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Is anything _significantly_ faster than my Golem for L4 isk-making?

Author
The Larold
This is an anagram of itself.
#1 - 2015-12-15 20:27:58 UTC
Please keep in mind I'm asking this question mostly out of intellectual curiosity. I am not looking to maximize my ISK / hour on missions or get into nitty-gritty details on ship differences. I'm more interested in having the confidence to say, "I'm definitely up there" in terms of mission-running isk-making.

I've done a LOT of reading on L4s over the years. I'm training some gunnery and battleship skills to try out some other fun-sounding ships like the Mach, Nightmare, Rattlesnake, and Vindicator. (Maybe Paladin, Kronos, etc.) But mostly for fun.

I'm curious about this:

Assuming maxed or very high skilled missile / core / ship skills, is a Golem pilot keeping up with most of the very-high-earners for mission runners? I can kill anything quickly out to 90km or so in bastion, 56+ while boating to gates. I can loot / salvage 70-80% of the wrecks by the time the gates are unlocked.

I'm curious if there is a particular combination of ship + approach (where approach is one of blitz, cherry-pick, or full clear) that, in the long run, is going to show way more profit than the Golem. I'm not talking a couple million an hour. I'm talking like 10-20 million. It feels like I've not much room for improvement for L4 isk-earning, but I wanted to double-check with my more experienced fellow capsuleers.

If I was on a quest to continually improve my high-sec ISK-making, which I'm not, it almost seems like Incursions would be the next step up. Is my gut generally correct on that?




Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#2 - 2015-12-15 20:39:37 UTC
The Larold wrote:
Please keep in mind I'm asking this question mostly out of intellectual curiosity. I am not looking to maximize my ISK / hour on missions or get into nitty-gritty details on ship differences. I'm more interested in having the confidence to say, "I'm definitely up there" in terms of mission-running isk-making.

I've done a LOT of reading on L4s over the years. I'm training some gunnery and battleship skills to try out some other fun-sounding ships like the Mach, Nightmare, Rattlesnake, and Vindicator. (Maybe Paladin, Kronos, etc.) But mostly for fun.

I'm curious about this:

Assuming maxed or very high skilled missile / core / ship skills, is a Golem pilot keeping up with most of the very-high-earners for mission runners? I can kill anything quickly out to 90km or so in bastion, 56+ while boating to gates. I can loot / salvage 70-80% of the wrecks by the time the gates are unlocked.

I'm curious if there is a particular combination of ship + approach (where approach is one of blitz, cherry-pick, or full clear) that, in the long run, is going to show way more profit than the Golem. I'm not talking a couple million an hour. I'm talking like 10-20 million. It feels like I've not much room for improvement for L4 isk-earning, but I wanted to double-check with my more experienced fellow capsuleers.

If I was on a quest to continually improve my high-sec ISK-making, which I'm not, it almost seems like Incursions would be the next step up. Is my gut generally correct on that?






I feel the Vargur is a bit faster, I dont know about 10-20 mil faster. The Macherial/Noctis used to be faster IMHO, haven't run a Mach since the latest 'updates'. The reason being I run an MJD, MWD, and nanofibers. Its quick at moving and killing.

I top out at about 95 mil an hour in total asset gain on the best missions for total completion, Gone Berserk and Dread Pirate (not counting anti-empire missions). Get about 50 mil an hour for missions like Serpentis Extravaganza and Vengeance.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it

Garrett Osinov
Doomheim
#3 - 2015-12-15 21:38:30 UTC
If you are talking about isk / hour, then you don't need a Golem. You need to blitz missions and run burners. This way your income will be several times higher, then in Golem.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#4 - 2015-12-15 21:39:55 UTC
I don't think there is a best ship. Just best ship for playstyle. The reason I say this is because each type of weapon has it's drawbacks, and certain ships/weapon systems are best against certain NPC rats.

Turret Ships
Turret damage is instant. Hybrid ships can get the highest DPS, but you sacrifice range because you have to use blasters to get that high-end DPS. They also consume cap. Projectiles also don't use cap, but since most of the time you will be engaging in falloff, you won't get best DPS. Projectiles can also partially choose for a specific damage type. Lasers get very good range, but use cap and their tracking sucks; however, their damage is only against EM and Thermal. Lasers can also switch ammo types instantly. Turret ships require some manual piloting to be very effective.

Missile Ships
Rattlesnake can get high DPS too, but your DPS is almost evenly split between missiles and drones; so you have to manage both. Missile ships can get consistent damage, but their method of application means speed and sig radius lowers DPS. They can also select damage against specific resists, have good range, and don't use cap. Missiles don't apply damage instantly, you have to wait for the missiles to reach their target.

