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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

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Indahmawar Fazmarai
#3461 - 2016-01-04 21:27:58 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
I've never claimed that my idea is anything else than that. It's a suggestion, one of different ones I could come up with, in order to fix what I perceive as an issue. PvErs quit when they reach the end of the developer made content and they can't create their own content without starting a completely different playstyle, and one which very likely they've dismissed. "How" provide them with PvE-driven content creation tools is better determined by CCP, since all in all they're the game developers and have a lot more information... but maybe not all. Unknown unknowns are a potential hazard, and what 62% of their customers think and do and want it's mostly a mistery to CCP.



In the first round, let us just say that this is a problem for you, not all PVE'ers. You have still not convinced me that 62% of EVE players want better PVE or are leaving due to lack of PVE. There are no reason to include everyone who does PVE activities (could be pvp alts) in what you want from CCP. You simply don't know if they agree with you, so stop the BS. If they all hate the PVE as it is now, why is a requirement for introducing new PVE content, that the old PVE missions stays (according to you in an older post in this thread)?


People don't leave PvE because there is an end of the road. They leave because the road ends. It takes roughly two years to reach there, and then they look for something else and there isn't. CCP can't just expand the road forever with more content; that's not how PvP has been kept alive for 12 years. What keeps content alive it's players generating it. Yet PvE does not generate content, it is not meant to generate content. And that is wrong because CCP loses more players due to PvE than to PvP.

The average tenure for PvE players it's 2 years, whereas general average it's 6 years. Since PvErs outnumber PvPrs by 2:1 and their tenures are 3 times shorter, it's a rough guess that CCP loses 6 times more players because of the limited nature of PvE than they lose because of what drives PvPrs away.

CCP is well aware of what keeps people playing, and they try (futilely) to increase the number of people going into thsoe things rather than sort what is costing them so many players for absolutely no reason.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#3462 - 2016-01-04 21:55:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
sero Hita wrote:
Dyner wrote:


I picked T1 and Battleships because, most T2/T3/Faction has a T1 'gimped' version. And Battleship, because I would venture most of the playerbase is not flying Caps (not a huge majority, but more than 50%). And that's how you run a proper Cash Shop game, you don't put the things that are commonly used behind the pay wall. You put the 'good stuff'. Oh, and you make it relatively cheap, around the $2-5 mark seems to work best.

As for the point of all of this. Another poster in this thread said the people complaining were either wanting f2p or p2w (paraphrasing). I pointed out that the game is already pay 2 win. People just want to ignore it because ships aren't for sale; just PLEX and vanity items.

But, apparently, CCP could be making a whole lot more money by moving part of the game behind a pay wall that still allows players to buy those items...provided someone coughs up real money at some point for them.

...like moving Fuel Blocks, PoS License (don't know if you still needs those for hi-sec PoS?), some of the PI stuff like the ability to own a Custom's Office, adding a License to own (read Mine) Moons, the Capital Ships skill book(s). But make them cost AURUM, yet still be 'unbound' so you can sell them on the Market.


But it is not pay2win (Due to what i wrote earlier). So we don't have to continue to argue this. Just to make this clear just because it is not pay2win does not mean it would a good idea to implement, or that i support it at all or want it. I am just strictly discussing the definition of pay2win, because you have a very unlogical definition. that was all. I feel we are not getting anywhere with this discussion, so I will stop now.



Actually EvE got P2W everywhere, since before the P2W term even existed.

P2W is about getting a non in game purchased advantage delivering in game advantages.

1) Being able to purchase and play multiple accounts is P2W already. A guy with Orca + 3 mining accounts SHALL make more ISK than a guy with just one mining ship. Basically being able to play multiple accounts shortens the "time to wealth" / "time to power", which in a sandbox is a very important aspect.
Another example: a guy using 1 scout account on one side of a gate SHALL suffer many less losses in his gate camping activity and SHALL be better prepared to deal with the targets soon jumping in his system.
Another example: a lone guy is going to under-use even a small POS. A guy with 4-6 accounts could fill a large POS and use T2 copy, research and manufacturing.

Now, multi-accounting in EvE is as old as it gets and even "oldbies" accepted - and often welcomed - this form of P2W. Other games don't let people do like this.

2) PLEX (and Aurum, a "derivative"). PLEX is the surrogate CCP smartly invented to defeat "China ISK farmers" of old and their ever present bots. Why did people demand for farmed ISK? Because more $$$ purchased ISK, again, shorten both "time to wealth" and "time to power". PLEX "just" replaces ISK botters but it's still a shortcut to wealth and power.

