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Standing issues
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Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#21 - 2015-12-18 08:04:33 UTC
I agree that having some sort of notifications would be a good idea. DOnt make is crazyly intrusive.

Quote:
The EVE Wiki is not a third party website. And the information are available if you use your brain, as demonstrated in the gasoline analogy.


Do you use that same methodology with all of the games you play? Do you buy a game and then spend the next few weeks reading all of the guides ect and trawling the interwebs for ways you may stuff up and only then play?

As a newbie you are inherently stupid (at the game), telling newbs to not be newbs is a bit pointless.

Quote:
If someone hands you gasoline (a mission against another High sec empire faction) and you set it on fire (shoot this High sec empire faction's military) knowing that it is gasoline (the mission states explicitly that you are going to shoot another High sec empire faction's assets), you are beyond help and even popups won't help you.


What about derived standings? Its not overly intuitive for newbs. Throw Gasoline on Bob and suddenly you are friends with Jill and enemies with Jim and unless you drill down into each faction and agent its not stated in the mission at all.

Also I'm pretty sure CPP has said that the don't like people having to leave the client to get information, that's why they are looking at integrating EFT functionality into eve.


Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#22 - 2015-12-18 18:01:03 UTC
Andrew Indy wrote:


What about derived standings? Its not overly intuitive for newbs. Throw Gasoline on Bob and suddenly you are friends with Jill and enemies with Jim and unless you drill down into each faction and agent its not stated in the mission at all.

Also I'm pretty sure CPP has said that the don't like people having to leave the client to get information, that's why they are looking at integrating EFT functionality into eve.



A potential here could be to change the standings portion of it in the info window of the factions to a percent factor instead of seeing

Amarr Empire > Caldari State +5.00

change it to

Amarr Empire > Caldari State +50%

It would probably make it a bit more sense when you first look at it to see that if I gain 1% standings with the Amarr, I should gain 0.5% standings with the Caldari.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Alexis Nightwish
#23 - 2015-12-18 18:21:18 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
...if you would use the gray goo to think...The magic word here is THINK....Now stop complaining about your own lack of intelligence and get the L1 mission grind on, fool.

Iain Cariaba wrote:
Rubbing two brain cells together will allow you to figure out how to find a standings repair plan using google.

Rivr Luzade wrote:
And the information are available if you use your brain, as demonstrated in the gasoline analogy.

Bumblefck wrote:
Your ignorance is no justification for changing the system.


I think I'm starting to see why new player retention is low when people like you treat new players like **** for being new.

Additionally, just because information is available external to the game, that is not an excuse to not explain it within the game.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Iain Cariaba
#24 - 2015-12-18 19:10:45 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
...if you would use the gray goo to think...The magic word here is THINK....Now stop complaining about your own lack of intelligence and get the L1 mission grind on, fool.

Iain Cariaba wrote:
Rubbing two brain cells together will allow you to figure out how to find a standings repair plan using google.

Rivr Luzade wrote:
And the information are available if you use your brain, as demonstrated in the gasoline analogy.

Bumblefck wrote:
Your ignorance is no justification for changing the system.


I think I'm starting to see why new player retention is low when people like you treat new players like **** for being new.

Additionally, just because information is available external to the game, that is not an excuse to not explain it within the game.

I expect nothing of new players that I haven't done myself.

EvE is hard. EvE is harsh, cold, and cruel. Those that fit well in this game, be they newbies or bittervets, recognize and appreciate this. Critical thinking and problem solving skills are the most useful tools you can ever get for EvE. If you need the system to hold your hand as you make your way through the game, then this is not the game for you.

There is no shame in this, the shame comes from trying to turn EvE into Carebear Wonderland. Sure, OP's idea alone wouldn't instantly turn EvE into this, but, if CCP were to implement every idea that someone using your thought process suggested, then we woukd quickly lose the essence of that which is EvE.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#25 - 2015-12-19 06:44:03 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:

I expect nothing of new players that I haven't done myself.

EvE is hard. EvE is harsh, cold, and cruel. Those that fit well in this game, be they newbies or bittervets, recognize and appreciate this. Critical thinking and problem solving skills are the most useful tools you can ever get for EvE. If you need the system to hold your hand as you make your way through the game, then this is not the game for you.

There is no shame in this, the shame comes from trying to turn EvE into Carebear Wonderland. Sure, OP's idea alone wouldn't instantly turn EvE into this, but, if CCP were to implement every idea that someone using your thought process suggested, then we woukd quickly lose the essence of that which is EvE.


You should try to apply some of those critical thinking skills to what should and should not be standard information available in game.

The only unique thing in EvE is how you are allowed to apply what you know. It's not hand holding to show a mason a pile of bricks, mortar mix and a pile of tools before sendmail ing him to work. It's not hand holding to explain the rules of the game to a new player either.
Iain Cariaba
#26 - 2015-12-19 08:35:19 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:

I expect nothing of new players that I haven't done myself.

EvE is hard. EvE is harsh, cold, and cruel. Those that fit well in this game, be they newbies or bittervets, recognize and appreciate this. Critical thinking and problem solving skills are the most useful tools you can ever get for EvE. If you need the system to hold your hand as you make your way through the game, then this is not the game for you.

There is no shame in this, the shame comes from trying to turn EvE into Carebear Wonderland. Sure, OP's idea alone wouldn't instantly turn EvE into this, but, if CCP were to implement every idea that someone using your thought process suggested, then we woukd quickly lose the essence of that which is EvE.


You should try to apply some of those critical thinking skills to what should and should not be standard information available in game.

The only unique thing in EvE is how you are allowed to apply what you know. It's not hand holding to show a mason a pile of bricks, mortar mix and a pile of tools before sendmail ing him to work. It's not hand holding to explain the rules of the game to a new player either.

If it were difficult to find the information, I might agree with you. However, it's rather simple to locate the information, and failing to do so, rather easy to remedy the consequences of not knowing.

Your analogy of a mason is rather misleading in this instance. A better analogy would be obtaining a university degree. Yes, you are provided some information, but you are still required to study, research, and learn on your own.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#27 - 2015-12-19 09:01:29 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:

If it were difficult to find the information, I might agree with you. However, it's rather simple to locate the information, and failing to do so, rather easy to remedy the consequences of not knowing.

Your analogy of a mason is rather misleading in this instance. A better analogy would be obtaining a university degree. Yes, you are provided some information, but you are still required to study, research, and learn on your own.


Easy for who? For us, the people who have been playing the game for years? Or to the guy that is still on a trial account and still looks for the undock button every time he tries to undock?

So you are against adding at a minimum, of 2 dialog boxes when someone hits -2.00 and -5.00 standings warning them that if they continue running missions against this faction, bad things will happen. You see, the game should have the most basic information about the game, in the game itself as you experience something new. If you want detailed information, at that point you should have to go to a website.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Iain Cariaba
#28 - 2015-12-19 09:10:21 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:

If it were difficult to find the information, I might agree with you. However, it's rather simple to locate the information, and failing to do so, rather easy to remedy the consequences of not knowing.

Your analogy of a mason is rather misleading in this instance. A better analogy would be obtaining a university degree. Yes, you are provided some information, but you are still required to study, research, and learn on your own.


Easy for who? For us, the people who have been playing the game for years? Or to the guy that is still on a trial account and still looks for the undock button every time he tries to undock?

So you are against adding at a minimum, of 2 dialog boxes when someone hits -2.00 and -5.00 standings warning them that if they continue running missions against this faction, bad things will happen. You see, the game should have the most basic information about the game, in the game itself as you experience something new. If you want detailed information, at that point you should have to go to a website.

First off, a -2.0 standing with a faction is irrelevant. A -2.0 security status has penalties, but standins with a corp are meaningless at this stage.

Secondly, by the time a "new player" reaches -5.0 standing with any faction, they should know that most information for the game is provided out of game. It takes a while to drop to -5.0 standing unless you're involved in FW, so your imaginary trial account player simply doesn't need the warning.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#29 - 2015-12-19 09:16:53 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:

First off, a -2.0 standing with a faction is irrelevant. A -2.0 security status has penalties, but standins with a corp are meaningless at this stage.

Secondly, by the time a "new player" reaches -5.0 standing with any faction, they should know that most information for the game is provided out of game. It takes a while to drop to -5.0 standing unless you're involved in FW, so your imaginary trial account player simply doesn't need the warning.


-2.00 factions standings means you cannot do anything more then level 1 missions for that faction. And do you think there are not new players that basically stumble into FW?

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Iain Cariaba
#30 - 2015-12-19 09:49:49 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:

First off, a -2.0 standing with a faction is irrelevant. A -2.0 security status has penalties, but standins with a corp are meaningless at this stage.

Secondly, by the time a "new player" reaches -5.0 standing with any faction, they should know that most information for the game is provided out of game. It takes a while to drop to -5.0 standing unless you're involved in FW, so your imaginary trial account player simply doesn't need the warning.


-2.00 factions standings means you cannot do anything more then level 1 missions for that faction. And do you think there are not new players that basically stumble into FW?

Yes, and if you decide to go start doing missions for those factions that you have -2.0 standings with, guess what level missions you're going to start with anyway? Shocked

Sure there are new players that stumble into FW. There are also vets in FW that can provide information on what's going on.

And, once again, it's not like it's hard or time consuming to repair your standings with any given faction.
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