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Station Trading- i don't get it
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Xotcl Gaterau
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-12-30 00:32:33 UTC
Can someone explain this to me?

In order for this to work, doesn't it mean you have to find an item that sells for less than the buy orders at that same station?

And isn't that impossible since a buy order that is more than a sell order is automatically filled?


I know this is basic, but i'm having trouble understanding.

I've looked at a bunch of station trading guides but none explain this basic point.

Thanks in advance for any help.
Rykker Bow
Center for Advanced Studies
#2 - 2015-12-30 01:38:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Rykker Bow
Station traders are the middle men so to speak. They take items people want to sell fast and put them up for sale to people who want to buy fast. They save the player time in exchange for a little bit of isk which the station trader pockets.

For example, Player A wants to sell a freighter. He can either put it up on a sell order and pay the broker fees and station taxes and then wait hours, days or weeks for the item to sell all the while keeping an eye and updating the order so it's next in line to sell OR he can just sell to the station trader who has the isk ready right now thus saving Player A valuable time.

Player A will be able to make a little more isk if he goes the first route but the trade off is time. More often than not he'd much rather be doing something else in the game than watch over his order so he loses a little bit of isk in exchange.

The profits stack up for station traders as they'll have dozens or even hundreds of orders up at a time continually buying and relisting.

edit: The buy price will always be lower than the sell price. When that difference gets too narrow (ie. less profit for station traders) station traders move on to other items and that difference gets larger with less competition.

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Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#3 - 2015-12-30 02:18:19 UTC
Place a buy order for item A at 1m isk in Jita

Someone sells it to you.

You place a sell order for item A at 1.1m isk in Jita.

You make the difference between buy/sell minus fees.

Most players do not use buy or sell orders, they use "Right click buy" to get items, and "Right click sell" to sell them.

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Edwin Rothbard
Interstellar Arbitrage
#4 - 2015-12-30 05:20:04 UTC
Xotcl Gaterau wrote:
Can someone explain this to me?

Arbitrage

Rothbard's Casino
Xotcl Gaterau
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2015-12-30 14:14:12 UTC
Rhivre wrote:
Place a buy order for item A at 1m isk in Jita

Someone sells it to you.

You place a sell order for item A at 1.1m isk in Jita.

You make the difference between buy/sell minus fees.

Most players do not use buy or sell orders, they use "Right click buy" to get items, and "Right click sell" to sell them.



Ok. Is it correct though that you obtain the items to sell by placing buy orders, not by buying from sell orders placed by others?

You then take the items you obtained from your buy orders and convert them into ISK by placing your own sell orders?

Thanks.
Magnu Stormhawk
#6 - 2015-12-30 15:29:59 UTC
Xotcl Gaterau wrote:
Rhivre wrote:
Place a buy order for item A at 1m isk in Jita

Someone sells it to you.

You place a sell order for item A at 1.1m isk in Jita.

You make the difference between buy/sell minus fees.

Most players do not use buy or sell orders, they use "Right click buy" to get items, and "Right click sell" to sell them.



Ok. Is it correct though that you obtain the items to sell by placing buy orders, not by buying from sell orders placed by others?

You then take the items you obtained from your buy orders and convert them into ISK by placing your own sell orders?

Thanks.


Exactamundo.
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#7 - 2015-12-30 16:40:30 UTC
Xotcl Gaterau wrote:
Rhivre wrote:
Place a buy order for item A at 1m isk in Jita

Someone sells it to you.

You place a sell order for item A at 1.1m isk in Jita.

You make the difference between buy/sell minus fees.

Most players do not use buy or sell orders, they use "Right click buy" to get items, and "Right click sell" to sell them.



Ok. Is it correct though that you obtain the items to sell by placing buy orders, not by buying from sell orders placed by others?

You then take the items you obtained from your buy orders and convert them into ISK by placing your own sell orders?

Thanks.



