These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Why just missiles? [Proposed ewar]
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
#61 - 2016-01-13 17:20:23 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
So then drones die too easily to smartbombs. I suggested earlier that drones have reduced HP and smartbomb/bomb resistance, but you seemed to be against that one.


I personally think drones are OK as they are (see the list Estella just gave, it's a good one).

I'm trying to come to a compromise.
Sitting Bull Lakota
Poppins and Company
#62 - 2016-01-13 22:47:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Sitting Bull Lakota
Estella Osoka wrote:
You could just outrun the drones. Roll Drones usually don't shoot until they get within optimal range, and then they drop to orbital velocity. So any fast ship that can stay ahead of them doesn't need to worry about them. A Garmur going 6k can easily outrun Warriors, hold a point on the target, and apply damage with light missiles. Most interceptors can do the same. In fact, any ship that can go faster than warriors is ideal for this. If you can faster than warriors, then you can outrun the other drones too.

So effective counters are:

- Shoot the drones.
- Jam the drone boat before he launches.
- Outrun them.
- Smartbombs

Hmm....wow...no counters to drones. [/sarcasm}

Brilliant.
Absolutely brilliant.
I concede that you have won this thread with your compelling and well defended proposal.
It's almost as if you didn't even need to read the other posts. Your one post here has totally changed my outlook on this game.
I cannot sing high enough praise for your knowledge of the issue at hand. And your proposal?
Again, brilliant. Clearly, sir, you have a deeper understanding of drones and drone counters than any of the rest of us. Just shoot the drones. Why didn't we think of that? And smartbombs? I wasn't even aware such a thing existed in this game. Outrun the drones; a stroke of pure genius. Jamming the drone ship before he even launches his payload? Why it's such a simple counter, I can't believe that more players don't fly with midslots full of ecm!

That, ladies and gentlemen, is how you [/sarcasm].

For anyone that is joining us here at the 4th page, there are a bunch of well developed explanations for why shooting drones isn't really a functional counter. That point, in particular has been a major point of controversy in the last 2 pages. The damage chart 2015 recently posted in another thread by CCP has exacerbated this issue by implying that drones really aren't that easy to counter. Outrunning drones sort of implies that the only ships viable for fighting against drone ships are kitey frigates. Smartbombs are worth exploring. In there current iteration, they are not effective (no one would bring a smartbomb to a real fight apart from smartbomb based fleet doctrine).
As for "just jam the drone boat before he launches drones," I am rolling on the floor; laughing my ass off.
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
#63 - 2016-01-13 23:03:20 UTC
Sitting Bull Lakota wrote:
For anyone that is joining us here at the 4th page, there are a bunch of well developed e̶x̶p̶l̶a̶n̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶ excuses for why shooting drones isn't really a functional counter.


Fixed that for you, chief.

Quote:
The damage chart 2015 recently posted in another thread by CCP has exacerbated this issue by implying that drones really aren't that easy to counter.


It implied people aren't using the counter, not that it isn't easy to use.

Quote:
Outrunning drones sort of implies that the only ships viable for fighting against drone ships are kitey frigates.


My god, its almost like EVE is a game of rock, paper, scissors, and you have to bring the appropriate ship to a fight? Heavens to betsy.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2016-01-14 01:51:26 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
So effective counters are:

- Shoot the drones.

We've been over this. Refer to the rest of the pages--many of the posts go over why this won't work. But simply seeing it not happen should be enough to clue you in. And no, the whole playerbase is not simply "playing the game wrong".


Estella Osoka wrote:
- Jam the drone boat before he launches.




Estella Osoka wrote:
- Outrun them.

Any ship that can outrun the drones doesn't stand a chance actually beating the drone boat. All it can do is run away successfully.


Estella Osoka wrote:
- Smartbombs

Works in large enough numbers, smartbomb fits cripple the ship in plenty of other ways. Considering that droneless drone ships can still shoot, a smartbomb fleet vs a drone fleet usually means the drone fleet will win unless the smartbomb fleet has a counter fleet on hand to mmop up the drone ships after their drones are gone.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
L33T G33K
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2016-01-14 08:45:32 UTC
We have anti-missile modules. It is time to replace caldari ewar modules with anti-drone modules. Scrap ECM and give caldari drone link disruptors. When active, drones got jammed / lost / whatever.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#66 - 2016-01-14 13:26:04 UTC
Isaac Armer wrote:
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
It's only a counter if it actually works. I'm not sure if you're trolling or just really, really dense.


