These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2941 - 2015-12-17 16:03:29 UTC
Avvy wrote:
It's not content that's always the issue, it's how the content has been woven into the rest of the game that tends to dictate to the player if they need to do it or not.
Yes indeed. The problem here is that most new content will pretty much be delivered in the same way, and be optional, but when it comes in it makes other things redundant or replaces them entirely, meaning that anyone doing the old content feels like they are being pushed. The sov changes are a prime example. Noone is being forced to play with sov lasers, but the issue people have is they never had to deal with sov lasers to keep their space, but now they do, so to anyone that wants to keep sov they have to interact with the new mechanics. In the same way if new content comes in and is a better way to make isk for example, people will complain that their old content isn't as good and that forces them into the new content.

Really, it's a no-win situation. There's always going to be an element of unrest when new mecahnics come in or when old mechanics get refreshed. CCP need to get into the mindest of saying "HTFU" again and just doing what they feel is best taking on board the feedback from players and the CSM, without buckling under the pressure of whiners QQing. If that means they change EVE over the long term to keep it alive, so be it. I'd rather the game changes and continues to exist than remains restricted to outdated ideology and dies.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Top Guac
Doomheim
#2942 - 2015-12-17 21:54:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Top Guac
Lucas Kell wrote:
There's always going to be an element of unrest when new mecahnics come in or when old mechanics get refreshed. CCP need to get into the mindest of saying "HTFU" again and just doing what they feel is best taking on board the feedback from players and the CSM, without buckling under the pressure of whiners QQing. If that means they change EVE over the long term to keep it alive, so be it. I'd rather the game changes and continues to exist than remains restricted to outdated ideology and dies.

I've always classified the developers into 3 groups:

1. Too familiar
The devs/designers that constantly listen to player feedback and implement one thing, only for new complaints to appear about the very thing they changed. They listen to the vocal minority, when the majority are ok with things. These are the guys that we see a lot in the community (oops, I mean whatever we are), Fozzie being a prime example. He's in a no-win situation. He pleases one group, only to be hammered by another.

2. Listen and do
The devs and designers that look at what the community is saying and then just get on and make changes as they see are appropriate. No one complains about what the results are because generally they deliver features that we have been asking for and in a way that makes sense because the development is not cluttered by a thousand different voices telling them how it should be. Karkur is a great example with the little things. Everyone loves the things she adds into the game.

3. ****-U
The ones that don't seem to care what the community wants and make changes that they think are needed, even though from a player perspective we don't see an issue. These are the change to icons, change to damage control, etc. changes. Things no one ever wanted and mostly don't appreciate when they come out because there was no expectation of the change coming.

We need more of the listen and do group, who just passively watch what we are saying and then develop mechanics and features around those concepts based on their professional knowledge and skills of how to achieve them.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2943 - 2015-12-17 23:49:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Top Guac wrote:
I've always classified the developers into 3 groups:

1. Too familiar
The devs/designers that constantly listen to player feedback and implement one thing, only for new complaints to appear about the very thing they changed. They listen to the vocal minority, when the majority are ok with things. These are the guys that we see a lot in the community (oops, I mean whatever we are), Fozzie being a prime example. He's in a no-win situation. He pleases one group, only to be hammered by another.

2. Listen and do
The devs and designers that look at what the community is saying and then just get on and make changes as they see are appropriate. No one complains about what the results are because generally they deliver features that we have been asking for and in a way that makes sense because the development is not cluttered by a thousand different voices telling them how it should be. Karkur is a great example with the little things. Everyone loves the things she adds into the game.

3. ****-U
The ones that don't seem to care what the community wants and make changes that they think are needed, even though from a player perspective we don't see an issue. These are the change to icons, change to damage control, etc. changes. Things no one ever wanted and mostly don't appreciate when they come out because there was no expectation of the change coming.

We need more of the listen and do group, who just passively watch what we are saying and then develop mechanics and features around those concepts based on their professional knowledge and skills of how to achieve them.
I tend to disagree. While "listen and do" developers fair well with small changes, big changes still come with a mass of uproar, and generally end up making so many decision changes to appeal to whiners that they end up broken.