EWAR pretty much affects all ships now, unless you are in a Marauder using a bastion mod. Missile and turret range can now both be reduced by tracking/missile disruption, which means even FoF missiles will have their range reduced if you are affected by them. Sensor Damps and ECM equally suck in my opinion. Neuts will pretty much kill any active tank ship without a cap booster, even Marauders.

If I had to select a best ship, I'd go with the Paladin.
The Larold
This is an anagram of itself.
#5 - 2015-12-15 22:07:46 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
The Larold wrote:
Please keep in mind I'm asking this question mostly out of intellectual curiosity. I am not looking to maximize my ISK / hour on missions or get into nitty-gritty details on ship differences. I'm more interested in having the confidence to say, "I'm definitely up there" in terms of mission-running isk-making.

I've done a LOT of reading on L4s over the years. I'm training some gunnery and battleship skills to try out some other fun-sounding ships like the Mach, Nightmare, Rattlesnake, and Vindicator. (Maybe Paladin, Kronos, etc.) But mostly for fun.

I'm curious about this:

Assuming maxed or very high skilled missile / core / ship skills, is a Golem pilot keeping up with most of the very-high-earners for mission runners? I can kill anything quickly out to 90km or so in bastion, 56+ while boating to gates. I can loot / salvage 70-80% of the wrecks by the time the gates are unlocked.

I'm curious if there is a particular combination of ship + approach (where approach is one of blitz, cherry-pick, or full clear) that, in the long run, is going to show way more profit than the Golem. I'm not talking a couple million an hour. I'm talking like 10-20 million. It feels like I've not much room for improvement for L4 isk-earning, but I wanted to double-check with my more experienced fellow capsuleers.

If I was on a quest to continually improve my high-sec ISK-making, which I'm not, it almost seems like Incursions would be the next step up. Is my gut generally correct on that?






I feel the Vargur is a bit faster, I dont know about 10-20 mil faster. The Macherial/Noctis used to be faster IMHO, haven't run a Mach since the latest 'updates'. The reason being I run an MJD, MWD, and nanofibers. Its quick at moving and killing.

I top out at about 95 mil an hour in total asset gain on the best missions for total completion, Gone Berserk and Dread Pirate (not counting anti-empire missions). Get about 50 mil an hour for missions like Serpentis Extravaganza and Vengeance.


Thanks for the info. Out of curiosity, do you farm these missions each day, or do you complete them and turn them in the first time you get them?
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#6 - 2015-12-15 22:55:42 UTC
Depending on how much you're making at the moment, blitzing + burners should net you 2 to 3 TIMES as much. You can even choose between a Mach or a Barghest.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

The Larold
This is an anagram of itself.
#7 - 2015-12-15 22:59:02 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Depending on how much you're making at the moment, blitzing + burners should net you 2 to 3 TIMES as much. You can even choose between a Mach or a Barghest.


Are burners those optional frigate-only missions where you need really good skills and weapons? I don't think my skillset is capable of dealing with said missions yet...
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#8 - 2015-12-15 23:19:24 UTC
The Larold wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Depending on how much you're making at the moment, blitzing + burners should net you 2 to 3 TIMES as much. You can even choose between a Mach or a Barghest.


Are burners those optional frigate-only missions where you need really good skills and weapons? I don't think my skillset is capable of dealing with said missions yet...

Check out the link in my sig for more info and builds. It's frigs and cruisers. if your missile skills are good then the team burners should be a good place to start.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2015-12-15 23:23:27 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:


Missile Ships
Rattlesnake can get high DPS too, but your DPS is almost evenly split between missiles and drones; so you have to manage both.



The stupidly high 1800 DPS figures you see bandied around for the rattler are Torp/Gecko figures. Damage application issues with a torp/gecko rattler probably halve that :D

A more conventional cruise/sentinel rattler puts out more like 1400-1500 DPS and if you switch the cruise to a new ship each time a target gets low and finish the target off with sentinels you can apply a fair chunk of that. A lot of management though, a busy cockpit as pilots say.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#10 - 2015-12-15 23:43:19 UTC
Warp speed mach is great. High dps, reasonable damage selection, alright projection, super fast and agile.

cherry picking + blitzing seems to be the highest consistent return available.

the golem is pretty nice, but I don't really like missile mechanics. I've been playing around with a barghest a bit lately and that is pretty fun. Missile velocity bonus helps out with my biggest annoyance with missiles of launching another volley while the current volley is the kill volley.

If you are going to full clear I don't know that there will be a huge difference between the golem and mach. A few +/- for each and I have no idea where they net. For blitzing I'd take the mach almost every single time, although there are a few cases where the MJD cooldown is very nice to have on marauders.

moving on to incursions is one way to up income, or train into smaller ships and get into burner missions.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Altair Taurus
#11 - 2015-12-16 00:13:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Altair Taurus
I have Rattlesnake (MJD+sentry+cruises) dealing 1300 dps at 100 km range. I suppose it kills rats faster than Golem however it's true I have to micromanage a bit. Anyway sentries kill frigs very fast and later I think in most situations 1-3 salvos of Fury CM with fire support of sentries can destroy NPC battleship quickly. Now I understood "delayed missile damage" quite well so I can stop firing CMs at current target and start shelling next one reasonably well (just in time!) which means flexible and smooth elimination of rats.

Marauders have an edge in capability of salvaging during mission (I must return in Noctis) and in EWAR immunity (yet I did not experience much jamming in Rattlesnake, also sentries are nice against Guristas). Of course I put aside blitzing and AFK-ing here.

I have also maxed-out Machariel but I have not run many level 4 missions in Mach so far simply because I have no access to Minmatar level 4 agents yet and Mach shines primarily against Angels!

I was considering Marauders a few months ago but finally I decided it's not worth my training time. I chose to train T2 weapon systems for my pirate battleships instead.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#12 - 2015-12-16 03:04:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
The Larold wrote:
I'm curious if there is a particular combination of ship + approach (where approach is one of blitz, cherry-pick, or full clear) that, in the long run, is going to show way more profit than the Golem. I'm not talking a couple million an hour. I'm talking like 10-20 million. It feels like I've not much room for improvement for L4 isk-earning, but I wanted to double-check with my more experienced fellow capsuleers.

If I was on a quest to continually improve my high-sec ISK-making, which I'm not, it almost seems like Incursions would be the next step up. Is my gut generally correct on that?

This is a great question, and the answer really depends on your playing style. There are a few methods to running Lv4s:

1. Shoot everything, minimal salvage. This is where you're primarily going after the bounties and LP and salvage as a secondary consideration. You'll loot the implants from Scarlet, Zazz, Damsel and Angels.
2. Shoot and loot everything. This is somewhat self-explanatory, although there are a number of missions where salvaging is actually counter-productive (anything with Guristas, for example). This is where your Marauder comes in.
3. Blitz. This is where you run Lv4s with the intention of completing the mission objectives only - with the focus on LP. An enhanced version of this that focuses on Burners is what most players now do (see the guide from Anize Oramara).

If your play style focuses on non-Burner missions, you'll probably find that all three methods are reasonably close in terms of ISK/hour. You can improve your overall ISK potential by adopting all three play styles when applicable (as opposed to just focusing on one):

• You blitz the missions that you can to basically crank through missions to earn towards Storyline missions. Anything that needs Kernite is an instant 20m ISK payday, and anything against one of the opposing Empire Factions is easily a 50-75m bonus with salvage and tags.
• You shoot everything where you can get excellent bounties and typically don't loot (these are missions like Assault or the Extravaganzas). You loot implants (Scarlet, Zazmatazz, Damsel) and missions where there's good salvage (Beserk).
• You run the occasional Burner mission that gives you a quick ISK/LP payout. I like the Team Burner ones because you can run these with a universal Garmur, so your investment is <100m ISK.
• You run the missions that tank your standings with opposing Empires (Enemies), because these can easily make you 200-250m ISK by completing the whole series.

With respect to your question about the Golem, I've found that it's the best all-around Marauder. Some players prefer the Vargur but honestly you can't go wrong either way. If you're running in Amarr space the Paladin is probably your best bet. Last on the list is the Kronos. The Rattlesnake has a lot of potential DPS (emphasis on potential). Without the right fit and close to V skills, you'll be lucky to get half that. You can run it with torpedoes and Geckos and get 1800 DPS on paper, but you'll spend half the mission just trying to get within range of targets. Once you drop down to Sentries and cruise missiles, you'll be just over 1300-1400 DPS - and to get decent damage application you're going to sacrifice a lot of things like how quickly you can get between and around missions.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2015-12-16 03:05:41 UTC
Altair Taurus wrote:


I have also maxed-out Machariel but I have not run many level 4 missions in Mach so far simply because I have no access to Minmatar level 4 agents yet and Mach shines primarily against Angels!



SOE Lanngisi drops a lot of Angels.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#14 - 2015-12-16 03:19:37 UTC
angels are nice because you can effectively use hail in a mach. but I find the mach to be good vs most other npcs with phased plasma (thermal) or EMP (EM). when you do 1300 dps it doesn't really matter that you are hitting slightly off on damage type.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#15 - 2015-12-16 04:34:46 UTC
SO 180-270 mil an hour doing burners?

I wont even consider anything less than video evidence at this point.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it

Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#16 - 2015-12-16 04:53:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Cipher Jones wrote:
SO 180-270 mil an hour doing burners?

I wont even consider anything less than video evidence at this point.

You're a couple months behind. I actually do have 3h of recorded footage where I get my normal 250mill/h but I just can't afford to upload it unfortunately (3rd world internet yey). That said here is the original thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=451140&find=unread . I can provide you the how in the guide and the figures as proof in that thread but weather or not people believe me is no longer important as it's now accepted as fact and the basis for many nerf hi-sec threads..

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2015-12-16 05:54:50 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
SO 180-270 mil an hour doing burners?

I wont even consider anything less than video evidence at this point.


By people with high SP characters and lot of SP in frigate skills that keep a batch of blinged out special ships each used for one specific burner type, run almost all the burner versions and reject pretty much everything except burners and trash their agent standing down to almost neg two in the process.

Can people achieve that figure ? Certainly.

Do many people have the skills/ISK/motivation ? No not really. Most people are content to skill up and fit ships for a few burners to add a bit of an isk boost and leave it at that.

Needless to say certain troll type entities are using the fact that a handful of people (a few hundred players at max maybe far less than that) can and occasionally do get that ISK to push for a nerfing/removal of all missions for all players in hisec.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#18 - 2015-12-16 06:50:56 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
The Larold wrote:
I'm curious if there is a particular combination of ship + approach (where approach is one of blitz, cherry-pick, or full clear) that, in the long run, is going to show way more profit than the Golem. I'm not talking a couple million an hour. I'm talking like 10-20 million. It feels like I've not much room for improvement for L4 isk-earning, but I wanted to double-check with my more experienced fellow capsuleers.

If I was on a quest to continually improve my high-sec ISK-making, which I'm not, it almost seems like Incursions would be the next step up. Is my gut generally correct on that?

This is a great question, and the answer really depends on your playing style. There are a few methods to running Lv4s:

1. Shoot everything, minimal salvage. This is where you're primarily going after the bounties and LP and salvage as a secondary consideration. You'll loot the implants from Scarlet, Zazz, Damsel and Angels.
2. Shoot and loot everything. This is somewhat self-explanatory, although there are a number of missions where salvaging is actually counter-productive (anything with Guristas, for example). This is where your Marauder comes in.
3. Blitz. This is where you run Lv4s with the intention of completing the mission objectives only - with the focus on LP. An enhanced version of this that focuses on Burners is what most players now do (see the guide from Anize Oramara).

If your play style focuses on non-Burner missions, you'll probably find that all three methods are reasonably close in terms of ISK/hour. You can improve your overall ISK potential by adopting all three play styles when applicable (as opposed to just focusing on one):

• You blitz the missions that you can to basically crank through missions to earn towards Storyline missions. Anything that needs Kernite is an instant 20m ISK payday, and anything against one of the opposing Empire Factions is easily a 50-75m bonus with salvage and tags.
• You shoot everything where you can get excellent bounties and typically don't loot (these are missions like Assault or the Extravaganzas). You loot implants (Scarlet, Zazmatazz, Damsel) and missions where there's good salvage (Beserk).
• You run the occasional Burner mission that gives you a quick ISK/LP payout. I like the Team Burner ones because you can run these with a universal Garmur, so your investment is <100m ISK.
• You run the missions that tank your standings with opposing Empires (Enemies), because these can easily make you 200-250m ISK by completing the whole series.

With respect to your question about the Golem, I've found that it's the best all-around Marauder. Some players prefer the Vargur but honestly you can't go wrong either way. If you're running in Amarr space the Paladin is probably your best bet. Last on the list is the Kronos. The Rattlesnake has a lot of potential DPS (emphasis on potential). Without the right fit and close to V skills, you'll be lucky to get half that. You can run it with torpedoes and Geckos and get 1800 DPS on paper, but you'll spend half the mission just trying to get within range of targets. Once you drop down to Sentries and cruise missiles, you'll be just over 1300-1400 DPS - and to get decent damage application you're going to sacrifice a lot of things like how quickly you can get between and around missions.


What implants you're talking about in Zazzmatazz and Damsel. The ones I've found are usually worthless so I just skip them. And the bounties in Angels Extrava aren't worth the trouble due to the time it takes you to complete the missions.

The Bigpuns
United Standings Improvement Agency
#19 - 2015-12-16 08:09:16 UTC
Zor drops an implant, sometimes it's a hyperlink worth around 40 mil last time I checked (which was months ago now)
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#20 - 2015-12-16 09:15:38 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
And the bounties in Angels Extrava aren't worth the trouble due to the time it takes you to complete the missions.



Friend of mine still smokes that op in about 20-22 minutes in a Varg. Not the best, but it's nearly 30M in about a third of an hour. That's not bad.

One thing to note too is that neither she nor I get missions from agents that are much better (maybe Enemies Abound, Gone Berzerk, Scarlet). I've said it before and I'll repeat it here, there are tons of L4's I've never in my nearly six years in Eve ever seen offered even once, but I could run each mission in Enemies Abound from start to finish step by literal step while blind folded by now. Ask the Gallente Navy, they and the Minmatar have hated my -10 standing guts for half a decade now.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

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