You keep missing my point. Introducing a second counter isn't a good answer. Balancing drones so the existing counter works the way you want is.

And if you can't realize that a counter doesn't work until someone...decides to use it, then there's not much we can do.


It gets used but people seem to have realised it's more of a buff to the next guy who will engage the drone ship than actual help for yourself in your fight.
Kenji Noguchi
State War Academy
Caldari State
#67 - 2016-01-14 14:35:02 UTC
Sitting Bull Lakota wrote:
Edit 1: I first necroposted to this thread following CCP's announcement that the new weapon disruptor would affect missiles only. This is a mistake for the reasons I outline in the following, yet chronologically preceding post.
Edit 2: After reviewing the 2015 damage charts, I felt compelled to revive this proposal.

I know I've seen threads before about new ewar that disrupts drones and missiles, but I can't seem to use the forum search on my phone. At any rate, it's been awhile since I've seen one so here's another for the pile.

As we are all aware, missiles and drones cannot be countered with neuts or directly with weapon disruption. Drones can soldier on through jams and damps on top of that. So here, for your viewing pleasure, is a proposal to kill these two birds with more ewar.


Gonkulator* I - A set of ewar modules that affect missiles and drones (self controlled "smart" weapons).
When unscripted it interferes with the target ship's self propelled weapon systems guidance array thereby decreasing the max velocity of drones and missiles.

Drone Interference Script: Further decreases drone max velocity and reduces drone optimal/falloff and tracking. Reduces missile effects to negligible.

Missile Interference Script: Further decreases max velocity of missiles and increases explosion radius. Reduces drone effects to negligible.


Why one module to tackle two separate weapon systems?
Because tracking disruptors tackle three weapon systems.

Unlike the tracking disruptor, which is effective against any ship with guns which is most of them (total ships, not "in" ships) without needing to switch scripts, this module would need a script (and probably a reload cooldown) to be effective.
With the exception of the prophecy, geddon, and typhoon, missile ships are not also drone ships. There aren't really enough dedicated drone platforms or missile platforms to justify requiring a separate module for each.
I think a lot of our ishtars online or tengus online complaints could be satisfied by throwing shiny, new ewar wrenches at them.
Take that domis, ishtars, geddons, tengus, mordu's legion, and carriers! You done been Sat on by the Bull!


*Hogan's Heroes? Anyone?


I think it would make sense to just merge all weapon disruptors, and just use scripts for the specific weapon and aspect you wish to disrupt. I think they're underpowered in regards to the other EW systems, that disrupt your targeting (which most of the time nullify damage).
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#68 - 2016-01-14 19:52:21 UTC
Shooting the drones is an effective counter. Its worked for me in the past to great effect. Just because others can't be arsed on how to figure out how to do it right, does not mean it isn't an effective counter.

As to the "Any ship that can outrun the drones doesn't stand a chance actually beating the drone boat" remark, my Garmur says otherwise. Not to mention, while I am outrunning the drones, I can be killing them while still holding point. If I can't break the droneboats tank? That's what friends are for. This is an MMO. Play it like one.

People have used shooting drones, smartbombing, outrunning, and ECM as effective counters. Just because some people can't does not make them not effective counters. Oh, and the best counter? Out DPS the droneboat and kill it before its drones kill you.

Seriously, you guys make me think you have no idea on how to pvp against droneboats. Or how drones work.
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#69 - 2016-01-14 21:18:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Poranius Fisc
Sitting Bull Lakota wrote:

So effective counters are:


For anyone that is joining us here at the 4th page, there are a bunch of well developed explanations for why shooting drones isn't really a functional counter. That point, in particular has been a major point of controversy in the last 2 pages. The damage chart 2015 recently posted in another thread by CCP has exacerbated this issue by implying that drones really aren't that easy to counter. Outrunning drones sort of implies that the only ships viable for fighting against drone ships are kitey frigates. Smart bombs are worth exploring. In there current iteration, they are not effective (no one would bring a smartbomb to a real fight apart from smartbomb based fleet doctrine).
As for "just jam the drone boat before he launches drones," I am rolling on the floor; laughing my ass off.


So, your saying an ECM boat whose sole job to jam, probably wouldn't jam a ship before he launches drones if tackle is already applied to the ship?.. so at the point you've pretty much got him right? well, he launches drones and lets say a jam cycles before a weapon cycles on you tackler. which means drones go to the ECM ship. your an ECM ship. your not there to apply DPS, but if you are applying DPS, your closer to the target than if you were just jamming. which leads into smart bombs.

Gee.. some of those ECM ships have a utility slot. what shoudl I put in there? should I put a nuet? no.. that puts me too close and breaks the align out rule. your last to bail incase it goes south your your buddies can get out.

Maybe an auto targeter? well, that gives you more targets, but it really inst useful in small gang tactics. where your not out jamming at 240K. How about a large smart bomb? maybe your fighting a guy with medium drones. he'll either pull them or leave them on you trying to for you off field. No jams, and hes back in the fight. plus you have your drones, but your small amount probably isn't going to effect how many he has. You. smart bomb wins again. and its not even a pipe bombing doctrine, because not all pvp involves strict doctrine fits. or everyone wouldn't be able to have any mids because you'd be loading an ECCM, tracking computer, SEBO, dual props, and cap recharters.
Abby Silverwind
Demonic Retribution
The Initiative.
#70 - 2016-01-15 00:52:49 UTC
Sitting Bull Lakota wrote:
Edit 1: I first necroposted to this thread following CCP's announcement that the new weapon disruptor would affect missiles only. This is a mistake for the reasons I outline in the following, yet chronologically preceding post.
Edit 2: After reviewing the 2015 damage charts, I felt compelled to revive this proposal.

I know I've seen threads before about new ewar that disrupts drones and missiles, but I can't seem to use the forum search on my phone. At any rate, it's been awhile since I've seen one so here's another for the pile.

As we are all aware, missiles and drones cannot be countered with neuts or directly with weapon disruption. Drones can soldier on through jams and damps on top of that. So here, for your viewing pleasure, is a proposal to kill these two birds with more ewar.


Gonkulator* I - A set of ewar modules that affect missiles and drones (self controlled "smart" weapons).
When unscripted it interferes with the target ship's self propelled weapon systems guidance array thereby decreasing the max velocity of drones and missiles.

Drone Interference Script: Further decreases drone max velocity and reduces drone optimal/falloff and tracking. Reduces missile effects to negligible.

Missile Interference Script: Further decreases max velocity of missiles and increases explosion radius. Reduces drone effects to negligible.


Why one module to tackle two separate weapon systems?
Because tracking disruptors tackle three weapon systems.

Unlike the tracking disruptor, which is effective against any ship with guns which is most of them (total ships, not "in" ships) without needing to switch scripts, this module would need a script (and probably a reload cooldown) to be effective.
With the exception of the prophecy, geddon, and typhoon, missile ships are not also drone ships. There aren't really enough dedicated drone platforms or missile platforms to justify requiring a separate module for each.
I think a lot of our ishtars online or tengus online complaints could be satisfied by throwing shiny, new ewar wrenches at them.
Take that domis, ishtars, geddons, tengus, mordu's legion, and carriers! You done been Sat on by the Bull!


*Hogan's Heroes? Anyone?




Bump cause ur a noob

Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me;

Your rod and your staff, they comfort me.

Drunk Posting Best Posting
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#71 - 2016-01-18 21:18:27 UTC
L33T G33K wrote:
We have anti-missile modules. It is time to replace caldari ewar modules with anti-drone modules. Scrap ECM and give caldari drone link disruptors. When active, drones got jammed / lost / whatever.

Speak for yourself. I like my ECM.

Also, its also pretty feasable to to use an arazu to damp a ship so its guns wont work while killing their drones with your guns/ your drones.

When your in a force recon and you play it calm and cool, it tends to spook people.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#72 - 2016-01-18 21:50:37 UTC
Quote:
Edit 2: After reviewing the 2015 damage charts, I felt compelled to revive this proposal.



Really? Did you really feel that compelled? Sad

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2016-01-19 07:00:18 UTC
Poranius Fisc wrote:
Speak for yourself. I like my ECM.

ECM is all fine and dandy, but I'll be happy regardless of what kind of jammers my Scorpion has. As long as it is turning off other ships and getting primaried, I'm happy.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#74 - 2016-01-28 00:52:02 UTC
Isaac Armer wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
So then drones die too easily to smartbombs. I suggested earlier that drones have reduced HP and smartbomb/bomb resistance, but you seemed to be against that one.


I personally think drones are OK as they are (see the list Estella just gave, it's a good one).

I'm trying to come to a compromise.

Web, shoot, kill?