P2W in a sandbox game is not just "$$$ let me kill that guy", EvE is not a DOTA. P2W is pervasive because in an economy driven sandbox victory is a long haul and is paved by earned resources. Now, PLEX lets people sharply shorten the "time to wealth" and this alone makes them closer to a position of power / dominance / whatever objective they have got.

Sadly there's no true way to prevent either 1) or 2), because players can just play behind VPNs and whatever to fool multiple accounts from the same players and because if they removed PLEXes, people would just bot their way to victory again.

But the new stuff like SP and similar is pure nickel and dime.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Arya Ikahrus
#3463 - 2016-01-04 22:01:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Arya Ikahrus
We... just ignore all that stuff.

You see you can still buy that stuff with isk, and idiots lose fancy ships sometimes, and Eve has no win condition. So it's fine.

Fine fine fine.

(No, but seriously, Eve is pretty much as good as it's going to get these days.)
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#3464 - 2016-01-04 22:07:38 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

1) Being able to purchase and play multiple accounts is P2W already. A guy with Orca + 3 mining accounts SHALL make more ISK than a guy with just one mining ship. Basically being able to play multiple accounts shortens the "time to wealth" / "time to power", which in a sandbox is a very important aspect.
Another example: a guy using 1 scout account on one side of a gate SHALL suffer many less losses in his gate camping activity and SHALL be better prepared to deal with the targets soon jumping in his system.
Another example: a lone guy is going to under-use even a small POS. A guy with 4-6 accounts could fill a large POS and use T2 copy, research and manufacturing.

Now, multi-accounting in EvE is as old as it gets and even "oldbies" accepted - and often welcomed - this form of P2W. Other games don't let people do like this.

2) PLEX (and Aurum, a "derivative"). PLEX is the surrogate CCP smartly invented to defeat "China ISK farmers" of old and their ever present bots. Why did people demand for farmed ISK? Because more $$$ purchased ISK, again, shorten both "time to wealth" and "time to power". PLEX "just" replaces ISK botters but it's still a shortcut to wealth and power.

P2W in a sandbox game is not just "$$$ let me kill that guy", EvE is not a DOTA. P2W is pervasive because in an economy driven sandbox victory is a long haul and is paved by earned resources. Now, PLEX lets people sharply shorten the "time to wealth" and this alone makes them closer to a position of power / dominance / whatever objective they have got.

Sadly there's no true way to prevent either 1) or 2), because players can just play behind VPNs and whatever to fool multiple accounts from the same players and because if they removed PLEXes, people would just bot their way to victory again.

But the new stuff like SP and similar is pure nickel and dime.


Correct, but:

1) What good is it to buy your way in, when people just see you as loot pinatas ?

2) How quickly will you get bored when you can get anything with no ingame effort ?

Money can just help with the economic side of EvE, your relationships and skills remain unaffected at best.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Dyner
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3465 - 2016-01-04 22:39:28 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
1.500,-- for a Titan sounds like a lot ...
... on the other hand do people exist who pay for that.

Of course, that price really only works if there aren't that many titan pilots around in the first place.


I'm just saying that pricing something too cheap ruins its value completely.

Owning a capship, or even a titan, should fill the owner with pride ...
... which means the price has to reflect that pride.

I remember insane people claiming they've thrown several thousand bucks at ArcheAge ...
... and sadly I have no reason not to believe it.


Indeed, according to the EVE-Smith site, a Leviathan costs ~59,585,917,380 ISK to make..or has a value of that much if you mine/craft everything yourself.

So you'd need about 85 PLEX selling at no less than 700 million ISK to either straight up buy the ship (not accounting for markups) or the material to craft it.
Arya Ikahrus
#3466 - 2016-01-04 22:57:52 UTC
£1062.46 for me at those rates with the current PLEX bundles.

PLEX is selling for nearly a billion isk these days though right? That's nearer 60 PLEX, or £752.96.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#3467 - 2016-01-04 23:34:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

1) Being able to purchase and play multiple accounts is P2W already. A guy with Orca + 3 mining accounts SHALL make more ISK than a guy with just one mining ship. Basically being able to play multiple accounts shortens the "time to wealth" / "time to power", which in a sandbox is a very important aspect.
Another example: a guy using 1 scout account on one side of a gate SHALL suffer many less losses in his gate camping activity and SHALL be better prepared to deal with the targets soon jumping in his system.
Another example: a lone guy is going to under-use even a small POS. A guy with 4-6 accounts could fill a large POS and use T2 copy, research and manufacturing.

Now, multi-accounting in EvE is as old as it gets and even "oldbies" accepted - and often welcomed - this form of P2W. Other games don't let people do like this.