Yes. You buy from sell orders only when someone has placed a sell order low enough that you can flip it around for profit.

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2015-12-30 17:07:17 UTC
Rykker Bow wrote:
Station traders are the middle men so to speak. They take items people want to sell fast and put them up for sale to people who want to buy fast. They save the player time in exchange for a little bit of isk which the station trader pockets.

For example, Player A wants to sell a freighter. He can either put it up on a sell order and pay the broker fees and station taxes and then wait hours, days or weeks for the item to sell all the while keeping an eye and updating the order so it's next in line to sell OR he can just sell to the station trader who has the isk ready right now thus saving Player A valuable time.

Player A will be able to make a little more isk if he goes the first route but the trade off is time. More often than not he'd much rather be doing something else in the game than watch over his order so he loses a little bit of isk in exchange.

The profits stack up for station traders as they'll have dozens or even hundreds of orders up at a time continually buying and relisting.

edit: The buy price will always be lower than the sell price. When that difference gets too narrow (ie. less profit for station traders) station traders move on to other items and that difference gets larger with less competition.


Station traders serve a number of roles. They are speculators in many cases--i.e. they take information that has not been incorporated into the market prices and buy or sell thus incorporating that information into the market price.

Some also do arbitrage trades. They notice price differentials, say between regions or even within a region and buy/sell to help bring prices closer together.

By doing this, market traders inject liquidity into the market. A liquid market is one that is stable with a low likelihood of sudden price swings.

All of these are, generally speaking, good things. When you go to a trade hub and see lots of goods available on the market...it is because of traders.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2015-12-30 17:11:31 UTC
Xotcl Gaterau wrote:
Rhivre wrote:
Place a buy order for item A at 1m isk in Jita

Someone sells it to you.

You place a sell order for item A at 1.1m isk in Jita.

You make the difference between buy/sell minus fees.

Most players do not use buy or sell orders, they use "Right click buy" to get items, and "Right click sell" to sell them.



Ok. Is it correct though that you obtain the items to sell by placing buy orders, not by buying from sell orders placed by others?

You then take the items you obtained from your buy orders and convert them into ISK by placing your own sell orders?

Thanks.


You can buy from buy orders....or you could also get on the bulk trade mailing list. Some trades take place via contracts.

Suppose I have come into a large amount of X. I don't want to put them up on a sell order and tweak the price every day or even every few hours. So I look at the buy/sell prices, pick say the mid point price and send out an e-mail for 500 X at price P. If somebody says they want it, I throw up the contract at the agreed upon terms, and there you go, a trade is complete but not on the market where everybody can see. I get more than the buy orders and get my ISK quickly. The buyer gets a bunch of stuff to sell immediately (vs. taking days or weeks via buy orders) and still has a margin at which to make a profit.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Buzz Orti
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2015-12-31 03:31:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzz Orti
Xotcl Gaterau wrote:
...
1. In order for this to work, doesn't it mean you have to find an item that sells for less than the buy orders at that same station?

2. And isn't that impossible since a buy order that is more than a sell order is automatically filled?
...

1. Not necessarily.
You can get items from missions, contracts, loot, spoils, anything that has item in them.
Also note that, although contracts are not traded in the EVE Online Market interface, that they are in station.
(...meaning..., well, yes, meaning that they can be traded in station trading as well...)

ok now, since you can get items for 0.00 ISK and sell them for potentially more than 0.01 ISK, which would lead you a profit greater than 100%....
(Unless of course that you prefer to double your ISK by selling 2 items for 0.01, but that's ok, you'd still make a profit , although half less.)

2. I believe that , while true in real life markets, this is not the case in EVE Online markets.
You can see items that are listed for less in sales, while more is offered in buy.
All you have to do is buy and sell and cash in the profit.

What happens is that, automated orders transaction occurs when the player choses the sell or buy instantly feature.
Anything sold or, "buy" price on a timer (typically, 3 months or not instant) is not automatically traded to the highest or best bidder because,
that player prefers to offer it on a timer (whether the offer is a sell offer or a buy offer that is).

Furthermore, if your order on a timer is better than others, it will go to the top, given that the indexed field for price is ordered in that ranking order that is.
In other words, if you chose another field for sorting order, your best offer may not show up on top, while a seller/buyer would see it on top.


3.
Although not listed, the EVE University Market classes explains that the most important is to be able to buy the items at competitive prices.
Those buy price may change more often, which can be the first order of the day to modify from the station trading window.

Once those windows ordered (buy first) are completed, you can then go to other businesses, be it sales, etc...

I can also link you the EVE Uni audio file with time of mention and author.

Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#11 - 2015-12-31 15:43:55 UTC
Buzz Orti wrote:


2. I believe that , while true in real life markets, this is not the case in EVE Online markets.
You can see items that are listed for less in sales, while more is offered in buy.
All you have to do is buy and sell and cash in the profit.
.



If there is a sell order which drops to the price of the buys on a station it will autofill.

Same for any buy order which is at or above the sells, and in range. It is a quick way to clear the market, set up a 5 jump or whatever buy order, set at the price of all the smaller orders.

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Buzz Orti
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2015-12-31 15:59:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzz Orti
Rhivre wrote:
Buzz Orti wrote:


2. I believe that , while true in real life markets, this is not the case in EVE Online markets.
You can see items that are listed for less in sales, while more is offered in buy.
All you have to do is buy and sell and cash in the profit.
.



If there is a sell order which drops to the price of the buys on a station it will autofill.

Same for any buy order which is at or above the sells, and in range. It is a quick way to clear the market, set up a 5 jump or whatever buy order, set at the price of all the smaller orders.

It probably "will".
If you use your will to buy it before the force program autofills it, you can sell it to the auto-buy and force the profit to be yours.
You don't have to wait 5 minutes, 4 mins, 3 mins or 1 min, or less.


Edit:
Don't get me wrong, you could still prey to an ingenious (more ingenious or less ingenious but still ingenious enough to) margin trading scheme whereas the buyer on auto-fill removes his or her(s) order(s) before you can sell them or auto-sell them .
That means that you buy the items to make an almost instant profit, if in the station or system, and it backfires to zero profit 100% losses (until you short sell it, at a loss of profit).

Margin trading , profit margin and marginalization are not the same thing, no matter how close they are or can be.
I'm working on updating profit margin and other related business equations, but it does take longer than 5 minutes due to past marginalization(s).

Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#13 - 2015-12-31 16:15:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhivre
Buzz Orti wrote:
Rhivre wrote:
Buzz Orti wrote:


2. I believe that , while true in real life markets, this is not the case in EVE Online markets.
You can see items that are listed for less in sales, while more is offered in buy.
All you have to do is buy and sell and cash in the profit.
.



If there is a sell order which drops to the price of the buys on a station it will autofill.

Same for any buy order which is at or above the sells, and in range. It is a quick way to clear the market, set up a 5 jump or whatever buy order, set at the price of all the smaller orders.

It probably "will".
If you use your will to buy it before the force program autofills it, you can sell it to the auto-buy and force the profit to be yours.
You don't have to wait 5 minutes, 4 mins, 3 mins or 1 min, or less.


Edit:
Don't get me wrong, you could still prey to an ingenious (more ingenious or less ingenious but still ingenious enough to) margin trading scheme whereas the buyer on auto-fill removes his or her(s) order(s) before you can sell them or auto-sell them .
That means that you buy the items to make an almost instant profit, if in the station or system, and it backfires to zero profit 100% losses (until you short sell it, at a loss of profit).

Margin trading , profit margin and marginalization are not the same thing, no matter how close they are or can be.
I'm working on updating profit margin and other related business equations, but it does take longer than 5 minutes due to past marginalization(s).



No, what I am saying is...

If there are sell orders set up in a region like this:

10 items 1m @ 3 jumps
10 items 1.04m @ 4 jumps
10 items 1.13m @ 1 jump

and I set up a buy order for 300 units at 1.2m, with a 5 jump range, it will automatically take those three orders, leaving me with a buy order of 270 units at 1.2m, and I will have paid 1.2m for each of those modules, regardless of the price they are listed at.

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Buzz Orti
State War Academy
Caldari State
#14 - 2015-12-31 16:21:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzz Orti
Rhivre wrote:
Buzz Orti wrote:
Rhivre wrote:
Buzz Orti wrote:


2. I believe that , while true in real life markets, this is not the case in EVE Online markets.
You can see items that are listed for less in sales, while more is offered in buy.
All you have to do is buy and sell and cash in the profit.
.



If there is a sell order which drops to the price of the buys on a station it will autofill.

Same for any buy order which is at or above the sells, and in range. It is a quick way to clear the market, set up a 5 jump or whatever buy order, set at the price of all the smaller orders.

It probably "will".
If you use your will to buy it before the force program autofills it, you can sell it to the auto-buy and force the profit to be yours.
You don't have to wait 5 minutes, 4 mins, 3 mins or 1 min, or less.


Edit:
Don't get me wrong, you could still prey to an ingenious (more ingenious or less ingenious but still ingenious enough to) margin trading scheme whereas the buyer on auto-fill removes his or her(s) order(s) before you can sell them or auto-sell them .
That means that you buy the items to make an almost instant profit, if in the station or system, and it backfires to zero profit 100% losses (until you short sell it, at a loss of profit).

Margin trading , profit margin and marginalization are not the same thing, no matter how close they are or can be.
I'm working on updating profit margin and other related business equations, but it does take longer than 5 minutes due to past marginalization(s).



No, what I am saying is...

If there are sell orders set up in a region like this:

10 items 1m @ 3 jumps
10 items 1.04m @ 4 jumps
10 items 1.13m @ 1 jump

and I set up a buy order for 300 units at 1.2m, with a 5 jump range, it will automatically take those three orders, leaving me with a buy order of 270 units at 1.2m, and I will have paid 1.2m for each of those modules, regardless of the price they are listed at.
True to your logic offers in said station / system / region ranges, as replied in your last post.
However, where is your internal logic?

Edit:
Won't the sell order of 10 items 1m @ 3 jumps sell at 1m each and not 1.2m even if that is beside the point and diverting from the fact?

Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#15 - 2015-12-31 16:40:27 UTC
Buzz Orti wrote:

Edit:
Won't the sell order of 10 items 1m @ 3 jumps sell at 1m each and not 1.2m even if that is beside the point and diverting from the fact?



No.

If I have an item up for sale for 1.2m, and someone puts up a buy order in range for 2m, 10m, 500m, whatever, it will buy that item from me at the price they have specified.

Eve operates a broker system

This is how people sometimes pay 100m for frigates, and sell PLEX for 100m.

It is also why, when you are buying say, 500 T2 modules, and there are lots of smaller stacks, you will just pick the bigger stack, and buy from it, clearing all the small orders at the same time, but giving those guys some extra isk.



Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Buzz Orti
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2015-12-31 22:21:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzz Orti
It looks like if you put your order after theirs, that the price set first prevails.

In real stock market system, the highest buy price prevails, and then the second highest and so on...


Also, in your first rhethoric statement or argument, the orders you mentionned are related to covered range, external of the station, but valid for instant trade.

If the items order are not covered by range to sell, and show up for purchase to buy in range, you can buy them from a station without moving.
My current business model does not integrate EVE Online processes, which may change...

Edit:
But when you see an order for sale less than it is offered to be bought for under buy order, the only way it is not profitable is if the brokers fee or tax is more.

Otherwise, leave the order there, by all means, I will pick it up for you, post the screenshots in this thread and kiss you new years for the gift.