I'd rather see more "****-U" devs. I'd rather trust professionals to make the design decisions for the game, rather than bend to every whim of the community. Now that's not to say they shouldn't listen to people, they should just be much more capable of trusting their own judgement and not compromising at every turn fearing that someone will get upset. Pretty much devs that fall directly between those two categories.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Miodrag Anovic
TIePerPeB
Legion of xXDEATHXx
#2944 - 2015-12-18 02:21:16 UTC
I wonder when i read this comments of a people who defend new claim mechanics,did you guys ever try to claim anything under it?How can you say its developing of the game?There is nothing more borring ingame from fozzie sov system.From place where alliances and coalitions confront their fleets they created ,i dont have a word to describe what they created but look at yourself how does it look and how it was.
fozzie sov new thrilling claim mechanics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afnBLjjTMeA
Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#2945 - 2015-12-18 02:38:24 UTC
Top Guac wrote:

I've always classified the developers into 3 groups:
I feel like there's a type of developer that designs for the game that "they" want to play. Maybe that's part of your group 3, but I'm thinking more of gameplay rather than cosmetics. Frequently it favors one group of players over another.

What I feel is currently missing is the "visionary" dev. Someone that just knows where the game should be going even if no one thought to ask for it or complain about it. Someone who can add whole new aspects to Eve like wormholes or faction warfare.







Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#2946 - 2015-12-18 03:51:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Paul Pohl
Shiloh Templeton wrote:
Top Guac wrote:

I've always classified the developers into 3 groups:
I feel like there's a type of developer that designs for the game that "they" want to play. Maybe that's part of your group 3, but I'm thinking more of gameplay rather than cosmetics. Frequently it favors one group of players over another.

What I feel is currently missing is the "visionary" dev. Someone that just knows where the game should be going even if no one thought to ask for it or complain about it. Someone who can add whole new aspects to Eve like wormholes or faction warfare.


I'd just rather the game made logical sense.

If you run faction missions you fall out with the opposing faction - fine you can't go to that faction's space - make other plans, deal with it

At least be consistent and apply the same mechanic to security status and CONCORD

Which immediately gets mis-represented as 'oh you whiner! you hate gankers!' - uh no - it's bad game design... and the claim that it is creating 'content' is as laughable as the concept of 'content' itself... or indeed that those doing it are role-players....

Equally it makes little sense to set up a whole back story about this faction hates that faction, and yet sitting outside of the Caldari War Academy is a Gallenti battleship griefing new players - and worse a check of the player info reveals the player has medals from their corp for blowing up 'noobs'

I am told I should report the player - but what's the point?

Isnt this precisely the game as described by CCP Falcon when he claimed you should be frightened to undock?

I'm all for content - I'm all for PvP - and griefing - and all the the other stuff

But shouldn't the devs - however one catagorises them - say to the coders - 'uh you know that gallente battleship popping ibis's outside the Caldari academy? Well it's kind of a problem? Because, you know, like, we are kind of trying to sell the game to players on the idea that, it kind of sort of matters, what faction they, kind of sort of, choose? Like, you know? And it kind of, sort, puts off new players when they get blown up when they get tricked into opening a can."

- at which, point no doubt, CCP Falcon bounds into the office - wearing his orange 'community representative' sash - and hoodwinks everyone into believing that it all makes sense because the game is not meant make to make any sense,... and anyway driving away potential customers is 'content'.... and this is a 'niche' game, so you can't expect everyone to play... and a brief look at the database shows the battleship is owned by an alt of someone he went drinking with at fan-fest (I'm not saying it is, but using it comedic-dramatic effect), who happens to be (in crossing zebras terminology) 'a somebody in the game' - and the potential customer for CCP was just that - and since they have quit, they are not in the 'community' and would have been a 'nobody' anyway (or they wouldn't have quit) - or worse they might have been a 'somebody' - which would have threatened the 'somebody' who he went drinking with, and always up-votes his posts on reddit (queue the new marketing person from Disney shaking her head)

and anyway depriving pirates from the major trade hubs (on account of their security status) would ruin the game - and no one should attempt to do anything about security status (or making the game logical) - as this would deprive the game of valuable content - i.e. stopping relationships being formed that could challenge his drinking buddies at fan-fest...or worse fill up the empty spaces of low and null sec... let's ignore for the time being that those 'somebodies' were formed at a time when there were no wardecs in highsec, low and null were empty, and they couldn't even duel....

at which point, no doubt, a few of the other devs (who are obsessed with statistics)(providing they do not include any random element, that would actually balance the game by allowed a 1,000,000 to 1 chance of a friigate making a Titan go BOOM) trail in and suggest hat maybe if they gave the Ibis 10% less cap, it would make the fight quicker, so the bright eyed new-player - wowed by the beautiful graphics, and thrilled by the prospect of finally not playing an MMO that doesn't tell them what to do, while barking 'VERBOTTEN' whenever you dare to stray from the carefully constructed path - will just get into another ship quciker (assuming they don't quit (not least because of the conversation that occurs when they ask why they got shot) (and not understanding that this is not part of the tutorial)) and carry on playing this game....

yes it's a satyr....
Top Guac
Doomheim
#2947 - 2015-12-18 04:30:02 UTC
Satyr more.

It's tastes salty and the salt is good.
Solecist Project
#2948 - 2015-12-18 10:24:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Paul Pohl wrote:
Shiloh Templeton wrote:
Top Guac wrote:

I've always classified the developers into 3 groups:
I feel like there's a type of developer that designs for the game that "they" want to play. Maybe that's part of your group 3, but I'm thinking more of gameplay rather than cosmetics. Frequently it favors one group of players over another.

What I feel is currently missing is the "visionary" dev. Someone that just knows where the game should be going even if no one thought to ask for it or complain about it. Someone who can add whole new aspects to Eve like wormholes or faction warfare.


I'd just rather the game made logical sense.

If you run faction missions you fall out with the opposing faction - fine you can't go to that faction's space - make other plans, deal with it

At least be consistent and apply the same mechanic to security status and CONCORD
Your whole idea is built on a serious lack of understanding of gameplay and mechanics.

Absolutely MOST of what you write is built on this lack of understanding of gameplay and mechanics ...
... combined with personal issues you have with people who show you what you're worth!

The faction navy, which you would "suffer" from in your case, is easily dealt with. They don't even scram.
You can always enter any system anywhere and deal with them, even in a 1.0sec. I've done that as -10.

Which brings us to the next part. -10 are getting hunted by the faction POLICE!
They scram and hit hard. Nothing like your silly "hindrance" that would be sufficient to keep the likes of you out.

Then there's CONCORD, who do not care about security status at all.
They care about criminal offenses.


You have no ground to suggest any ideas, because you lack the understanding of how things work.

And stop saying "you can't go into that space", because it is WRONG, okay?


Goddammit ...

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#2949 - 2015-12-19 00:25:55 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Absolutely MOST of what you write is built on this lack of understanding of gameplay and mechanics ...
... combined with personal issues you have with people who show you what you're worth!

The faction navy, which you would "suffer" from in your case, is easily dealt with. They don't even scram.
You can always enter any system anywhere and deal with them, even in a 1.0sec. I've done that as -10.

Which brings us to the next part. -10 are getting hunted by the faction POLICE!
They scram and hit hard. Nothing like your silly "hindrance" that would be sufficient to keep the likes of you out.

Then there's CONCORD, who do not care about security status at all.
They care about criminal offenses.


You have no ground to suggest any ideas, because you lack the understanding of how things work.

And stop saying "you can't go into that space", because it is WRONG, okay?


Goddammit ...


I have no personal issues with anyone... that strawman says more about you

The faction POLICE already hunt you down, if you have a low standing with them... CONCORD isn't the police.... check your lore


I have no idea what this means - "Nothing like your silly "hindrance" that would be sufficient to keep the likes of you out." - and neither do you

"And stop saying "you can't go into that space", because it is WRONG, okay?" - fine... let's have a class action to report the bug that stops people who have run faction missions from entering the space forthe faction they have been killing.

Let's face it, you're just scared to go into low sec... and CCP are scared to make you....
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#2950 - 2015-12-19 00:36:36 UTC
Faction police even helpfully web you into warp I think.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2951 - 2015-12-19 11:12:53 UTC  |  Edited by: La Rynx
Lucas Kell wrote:
I'd rather see more "****-U" devs. I'd rather trust professionals to make the design decisions for the game, rather than bend to every whim of the community. Now that's not to say they shouldn't listen to people, they should just be much more capable of trusting their own judgement and not compromising at every turn fearing that someone will get upset. Pretty much devs that fall directly between those two categories.


I agree, some "themes" the "community" talks about are dead horses or red herings.
Neither "plex prices" nor "risk aversion" are real existing problems.

Good changes hurt.
Best example IMO is much hated "fozzy sov". It has been done for a good reason, no matter how much ppl where pissed of. Since a gamer coaliton got so strong grew so strong, that it could project their power over all new eden, there had to be done something. But there is the problem: the sov holder belong to probably the biggest group of players.
How do you change something, that will pi-ss of that many players without loosing to many of them?

Whatever CCP changes, there will always be people who hate those changes.
community whishes?
hell no!
They made frostline where you can get very expensive stuff by luck.
And everything peachy?
Nope!

Try cutting to the basics.
What might all players want?
I say: entertainment.
Thats why i prefer operation frostline over "the 12 lads".
"something given has no value".
You want something? Do frostline!
It feels much more rewarding if you win great stuff with effort, than everyone getting mediocre stuff that most ppl do not care of.

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
Jade Blackwind
#2952 - 2015-12-19 11:25:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Blackwind
Paul Pohl wrote:
yes it's a satyr....
Doesn't look like one to me. No horns, no hooves, and a distinct lack of hair.
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#2953 - 2015-12-19 11:49:31 UTC
Paul Pohl wrote:
The faction POLICE already hunt you down, if you have a low standing with them... CONCORD isn't the police.... check your lore


So, if they shoot because they don't like you = police

but

if they shoot because you've just commited a crime = not the police ?

... are you from the US ?

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Buzz Orti
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2954 - 2015-12-19 15:50:13 UTC
Should we make a schedule for when we plan to be able to read this?

Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
lost packet
Alpha Flight
#2955 - 2015-12-19 17:23:25 UTC
Buzz Orti wrote:
Should we make a schedule for when we plan to be able to read this?



Someone could turn it in to a book?

Alpha Flight are recruiting pilots | Almost Broken are recruiting corporations
Buzz Orti
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2956 - 2015-12-19 18:22:01 UTC
lost packet wrote:
Buzz Orti wrote:
Should we make a schedule for when we plan to be able to read this?



Someone could turn it in to a book?

Or a periodical.

Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#2957 - 2015-12-23 07:55:31 UTC
Doh, it was rumored and now I can confirm it: the new low for EVE subscription price/value it's 3.33 € per month. Whereas my main account got her usual return offer at 9.99 € for the first month, a old and almost forgotten alt account I registered years ago has got a return offer of 3 months for 9.99 €.

I appreciate the offer, although on one hand I got a PLEX from a Frostline site, so Ish will make a comeback for free courtesy of CCP, and on the other hand 3.33 € is so low that I am tempted to wait for the next logical step: 1 month for 0.99 €. Or downright for free, if CCP's financial hassle for payments abroad doesn't justifies for transactions too small.

The funny thing with these kind of sales is that they never are a good sign. The harm to perceived value is only agreed to when there's a need for the extra income they may provide, not just from direct purchase of the sale but from reactivated subscriptions. In the best case these offers are a lesser evil... in the worst they don't even pay themselves back.

See CCP, I don't want you to give me your game for free. I want to pay you 45 euros each month as I did once, and be proud to play EVE Online. It's up to you to make it worth it for me and what likely is a very large chunk of your customers...

Past, present and very specially future customers.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#2958 - 2015-12-23 08:15:32 UTC
lost packet wrote:
Buzz Orti wrote:
Should we make a schedule for when we plan to be able to read this?



Someone could turn it in to a book?

It would have to be a ring bound book. That way the front page can flip around to the back page.

After a few pages you'd be back where you started and could just repeat the same pages again...and again...and again.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2959 - 2015-12-25 12:21:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Doh, it was rumored and now I can confirm it: the new low for EVE subscription price/value it's 3.33 € per month. Whereas my main account got her usual return offer at 9.99 € for the first month, a old and almost forgotten alt account I registered years ago has got a return offer of 3 months for 9.99 €.

I appreciate the offer, although on one hand I got a PLEX from a Frostline site, so Ish will make a comeback for free courtesy of CCP, and on the other hand 3.33 € is so low that I am tempted to wait for the next logical step: 1 month for 0.99 €. Or downright for free, if CCP's financial hassle for payments abroad doesn't justifies for transactions too small.

The funny thing with these kind of sales is that they never are a good sign. The harm to perceived value is only agreed to when there's a need for the extra income they may provide, not just from direct purchase of the sale but from reactivated subscriptions. In the best case these offers are a lesser evil... in the worst they don't even pay themselves back.

See CCP, I don't want you to give me your game for free. I want to pay you 45 euros each month as I did once, and be proud to play EVE Online. It's up to you to make it worth it for me and what likely is a very large chunk of your customers...

Past, present and very specially future customers.


I totally agree. I have "won" my EvE objectives (getting to hundreds of billions worth in ISK and assets) but I could not stand playing EvE as a "game".

When I started back in 2008, I joined because I wanted to PvP in a spaceships "sim". Shortly after I got the first cold shower: EvE is not a spaceships "sim". It's actually a submarines-with-spaceships-skin sim. Not only that, I couldn't actually "sit" inside my ship. I have done faction PvP and corp PvP in a great corp, but at a certain point the game turned into "zerg vs zerg" and that has been the nail on the coffin for my SPACE experiences.
I went on and learned the EvE markets and it has been awesome. However it's possibly one of the few EvE features that only got a couple of merely cosmetic touches in more than a decade so after years and years it grew stale on me. Plus I had the choice: earn in the EvE markets or earn in real life in the markets and the choice was easy.

Now, a number of "spacesim" games are slowly coming out and they feature a shallow economy but good "spaceship sim".

I believe low numbers are a consequence of that. I won't mention the names, but I am currently enjoying one of these games and experiencing close-to-daily server hiccups because of the massive amount of players joining them. Players who can accept a less player driven economy (or don't care at all) but really want the spaceship to fly!

So, it's not the "space sim" niche that is drying up. It's EvE's space sim niche that is bleeding.

Valkyrie can't come too soon, and for the CCP's own good, I hope they'll make it possible to jump from your EvE ship => Valkirie "version" of the same ship.
EvE enjoyed a decade of basically zero competition. Now the good times are over.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#2960 - 2015-12-25 12:36:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
SC is not an EVE competitor. SC is a really funky looking 1st person (albeit with 3rd person Freelancer controls as well, could it be that the whole "intricate 1st person controls" are just fake) eyegasm that is currently being hyped based on dreams and unicorns. A game with very limited server structure and lots of instancing and you can even do a "leave me alone" option just as in E:D. This means that it's not exactly a persistent world because just like E:D's approach it's flawed beyond belief from an MMO pov.

EVE IS a persistent world where you can't shield yourself from the other players (for good or bad) and is an ever evolving actual MMO with lots of player interaction. People who aren't really in to the whole interaction thing will love SC and they will move to SC, nothing wrong with that. Those are the people who never actually contributed to the sandbox so from a game pov nothing changes. CCP will of course lose revenue but that also allows (and forces) them to focus more on the core game play, which is good for the people who joined EVE for that core game play.

They just both happen to have a space theme.