2) PLEX (and Aurum, a "derivative"). PLEX is the surrogate CCP smartly invented to defeat "China ISK farmers" of old and their ever present bots. Why did people demand for farmed ISK? Because more $$$ purchased ISK, again, shorten both "time to wealth" and "time to power". PLEX "just" replaces ISK botters but it's still a shortcut to wealth and power.

P2W in a sandbox game is not just "$$$ let me kill that guy", EvE is not a DOTA. P2W is pervasive because in an economy driven sandbox victory is a long haul and is paved by earned resources. Now, PLEX lets people sharply shorten the "time to wealth" and this alone makes them closer to a position of power / dominance / whatever objective they have got.

Sadly there's no true way to prevent either 1) or 2), because players can just play behind VPNs and whatever to fool multiple accounts from the same players and because if they removed PLEXes, people would just bot their way to victory again.

But the new stuff like SP and similar is pure nickel and dime.


Correct, but:

1) What good is it to buy your way in, when people just see you as loot pinatas ?

2) How quickly will you get bored when you can get anything with no ingame effort ?

Money can just help with the economic side of EvE, your relationships and skills remain unaffected at best.


You have always to consider every factor, else your analysis will suffer.

Nobody cares that a soloer can purcase a blinged out L4 loot pinata. He's utterly irrelevant, even if he did P2W in his own limited EvE role.

A different thing may be said for a thousands strong alliance. Usually the guys in charge are influent in real life not just in game. Often they don't lack of funds and even if they did, they have thousands "grunts" ready to lend an hand. Been there, seen that happen.

Result: that alliance gets those 4-5 "undue" Titans and tilt the war outcome with another alliance who were maybe defeating them by a little margin and now will lose.

THIS is powerplay and THIS is P2W that matters.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3468 - 2016-01-05 00:18:52 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Actually EvE got P2W everywhere, since before the P2W term even existed.

P2W is about getting a non in game purchased advantage delivering in game advantages.

1) Being able to purchase and play multiple accounts is P2W already. A guy with Orca + 3 mining accounts SHALL make more ISK than a guy with just one mining ship. Basically being able to play multiple accounts shortens the "time to wealth" / "time to power", which in a sandbox is a very important aspect.
Another example: a guy using 1 scout account on one side of a gate SHALL suffer many less losses in his gate camping activity and SHALL be better prepared to deal with the targets soon jumping in his system.
Another example: a lone guy is going to under-use even a small POS. A guy with 4-6 accounts could fill a large POS and use T2 copy, research and manufacturing.

Now, multi-accounting in EvE is as old as it gets and even "oldbies" accepted - and often welcomed - this form of P2W. Other games don't let people do like this.

2) PLEX (and Aurum, a "derivative"). PLEX is the surrogate CCP smartly invented to defeat "China ISK farmers" of old and their ever present bots. Why did people demand for farmed ISK? Because more $$$ purchased ISK, again, shorten both "time to wealth" and "time to power". PLEX "just" replaces ISK botters but it's still a shortcut to wealth and power.

P2W in a sandbox game is not just "$$$ let me kill that guy", EvE is not a DOTA. P2W is pervasive because in an economy driven sandbox victory is a long haul and is paved by earned resources. Now, PLEX lets people sharply shorten the "time to wealth" and this alone makes them closer to a position of power / dominance / whatever objective they have got.

Sadly there's no true way to prevent either 1) or 2), because players can just play behind VPNs and whatever to fool multiple accounts from the same players and because if they removed PLEXes, people would just bot their way to victory again.

But the new stuff like SP and similar is pure nickel and dime.


I don´t agree. I am gonna stand on my definition that P2W literally means pay2WIN. You pay you win. Actually you cannot use this in a sandbox IMHO, and you are just twisting the term till it fits what you want to proclaim. In all your examples the guy who doesn't pay with PLEX can still get all the things you mentioned, like an orca with more accounts etc. Let us be honest here it not like it is hard to generate ISK enough in this game, to plex more accounts. You overestimate the effect of getting something faster IMO. As you never compete against someone 1:1 where you are aware of it. Hence you are not winning.

Sure if you do your manipulative comparrisons, were two persons are competing 1:1 in getting a BS the one with PLEX would win by being there first and 1000 euro, but that has no relevance on tranquility. This is an arbitrary goal you have put up. And would never make a difference for the two players.

The guy who paid for the orca and 4 mining alts with PLEX did not win over the guy who did not, and earned it himself. What is happening here is that you project your own competative personality unto the game, where you see it as winning getting the orca first. But in reality it does not matter. They don't even know each other, so they can't compare

And then the nice story about the alliance who use 4000 euros to buy four titans. I am sure this happens everyday Shocked those big alliances could also just build the titans. Plus if your opponent bring four extra titans, you are free to find someone who would love to get those on their KB and cyno in for the kills.

