the theme of what I'm saying is pretty obvious. Stay strong, and wait for their opportunity to arise. I know its much easier said than done. Exactly how can anyone have any effect on EVERY person in this plight? Simply put ya' can't. What you can do is give that opportunity to a few and hope others follow suit.

Lastly, I don't fight to free my people, that's a goal well beyond my abilities or even the whole Republic for that matter. I fight to allow my people the opportunity to fight for themselves. Its up to them whether they have the will to do it. Just as our ancestors had the Gallante and Jove, I aim to give them the same opportunity.

Respectfully, reading the rest of your remarks, I think the "gloss" was just that you agreed with something Kim-haani said. You didn't mean, for example, to say that pleasure hub workers should kill themselves rather than be subjected to degrading conditions; you meant to say that they should stay strong (probably a lot of them are, very) and wait for a chance to change their circumstances.

Ms. Kim didn't mean any such thing. She seems to have been closer to the specifics of this scenario than (I hope) either of us, but ... I'm pretty sure she's kicking herself more or less continuously for not finding the means to kill everybody involved, go down fighting, or at least end her life then and there.

And she doesn't have any more compassion for people in that position than for herself.

(That seems to just be a "human thing," by the way. People who've suffered apparently tend to have a lot of empathy for others' suffering-- unless that suffering mirrors their own. Then they get all "suck it up" and "show some backbone" or whatever.)

(Not that Kim-haani shows a lot of compassion for people suffering differently, but I'm attributing that to other causes.)

Well ... that's true, Directrix, but it doesn't really change my analysis. It looks like he's just leaving a door open by which he can profit from misery without having to carve himself a special exception.

When has Nauplius ever turned his back on any method by which he could make people (especially Minmatar) suffer?

No one has free will, and enslaved employees in Pleasure Hubs are still given over to destruction. This may seem cruel to you, but God has foreordained everything that comes to pass, and God's Providence insures that those whom he has elected unto salvation are not enslaved into Pleasure Hub service. Those who are enslaved into Pleasure Hub service on the other hand, God has ordained unto destruction from the beginning of the world.

Those who own and operate Pleasure Hubs have sinned and are in danger of the Judgement, but they are not (unless being Minmatar or by entering their own or some other Pleasure Hub) thereby given over to destruction. Being given over to destruction has a precise meaning in my system; it means that they may be treated as if they are already in Hell; they may be tortured and tormented and enslaved in the most cruel and sadistic ways (cruelty and sadism being legitimate parts of God's creation, and God has in his wisdom given us Chosen these legitimate outlets for these emotions); their blood gives various boons to the Chosen, as described in the original post in the case of the Minmatar and here in the case of those found in Pleasure Hubs. To summarize the latter:
The blood of the Exotic Dancers shall grant virility;
The blood of the Marines shall grant courage;
The blood of the Tourists shall grant fortune;
The blood of the Janitors shall cleanse your soul of sin and make you worthy of standing before a holy and righteous God.

Please note that being given over to destruction does not exactly correspond with being sent to the Lowest Hell in the next life. You, Lady Aspenstar and Lady Jenneth and all other SFRIM members will burn in the Lowest Hell for your treason against God and me; however, you are not yet given over to destruction. Should you or your crews become my captive, I would not enslave you or torture you or sacrifice you to God, as I reserve those punishments for those whom God has given over to destruction.

I hope this clarification has been helpful. Amen. Amarr Victor.

COME HERE AND TRY IT.
I DARE YOU.
I will even leave my door open.