Edit 2:
Also, just because I use a tablet at Tim Horton's free wifi doesn't mean that I can't see your bunny pic.
What kind of bunny street is that one from?

Edit 3:
I know a $6,400 ship is not cheap, but a $100m PLEx, I mean, come on...

Edit 4:
Logging off, no internet until later on tomorrow or Saturday at 13:00.

Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#17 - 2016-01-02 03:38:38 UTC
Rhivre wrote:
Buzz Orti wrote:


2. I believe that , while true in real life markets, this is not the case in EVE Online markets.
You can see items that are listed for less in sales, while more is offered in buy.
All you have to do is buy and sell and cash in the profit.
.



If there is a sell order which drops to the price of the buys on a station it will autofill.

Same for any buy order which is at or above the sells, and in range. It is a quick way to clear the market, set up a 5 jump or whatever buy order, set at the price of all the smaller orders.


It should do but it doesn't

It is not uncommon to find buy orders that are higher than the sell orders in the same station - perhaps this is a lag issue
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#18 - 2016-01-02 03:42:49 UTC
Xotcl Gaterau wrote:
Can someone explain this to me?

In order for this to work, doesn't it mean you have to find an item that sells for less than the buy orders at that same station?

And isn't that impossible since a buy order that is more than a sell order is automatically filled?


I know this is basic, but i'm having trouble understanding.

I've looked at a bunch of station trading guides but none explain this basic point.

Thanks in advance for any help.


yes it does work how you describe anded is best avoided by people who think it works this way
Buzz Orti
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2016-01-02 04:38:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzz Orti
Not supposed to be posting here after my last post, but this is another forum,
and I do have a valid alt account (+one more alt on this account anyways)...

Day-trading buyer tip, lag also occurs in real life stock market.

However, in EVE Online, there is the added distance from station factors.
About 4 skills affect those, in regards to distance to view and distance to trade.
This working for both buy and sell, it results into 4 parameters.
Those range from station, to system, to 5 systems, to region, with one or 2 in between, for a total of 5 levels.

That means that , most likely, items that are traded or have placed orders rather , at distant stations or systems will appear from the same "station trading" window.
You may or may not be able to buy and sell those items on the spot, in the same station, if the skills requirements are met.

Further to those skills, the orders themselves affect the possibility or capacity for trading the items.
I may have something wrong with viewing the order, but it's not hard to verify with the EVElopedia under trade skills.
If the orders are placed for station only, or to region (if the person placing the order has skills to place to region) will affect the remote sale capacity.

In real life market what happens is that, when an order is filled to the floor agent, it takes the agent time to process them.
Those are not set order.
One order may or may not get through before other better ones.
That is why there are some precedence to offset potential delays...

Certain stocks are traded on set orders though.
Therefore, no matter what is placed , they will prevail, often with a discount.
I can see why preferred stocks would be perfect for that.

But yeah, I saw delays in a station with higher buy and lower sell.
I wouldn't wait too long to find when they were placed.
I mean, the only thing that can go wrong is margin trading.


In EVE Online, orders can be seen within regions, even if offered only at a station.
That means that those items cannot be dealt with unless moving to that station, in the same region, unless that regional skill level V are met.
(Which makes trading a charm.)

Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Gisele Serebriakova
Norman's Meat Market
#20 - 2016-01-05 21:35:29 UTC
All you're doing is renting some number of sell/buy slots from CCP, via PLEX, and, since there's no way, other then sell/buy slots, for players to access goods, you charge a premium to other players for accessing your slots. Functionally you're just a warehouse. Pseudo-anecdotally I'll add; the work/reward ratio seems quite low, i.e. you do not usually make a lot of isk per slot, but it scales with wealth well, in that it's very hard to simultaneously access, and profit from, 1 trillion isk in maurders+pilots, but pretty easy to access the profit from 1 trillion isk in materials you've got parked in Jita.
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