TLDR. you are overexaggerating the importance of getting things faster IMO, and I still don't agree with the bastard interpretation of the P2W definition.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
Arya Ikahrus
#3469 - 2016-01-05 00:37:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Arya Ikahrus
Pay 2 get in-game advantages is nowhere near as catchy though.

P2GIGA, c'mon, that will... uh, probably never catch on.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#3470 - 2016-01-05 01:34:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
sero Hita wrote:

TLDR. you are overexaggerating the importance of getting things faster IMO, and I still don't agree with the bastard interpretation of the P2W definition.


There's just some smaller detail, like the fact humanity compete between themselves about who gets the upper hand first, who gets more powerful quicker etc. etc.

Clearly nothing to do with EvE Blink


Edit: by the way, why did CCP forbid macros and key repeaters? Exactly to avoid the guy with the 72 accounts to strip every ice belt (EvE IS about competing, in example for limited resources) clean before the other players would even log in.

How did they do that? By abusing of the PLEX innate P2W nature, which allows to create a runaway, "positive feedback" situation where the guy (any guy with a brain tbh) can create an income "ladder" that lets him pay a geometrically increasing number of accounts.

See all I have done until now is to expose hard facts, with examples anybody can check with their hands.

I have also explored a lot of EvE "venues", so when I talk about ice mining, powerplay and other things, it's because I have witnessed them all.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#3471 - 2016-01-05 01:52:00 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
sero Hita wrote:

TLDR. you are overexaggerating the importance of getting things faster IMO, and I still don't agree with the bastard interpretation of the P2W definition.


There's just some smaller detail, like the fact humanity compete between themselves about who gets the upper hand first, who gets more powerful quicker etc. etc.

Clearly nothing to do with EvE Blink


Edit: by the way, why did CCP forbid macros and key repeaters? Exactly to avoid the guy with the 72 accounts to strip every ice belt (EvE IS about competing, in example for limited resources) clean before the other players would even log in.

How did they do that? By abusing of the PLEX innate P2W nature, which allows to create a runaway, "positive feedback" situation where the guy (any guy with a brain tbh) can create an income "ladder" that lets him pay a geometrically increasing number of accounts.

See all I have done until now is to expose hard facts, with examples anybody can check with their hands.

I have also explored a lot of EvE "venues", so when I talk about ice mining, powerplay and other things, it's because I have witnessed them all.


So what you're saying is "EVE already has P2W so fck it, lets get some more who cares", oh yes that makes a lot of sense (even if what you stated was even true, and it isn't).
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#3472 - 2016-01-05 02:09:34 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
sero Hita wrote:

TLDR. you are overexaggerating the importance of getting things faster IMO, and I still don't agree with the bastard interpretation of the P2W definition.


There's just some smaller detail, like the fact humanity compete between themselves about who gets the upper hand first, who gets more powerful quicker etc. etc.

Clearly nothing to do with EvE Blink


Edit: by the way, why did CCP forbid macros and key repeaters? Exactly to avoid the guy with the 72 accounts to strip every ice belt (EvE IS about competing, in example for limited resources) clean before the other players would even log in.

How did they do that? By abusing of the PLEX innate P2W nature, which allows to create a runaway, "positive feedback" situation where the guy (any guy with a brain tbh) can create an income "ladder" that lets him pay a geometrically increasing number of accounts.

See all I have done until now is to expose hard facts, with examples anybody can check with their hands.

I have also explored a lot of EvE "venues", so when I talk about ice mining, powerplay and other things, it's because I have witnessed them all.


So what you're saying is "EVE already has P2W so fck it, lets get some more who cares", oh yes that makes a lot of sense (even if what you stated was even true, and it isn't).


Hmm I don't know what have you got, you keep reading my posts either in a peculiar way or directly the opposite way they are written.

I am totally against any P2W, I hope this sentence is clear enough.

If it was for me, one could only play with *one* account and one account could only own up to 3 PLEXes.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#3473 - 2016-01-05 02:15:41 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
sero Hita wrote:

TLDR. you are overexaggerating the importance of getting things faster IMO, and I still don't agree with the bastard interpretation of the P2W definition.


There's just some smaller detail, like the fact humanity compete between themselves about who gets the upper hand first, who gets more powerful quicker etc. etc.

Clearly nothing to do with EvE Blink


Edit: by the way, why did CCP forbid macros and key repeaters? Exactly to avoid the guy with the 72 accounts to strip every ice belt (EvE IS about competing, in example for limited resources) clean before the other players would even log in.

