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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#4921 - 2015-12-21 08:23:37 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Jerghul wrote:
Brokk
You think bling is the determining factor that separates yolo yokels from good pvp pilots? A cloaked venture is also very risk adverse; small sig and inherent double stabs + low slots...its not something stopped easily even in transit to the camping system.


Flycatcher. Stopped your invasion dead in its tracks. You're welcome.


Or an anchored bubble and even better about 6-10 cans spread around the bubble edge to help with de-cloaking (not that ventures can warp while cloaked). And full of DPS ships and lots and lots of dead ventures.


Yeah, we nail a bunch of them like that. Got a nemesis just last night, so much for Invulnerability cloaks...Lol


Oh yeah... This again. Killing a ship with a cloak mounted is not killing a cloaked ship. Killing a ship capable of cloaking when it can't use the cloak means nothing about the balance of the cloak, especially considering the pilot of the cloaking ship is 100% in control of putting himself in that position. There is no nonconsent there, just bad luck and poor choices.

Tell me again how you counter an active cloak out in open space?



I had to manually decloak him. Try harder.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#4922 - 2015-12-21 08:34:25 UTC
False, or a lie.

You cannot even get on grid with him unless he allows it, or puts himself on grid with you.

It's entirely up to him, which is the problem.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#4923 - 2015-12-21 08:39:03 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Jerghul wrote:

I don't see how Concord's Pilot ID Service (PIDS) can be removed in any other way than by giving the function an entosis toggle on-off.

The service has to be seen in the context of Concord providing Gate Services to retain coherency.


I live in Angel space. I do not recognise Concord's authority; nor any other empire for that matter Blink

There is no good reason to suddenly declare "we forgot how to build a POS - but we can build some medium Citadels now?" either. Nor was there any good reason to one day undock my Hurricane and notice the neut I had there yesterday magically didn't fit anymore. The lore really has to take the backseat here. IF there is a way to make it fit lore-wise, great. If there ain't, too bad.

I can however comment on the stargates. The entosisable structure, the Gate, is in fact a replacement for the jump bridge generator. All other "regular" stargates must absolutely remain the way they are. Because of two reasons: for one, entosis mechanics demand notes to spawn in the constellation, which can be tricky if you just cleaved your constellation in half by shutting down the gate. And secondly, if constellation nodes are somehow a non-factor, there is the simple fact you can shut somebody out (or somebody can box you in) and there ain't nothing you can do about it. Provided you actually carry an entosis link - which most people don't - you cannot stop people on the other side from entosising same as they can't stop you. Because, you know, the gate is closed and all. This is a stalemate, or a deadlock.

Let's not even get into the absolute security you can have in a system nobody else can enter. So nope: I don't think CCP is going to do that. You can have your own custom-built Gate structures, but you can't mess with the predefined stargates. If you want to close a gate, then camp it.


Ha boxing in people while you burn all their **** to the ground. Yeah , no. Not going to happen. CCP would, I am sure, prefer fights to no fights. Bigger fights to smaller fights, and so forth. Fozziesov has reduced those are incentives, IMO. Letting an attacker close stargates and box in an alliances fleets will simplely make it worse.

Edit: pretty sure CONCORD operates/built the gates. I shot a gate by accident years ago and took a sec hit. Asked a GM and that was the response.



Stargates will never be closable because it allows the ultimate and final turtle defence. Man I'd rat in a Nyx for lols if the gates were closed.

I'm only part way though catching up on the thread and it's the same sperg from the usual folks. You've got lolgul just attacking posters at random because he is still not cognisant of the mechanics, making up asinine acronyms and generally just yammering gibberish every other post and then you've got Mike "I refuse to do a goddamned thing therefore I demand CCP take action" on the go as well.

Still no reasons offered as to why lowsec survive....Ironically there is a very good reason for this, ones you'd know for sure if you ever set foot out of highsec.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#4924 - 2015-12-21 08:47:41 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
False, or a lie.

You cannot even get on grid with him unless he allows it, or puts himself on grid with you.

It's entirely up to him, which is the problem.



Pray tell, do you magically arrive on a different grid to everyone else when you use a gate?

FFS man, try and actually play in the part of space you're commenting on.


"Waaaaa it's his choice to jump the gate"

Yup, just like it's your choice to not hope one system over and if he follows you, guess what, you can nail him to the wall.

But doubtless that "effort" is "unreasonable".
Mag's
Azn Empire
#4925 - 2015-12-21 12:00:47 UTC
Jarfool wrote:
Mags
Yes, not giving people the time of day is a pretty powerful insult. Which I will repeat: Pffft.
Indeed.
Just like your thoughts on this topic, it's done through mental gymnastics only. You spent no time actually posting a reply.

Or is it? Let me into your secret. Is it actually magic and does it grow in pairs? Straight

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#4926 - 2015-12-21 12:34:24 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
False, or a lie.

You cannot even get on grid with him unless he allows it, or puts himself on grid with you.

It's entirely up to him, which is the problem.



Pray tell, do you magically arrive on a different grid to everyone else when you use a gate?

FFS man, try and actually play in the part of space you're commenting on.


"Waaaaa it's his choice to jump the gate"

Yup, just like it's your choice to not hope one system over and if he follows you, guess what, you can nail him to the wall.

But doubtless that "effort" is "unreasonable".


He really does think that having to do anything more than push one button to defeat the cloaked player is unreasonable.

Having to change his isk printing fit is unreasonable.

Moving is unreasonable.

Baiting the guy is unreasonable.

Having a defense fleet ready is unreasonable.

Ignoring the guy is unreasonable.

Being expected to defend his own gates so no one gets in is unreasonable.

Being at his keyboard is unreasonable.

Apparently, playing the game at all is unreasonable. Hell, a bot would probably be more interesting than Mike is.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Anthar Thebess
#4927 - 2015-12-21 13:22:17 UTC
247 pages , no Dev post , nice :)

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#4928 - 2015-12-21 15:49:05 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:


Yeah, we nail a bunch of them like that. Got a nemesis just last night, so much for Invulnerability cloaks...Lol


Oh yeah... This again. Killing a ship with a cloak mounted is not killing a cloaked ship. Killing a ship capable of cloaking when it can't use the cloak means nothing about the balance of the cloak, especially considering the pilot of the cloaking ship is 100% in control of putting himself in that position. There is no nonconsent there, just bad luck and poor choices.

Tell me again how you counter an active cloak out in open space?



I had to manually decloak him. Try harder.


Yes, I've been making basically this point with Mike for ages. The cloaked ship is very safe at a safe spot and cloaked. As soon as he moves though he is at risk....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4929 - 2015-12-21 16:06:38 UTC
Morrigan and Teklos
This thread is about afk cloaky campers, or pilots that are undocked, in hostile space, afk, and safe.

4/4 era is over.

Learn to live with it.

I have not seen anyone complain when 3/4 is true. Your line of argument on gate decloaking is not only off-topic, its also a strawman argument

Karous
Its not about mike. Its about you.

Learn to pvp and you may not be have such a hysterical fear of losing your afk cloaky camper crutch.

Harden up would be the sum of it.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#4930 - 2015-12-21 16:44:39 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:


Yeah, we nail a bunch of them like that. Got a nemesis just last night, so much for Invulnerability cloaks...Lol


Oh yeah... This again. Killing a ship with a cloak mounted is not killing a cloaked ship. Killing a ship capable of cloaking when it can't use the cloak means nothing about the balance of the cloak, especially considering the pilot of the cloaking ship is 100% in control of putting himself in that position. There is no nonconsent there, just bad luck and poor choices.

Tell me again how you counter an active cloak out in open space?



I had to manually decloak him. Try harder.


Yes, I've been making basically this point with Mike for ages. The cloaked ship is very safe at a safe spot and cloaked. As soon as he moves though he is at risk....


Not very safe. Immune. Utterly, completely, for as long as he chooses.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#4931 - 2015-12-21 16:46:45 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
False, or a lie.

You cannot even get on grid with him unless he allows it, or puts himself on grid with you.

It's entirely up to him, which is the problem.



Pray tell, do you magically arrive on a different grid to everyone else when you use a gate?

FFS man, try and actually play in the part of space you're commenting on.


"Waaaaa it's his choice to jump the gate"

Yup, just like it's your choice to not hope one system over and if he follows you, guess what, you can nail him to the wall.

But doubtless that "effort" is "unreasonable".

...and how do you make him go to a gate? Is there anyway at all to force action upon him, or is it entirely his choice?

Yeah. It's his choice. There is no nonconsent for him, just those he hunts. That's a problem.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#4932 - 2015-12-21 23:23:34 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
False, or a lie.

You cannot even get on grid with him unless he allows it, or puts himself on grid with you.

It's entirely up to him, which is the problem.



Pray tell, do you magically arrive on a different grid to everyone else when you use a gate?

FFS man, try and actually play in the part of space you're commenting on.


"Waaaaa it's his choice to jump the gate"

Yup, just like it's your choice to not hope one system over and if he follows you, guess what, you can nail him to the wall.

But doubtless that "effort" is "unreasonable".

...and how do you make him go to a gate? Is there anyway at all to force action upon him, or is it entirely his choice?

Yeah. It's his choice. There is no nonconsent for him, just those he hunts. That's a problem.


I don’t see the problem. There are steps that can be taken to deal with the problem. Yes, those steps do not let you deal with the problem directly while he is cloaked at a safe spot, but I don’t see why one should be able to always deal with a problem directly. There is no way to deal directly with freighter bumping, best approach…don’t let yourself get bumped. And with a cloak comes some penalties such as poor DPS or poor tank or both.

Further, if the guy wants to sit at a safe day-after-day no matter what I do in system to preserve that “no nonconsent”, “immunity”, etc. that’s fine by me. Once I determine he is going to do nothing, no matter what I’m doing I’ll just go about my business as if he were not there because, in effect, he is not there.

It is like getting upset because a guy is docked and never undocks.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4933 - 2015-12-21 23:25:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerghul
Mike
All he is saying is afk campy cloaking does not cause issues when the afk campy cloaker is not afk.

Which is both OT and a strawman argument as no one actually disagrees with afk cloaky camping not being a problem when the pilot is at the computer and actively flying the ship.

Stunning the intellect you are confronted with. Just stunning.

1. Undocked
2. In hostile space
3. AFK
4. Safe

3/4 is fine. 4/4 is going to end.

Teckos
Its fine that you don't see the problem. Eve can after all be understood at many levels. Feel free to carry on understanding it at your own pace.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#4934 - 2015-12-22 00:15:49 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
False, or a lie.

You cannot even get on grid with him unless he allows it, or puts himself on grid with you.

It's entirely up to him, which is the problem.



Pray tell, do you magically arrive on a different grid to everyone else when you use a gate?

FFS man, try and actually play in the part of space you're commenting on.


"Waaaaa it's his choice to jump the gate"

Yup, just like it's your choice to not hope one system over and if he follows you, guess what, you can nail him to the wall.

But doubtless that "effort" is "unreasonable".

...and how do you make him go to a gate? Is there anyway at all to force action upon him, or is it entirely his choice?

Yeah. It's his choice. There is no nonconsent for him, just those he hunts. That's a problem.


I don’t see the problem. There are steps that can be taken to deal with the problem. Yes, those steps do not let you deal with the problem directly while he is cloaked at a safe spot, but I don’t see why one should be able to always deal with a problem directly. There is no way to deal directly with freighter bumping, best approach…don’t let yourself get bumped. And with a cloak comes some penalties such as poor DPS or poor tank or both.

Further, if the guy wants to sit at a safe day-after-day no matter what I do in system to preserve that “no nonconsent”, “immunity”, etc. that’s fine by me. Once I determine he is going to do nothing, no matter what I’m doing I’ll just go about my business as if he were not there because, in effect, he is not there.

It is like getting upset because a guy is docked and never undocks.

You don't see the problem because it benefits you.

There is a direct counter to freighter bumping, though it results in concord...which is the part I object to with that as well, that self defense is concordable.

You cannot determine he is going to do nothing. You can observe he has done nothing yet. It is a certainty that he will, it's a question of when.

It is exactly like Russian roulette, except the camper is in control of all the rules. Are we using a six shooter? Do we spin the bullets each time? Is there only one bullet?... There are hundreds of variations and all your garbage math depends on the basic assumptions that you have no way to confirm until he is on grid and tackling you...which means you are dead. Even if you were correct on every assumption, their acting is eventually guranteed, and your answer is that it's ok because he is hunting and should be safe while doing so. Basically you are saying it's ok because it's your side benefiting and you don't see a problem.

But even after all that, the issue is about non-consent. He chooses everything. There is no way to force his hand in any way.

And being upset because a guy won't undock is exactly what created afk cloaked camping. Except that docks are supposed to be safe, it's possible to confirm you are docked, docked limits you more than a cloak does, and the undock can be camped providing both opportunity to see when the ship becomes active and to catch it before it can act. You know... Apply nonconsensual PvP to it.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#4935 - 2015-12-22 00:33:21 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:

You don't see the problem because it benefits you.


Wrong.

You don't see that it's balanced because you don't like it, and you're entitled.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4936 - 2015-12-22 05:14:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Brokk Witgenstein
Want a prime example of (1) Undocked (2) Safe in 'hostile space' (3) almost AFK and making sh!tloads of ISK in the process (4) not even cloaked?

Rattlesnakes running missions in null, not a care in the world.

Want to know why? Because you can't light a cyno when on-grid with the acceleration gates, can't "warp to" inside a complex, and a simple can will decloak anything that would try to slowboat and grab you inside -- provided you didn't pick the ship nor the core probes up on DScan. THAT's exactly how safe the ratters are.

Undocked, making ISK, perfectly 100% safe.

Care to comment on how unacceptable it is for a ship that's not doing anything to be undocked yet safe?
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4937 - 2015-12-22 05:42:10 UTC
Now, to bring my point home - allow me to add you CAN catch those Rattlers or Tengus or whatever. Not saying they're invincible; not at all! You can grab them or bubble them or ..... when they're on the move.

Mmmm..... where have I heard that before? Safe until moving? Sounds awfully familiar doesn't it?
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4938 - 2015-12-22 06:37:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerghul
Brokk
Metas are always OP. Which is the topic for a different discussion.
Speed tanked 4/4 is something to be wary of and fixed the same way Metas are.

Unsafe until moving assumes active pilot intervention to be safe (and indeed a move I think cloaky campers will make if scanned down. So not afk. (you meant unsafe until moving I think).

Gates do not make the afk pilot safe.

No one is arguing that the chance to catch undocked, in hostile space, afk, and not safe pilots needs to mean they are at much risk. I would prefer it to be quite the collaborative chore to hunt them down, and when you do, you risk being sniped all to hell before they warp off anyway if the pilot turned out to be ATK after all.

Karous
Stop projecting. The thread topic is about your entitled synonym for donkey 4/4. Its not about Mike.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#4939 - 2015-12-22 07:04:51 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Its not about Mike.


But it is.

It's about Mike, you, and all the other whiners who think they have the right to ever be safe while engaged in PvE in nullsec space. It's about people who think they're entitled to have uncertainty taken away so they don't have to make any hard choices, or any tradeoffs. It's about people who think that other players should have less player freedom so they can just sit back and farm all day long.

The only reason the thread exists at all is your entitlement and selfishness.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#4940 - 2015-12-22 07:42:07 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:

You don't see the problem because it benefits you.


So even if I did it, how would it benefit me?

More ISK? No.
More resources? No.
More kills? No (can't kill while either AFK or cloaked...let alone both).

Sooo...this benefit thingy?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online