These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page12
 

Doppler shift

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#21 - 2015-12-16 20:10:37 UTC
Esrevid Nekkeg wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
What's the speed of sound in Space?

Depends on the medium, silly.
And more importantly, the temperature of said medium.


Not that temp isn't important but it's not particularly accurate to say "more importantly." The density of the medium is a far bigger factor.

Daemun of Khanid
Trevor Dalech
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#22 - 2015-12-17 03:18:58 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Esrevid Nekkeg wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
What's the speed of sound in Space?

Depends on the medium, silly.
And more importantly, the temperature of said medium.


Not that temp isn't important but it's not particularly accurate to say "more importantly." The density of the medium is a far bigger factor.


Actually, in an ideal gas the speed of sound is proportional to the square root of the temperature. It is the only factor.

You can of course use the ideal gas law to express the temperature in terms of pressure and density, but saying that density is in any sense a bigger factor is incorrect.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#23 - 2015-12-17 16:45:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Trevor Dalech wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Esrevid Nekkeg wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
What's the speed of sound in Space?

Depends on the medium, silly.
And more importantly, the temperature of said medium.


Not that temp isn't important but it's not particularly accurate to say "more importantly." The density of the medium is a far bigger factor.


Actually, in an ideal gas the speed of sound is proportional to the square root of the temperature. It is the only factor.

You can of course use the ideal gas law to express the temperature in terms of pressure and density, but saying that density is in any sense a bigger factor is incorrect.


Actually, you seem to be inferring that a "gas" is the medium in question. A fluid can just as easily be the medium. In which case the density of the medium is the more immediate factor in velocity. Only once the medium is determined can temperature as a factor be considered.

For example, the speed of sound in "air" is about 340 m/s. The speed of sound in water however is around 1500 m/s. Temperature change effects the speed in a medium but the amount of temperature required to make sound travel 1500 m/s in air would be extraordinary if even possible. The primary difference ofc between the 2 mediums being.... Density.

To call temp the only factor is blatently innacurate. For example, in the ocean sound speed varies based on 3 primary factors. Temperature, salinity and pressure. I worked in sonar for 10 years btw. Blink

Daemun of Khanid
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#24 - 2015-12-17 20:39:12 UTC
So, is this what it looks like when nerds argue? Intriguing.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Trevor Dalech
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#25 - 2015-12-18 04:51:24 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Trevor Dalech wrote:


Actually, in an ideal gas the speed of sound is proportional to the square root of the temperature. It is the only factor.

You can of course use the ideal gas law to express the temperature in terms of pressure and density, but saying that density is in any sense a bigger factor is incorrect.


Actually, you seem to be inferring that a "gas" is the medium in question. A fluid can just as easily be the medium. In which case the density of the medium is the more immediate factor in velocity. Only once the medium is determined can temperature as a factor be considered.

For example, the speed of sound in "air" is about 340 m/s. The speed of sound in water however is around 1500 m/s. Temperature change effects the speed in a medium but the amount of temperature required to make sound travel 1500 m/s in air would be extraordinary if even possible. The primary difference ofc between the 2 mediums being.... Density.

To call temp the only factor is blatently innacurate. For example, in the ocean sound speed varies based on 3 primary factors. Temperature, salinity and pressure. I worked in sonar for 10 years btw. Blink



Silly me. I forgot that in EVE, space is underwater. I'm rather curious what the salinity of 'space' would be in this case, so we can calculate the speed of sound in EVE.

In reality though, the interstellar medium is a gas.
Kira Kaliandra
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2015-12-18 05:02:15 UTC
CCP Logibro wrote:
Kira Kaliandra wrote:
Chopper Rollins wrote:
I was lead to understand that all sounds in space are information detected by the Jovian tech in the pod and presented in ways that make sense to humans. A large turret in action nearby makes a loud 'sound' then.
Any doppler effect on a sound source travelling more than about 4 km/s would probably make the sound disappear beyond a very narrow mid-range heard for a fraction of a second.
In any case, since i have the camera so far back that i can see the whole tactical overlay, i have to make all turret, engine, module, warp and gate sounds with my mouth.




Finally someone explained this!


Kinda. Your pod simulates sounds to help prevent you from going insane, and to help you with your situational awareness. Though to make it even more strange, you're not really hearing them with your ears. You're hearing all those noises with your brain. Basically, your ship plugged the output of a synthesizer into your head. You just hear them as sounds as your head is able to make better sense of them that way.



I was kinda sarcastic to be honest :D

But thanks for the explanation!
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#27 - 2015-12-18 06:33:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Trevor Dalech wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Trevor Dalech wrote:


Actually, in an ideal gas the speed of sound is proportional to the square root of the temperature. It is the only factor.

You can of course use the ideal gas law to express the temperature in terms of pressure and density, but saying that density is in any sense a bigger factor is incorrect.


Actually, you seem to be inferring that a "gas" is the medium in question. A fluid can just as easily be the medium. In which case the density of the medium is the more immediate factor in velocity. Only once the medium is determined can temperature as a factor be considered.

For example, the speed of sound in "air" is about 340 m/s. The speed of sound in water however is around 1500 m/s. Temperature change effects the speed in a medium but the amount of temperature required to make sound travel 1500 m/s in air would be extraordinary if even possible. The primary difference ofc between the 2 mediums being.... Density.

To call temp the only factor is blatently innacurate. For example, in the ocean sound speed varies based on 3 primary factors. Temperature, salinity and pressure. I worked in sonar for 10 years btw. Blink



Silly me. I forgot that in EVE, space is underwater. I'm rather curious what the salinity of 'space' would be in this case, so we can calculate the speed of sound in EVE.

In reality though, the interstellar medium is a gas.


In reality though, there is no interstellar "medium". Hence the "vacuum" of space. The gasses of nebula and various other loosely dispersed gasses aren't tightly packed enough to actually transmit sound (at least in any humanly detectable frequency range) As for salinity, that's really just a measure of the amount of particulate matter dispersed in the medium. So to a lesser degree than what's measurable in water the same principles apply to a gas and any suspended particulates therein. Blink

Edit to include (")medium(") I'm not saying that an "interstellar medium" does not exist but that it does not exist as a suitable transmission medium.

Daemun of Khanid
Cristl
#28 - 2015-12-18 12:54:53 UTC
I'm on a phone, but Google something like heliopause, heliosphere or termination shock if you like
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#29 - 2015-12-18 15:29:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Cristl wrote:
I'm on a phone, but Google something like heliopause, heliosphere or termination shock if you like


Not sure what an "immense magnetic bubble containing our solar system" has to do with space being a vacuum or sound in space...

("In all phases, the interstellar medium is extremely tenuous by terrestrial standards. In cool, dense regions of the ISM, matter is primarily in molecular form, and reaches number densities of 10 to the 6 molecules per cm3 (1 million molecules per cm3). In hot, diffuse regions of the ISM, matter is primarily ionized, and the density may be as low as 10 to the −4 ions per cm3. Compare this with a number density of roughly 10 to the 19 molecules per cm3 for air at sea level, and 10 to the 10 molecules per cm3 (10 billion molecules per cm3) for a laboratory high-vacuum chamber."

Just digest that. It's less dense than a laboratory high-vacuum chamber. Don't confuse the existence of a "medium" with something actually dense enough to conduct sound. The 2 definitions aren't really interchangeable. The interstellar medium is a unique environment and is not the same as a "transmission medium." The interstellar medium is like saying "hey, here's a hydrogen atom...and there's another one wayyyyyy over there." For the purposes of sound transmission it's still a vacuum.)

Daemun of Khanid
Hades Dark
US Space Force
Black Rose.
#30 - 2015-12-18 17:26:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Hades Dark
I have a question, If eve is ships underwater, and sound travels through water roughly 1482 m/s. If i go faster than 5335.2km/h does that mean I I won't hear anything?
Trevor Dalech
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#31 - 2015-12-18 23:28:59 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Cristl wrote:
I'm on a phone, but Google something like heliopause, heliosphere or termination shock if you like


Not sure what an "immense magnetic bubble containing our solar system" has to do with space being a vacuum or sound in space...

("In all phases, the interstellar medium is extremely tenuous by terrestrial standards. In cool, dense regions of the ISM, matter is primarily in molecular form, and reaches number densities of 10 to the 6 molecules per cm3 (1 million molecules per cm3). In hot, diffuse regions of the ISM, matter is primarily ionized, and the density may be as low as 10 to the −4 ions per cm3. Compare this with a number density of roughly 10 to the 19 molecules per cm3 for air at sea level, and 10 to the 10 molecules per cm3 (10 billion molecules per cm3) for a laboratory high-vacuum chamber."

Just digest that. It's less dense than a laboratory high-vacuum chamber. Don't confuse the existence of a "medium" with something actually dense enough to conduct sound. The 2 definitions aren't really interchangeable. The interstellar medium is a unique environment and is not the same as a "transmission medium." The interstellar medium is like saying "hey, here's a hydrogen atom...and there's another one wayyyyyy over there." For the purposes of sound transmission it's still a vacuum.)


Shockwaves form when an object (for example a cloud of plasma) moves faster than the speed of sound in the interstellar medium, and are an active research topic in astrophysics.
Celise Katelo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2015-12-19 00:16:51 UTC
You could perhaps use "magnetic fields" in the universe. To piggy back sound waves in space.

Hands out cookies & milk if you understand my thinking Blink

EVEBoard ...Just over 60million skill points, each skill was chosen for a reason. I closed my eyes & clicked another skill to train... "BINGO...!!!" ... "This time i got something usefull"
Previous page12