How did they do that? By abusing of the PLEX innate P2W nature, which allows to create a runaway, "positive feedback" situation where the guy (any guy with a brain tbh) can create an income "ladder" that lets him pay a geometrically increasing number of accounts.

See all I have done until now is to expose hard facts, with examples anybody can check with their hands.

I have also explored a lot of EvE "venues", so when I talk about ice mining, powerplay and other things, it's because I have witnessed them all.


So what you're saying is "EVE already has P2W so fck it, lets get some more who cares", oh yes that makes a lot of sense (even if what you stated was even true, and it isn't).


Hmm I don't know what have you got, you keep reading my posts either in a peculiar way or directly the opposite way they are written.

I am totally against any P2W, I hope this sentence is clear enough.

If it was for me, one could only play with *one* account and one account could only own up to 3 PLEXes.


"But the new stuff like SP and similar is pure nickel and dime"

So what's that then?
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#3474 - 2016-01-05 02:22:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Xelitras
Gregor Parud wrote:

"But the new stuff like SP and similar is pure nickel and dime"

So what's that then?


I understood it as a comment on how the proposed SP trading is a step further towards the worst kind of micro-transactions.

edit: to nickel and dime

Neither VV nor I have english as a first language.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#3475 - 2016-01-05 02:25:27 UTC
For years CCP relied on player created content. As a matter of fact it was a selling point. "Hey look at our sandbox!".

But eventually they saturated the market for kewl players that were willing to do CCPs work. New players started to show up based upon "large space battles and a society created by the players" and quickly realized that they were not part of that society and none of that content was created for them.

And when they asked for content they were called noobs and told to get good.

CCP realized they had to retain new players if the game was to grow. They had made bad bad financial decisions and needed paying customers, not bloodthirsty vets who did not have to pay $$ to fund their accounts because of EvEs economy.

But here is the thing, they had forgotten or never knew how to create content. That was the players job.

But CCP tried anyway. This however threatened the standing and income of players who wanted to dictate the game without ever having to pay for it. And because CCP was not good at creating content what they did could not please the new or old players. Old players left saying "Not my sandbox". New players left saying "Not my game!". What was CCP to do?

This is the crossroads we find ourselves at. In the end I think we need a blend. We need players to SUGGEST content that benefits both communities and CCP to implement suggestions and stop trying to create content. Creating content is not CCPs core competency (just look at the failed ventures, trust me).

So endeth the lesson.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#3476 - 2016-01-05 02:31:42 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:

"But the new stuff like SP and similar is pure nickel and dime"

So what's that then?


I understood it as a comment on how the proposed SP trading is a step further towards the worst kind of micro-transactions.

edit: to nickel and dime

Neither VV nor I have english as a first language.


Easy to figure out. Is VV for or against SP trading. If against I was wrong, if for I was right.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3477 - 2016-01-05 02:37:50 UTC
Arya Ikahrus wrote:
Pay 2 get in-game advantages is nowhere near as catchy though.

P2GIGA, c'mon, that will... uh, probably never catch on.

Dunno, Pay-2-"Giga" actually has a nice ring to it IMHO.
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#3478 - 2016-01-05 02:38:06 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:

"But the new stuff like SP and similar is pure nickel and dime"

So what's that then?


I understood it as a comment on how the proposed SP trading is a step further towards the worst kind of micro-transactions.

edit: to nickel and dime

Neither VV nor I have english as a first language.


Easy to figure out. Is VV for or against SP trading. If against I was wrong, if for I was right.


1) bad is the opposite of good.

2) bad, worse, worst

3) defining something as bad implies one is against it

Can you figure it out now ?

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#3479 - 2016-01-05 02:40:11 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:

"But the new stuff like SP and similar is pure nickel and dime"

So what's that then?


I understood it as a comment on how the proposed SP trading is a step further towards the worst kind of micro-transactions.

edit: to nickel and dime

Neither VV nor I have english as a first language.


Easy to figure out. Is VV for or against SP trading. If against I was wrong, if for I was right.


1) bad is the opposite of good.

2) bad, worse, worst

3) defining something as bad implies one is against it

Can you figure it out now ?


Lets just wait what VV says :)

"nickel and dime" could easily be used as "peanuts".
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#3480 - 2016-01-05 08:10:27 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:

"But the new stuff like SP and similar is pure nickel and dime"

So what's that then?


I understood it as a comment on how the proposed SP trading is a step further towards the worst kind of micro-transactions.

edit: to nickel and dime

Neither VV nor I have english as a first language.


Yes, English is my fourth language. I had to self-learn it, because back at the time they did not teach it at my school.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials