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Why do off grid links exist?

Author
Fu Qjoo
Externa Holdings
#281 - 2015-12-15 18:56:32 UTC
Squatdog wrote:
Fu Qjoo wrote:
Squatdog wrote:
DELICIOUS TEARS.



We can't see them, can you please take off your googles?


Post on your main.


I am the Chief Forum Officer of my corp. Identifying my corpmates and the black sheep in the family of our CEO does not require too much intelligence.

Wait, you are in State Protectorate? Sorry.
Switch Savage
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2015-12-15 21:08:24 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Switch Savage wrote:
Well hey skirmish links have to be on grid after this change so scram/point range will drop for most gangs. But we will likely just see HICs in all kiting gangs (Yay 37.5km scram :D).


That's the minimum scram range I believe.


Huh? Its 37.5km from the HICs scripted scram which links do not effect so that is max. T1 variant of the module is less but cannot remember the number off the top of my head.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#283 - 2015-12-15 21:36:33 UTC
Switch Savage wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Switch Savage wrote:
Well hey skirmish links have to be on grid after this change so scram/point range will drop for most gangs. But we will likely just see HICs in all kiting gangs (Yay 37.5km scram :D).


That's the minimum scram range I believe.


Huh? Its 37.5km from the HICs scripted scram which links do not effect so that is max. T1 variant of the module is less but cannot remember the number off the top of my head.


I think it's right at 30km with level 5 heavy dictor.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#284 - 2015-12-15 21:41:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Templar Dane
Switch Savage wrote:
Quite happy links will be removed really. It makes solo vs fleet a bit harder in some heavy active tank brawl fits but I can and will adapt. Plus i am having a riot welping all my active tank fits that require links as Crosi saw first hand the other day (gf btw).

A lot of people seem to think it will magically balance things out and let them win more fights. Trust me on this one you will still very likely lose to all the same people.


Links aren't being removed. If the command destroyers are any indication, CCP wants to add more link ships to the game before they make them on-grid only.

You know, to make sure the blobs have links while the individuals and small gangs won't.

The blobs will just have a few people get into link capable ships.

The 'losers' that solo with links, will just use ecm/logi alts. Then the people who complained about offgrid links will complain about cloaks, and ecm, and cheap logi, and multiboxing.
ALUCARD 1208
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#285 - 2015-12-15 23:14:57 UTC
you forgot bout implants
Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#286 - 2015-12-16 02:42:19 UTC
Fu Qjoo wrote:
Squatdog wrote:
Fu Qjoo wrote:
Squatdog wrote:
DELICIOUS TEARS.



We can't see them, can you please take off your googles?


Post on your main.


I am the Chief Forum Officer of my corp. Identifying my corpmates and the black sheep in the family of our CEO does not require too much intelligence.

Wait, you are in State Protectorate? Sorry.


You are a cyno alt with 27 losses and no kills.

Post on your main.
Pestilen Ratte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#287 - 2015-12-16 03:37:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Pestilen Ratte
I think we all need to discuss one specific issue more closely.

Regardless of whether links are a "good" or "bad" mechanic, which is inherently subjective, what can we all agree for certain about links?

I believe there is no question that links disguise the strength of enemy ships. Put another way, they create uncertainty about the enemy strength, and this is true whether there is one enemy or a whole fleet.

So what?

So, one of the big "time investment" barriers to engaging the enemy is determining their strength. This is why we keep an eye on local spikes. This is why we use d-scan. This is why we use TS3. We all know that we need to pick our fights carefully. And we know we need to keep an eye out for changes in the balance of power.

It is not contentious to say that the harder it is to determine enemy strength, the more time is required before deciding whether to engage.

Depending on how busy you are in real life, and how much you like "the hunt" or "the fight" as game play styles, the time invested in order to get a fight is a real problem.

This has been my greatest frustration with links. You log on, you fit a ship, your corp buddies are also online. Great! Now you can go out looking for small gang PVP. Get some fights.

Except, you can't. Not really.

Because of the ridiculous power of off grid boosts, the range of enemy strength that can destroy a small gang goes from a large blob to one ship.

Without links, you can say with certainty whether the ships in system can offer a fair fight. You can look for such a system, and look to get roughly balanced fights.

With links, you just never know for certain whether you are going to pick a fight you can't win.

Obviously this is not true for larger fleets. Once you have 30 ships and they only have 20, links are not an issue because you can use them yourself or otherwise overpower them with numbers.

But for solo and small gang PVP, links make even one enemy ship invulnerable. You cannot know, for certain, if you are picking a fair fight.

That makes Eve a bad investment of time, and it undermines the idea that Eve is even about fighting.

Maybe PVP in Eve is only supposed to be for massive fleets and risk averse gate campers and OGB gimps.

Maybe that is how you attract the sort of people who play Eve (and who pay for alts).

But it isn't how you appeal to people who want to fight in space ships.

Off grid boosters are not just a treacherous mechanic. They are also a statement of how CCP see and value their player base, and indeed how they see the scope and competencies of their own creation.

If links don't get massively reconfigured to address the small gang PVP concerns, nobody at CCP even believes Eve should be about space ship combat.

It is all just meant to be a chat room with space backgrounds, a facebook for chatty start wars fans.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#288 - 2015-12-16 07:37:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Pestilen Ratte wrote:
My blob keeps losing to a smaller number of boosted players. Instead of taking advantage of force multipliers, asymmetric balance, hard counters, logistics and many other options available i would lke to keep doing the same thing but win if i had the skill to bring more people.


People being able to correctly assess an opponents capabilities is just as often a barrier to content.

Also, boosts dont make anyone invulnerable. They are not god mode. Lets lay off the emotionally tinged language.
Switch Savage
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#289 - 2015-12-16 10:00:15 UTC
Pestilen Ratte wrote:
I think we all need to discuss one specific issue more closely.

Regardless of whether links are a "good" or "bad" mechanic, which is inherently subjective, what can we all agree for certain about links?

I believe there is no question that links disguise the strength of enemy ships. Put another way, they create uncertainty about the enemy strength, and this is true whether there is one enemy or a whole fleet.

So what?

So, one of the big "time investment" barriers to engaging the enemy is determining their strength. This is why we keep an eye on local spikes. This is why we use d-scan. This is why we use TS3. We all know that we need to pick our fights carefully. And we know we need to keep an eye out for changes in the balance of power.

It is not contentious to say that the harder it is to determine enemy strength, the more time is required before deciding whether to engage.

Depending on how busy you are in real life, and how much you like "the hunt" or "the fight" as game play styles, the time invested in order to get a fight is a real problem.

This has been my greatest frustration with links. You log on, you fit a ship, your corp buddies are also online. Great! Now you can go out looking for small gang PVP. Get some fights.

Except, you can't. Not really.

Because of the ridiculous power of off grid boosts, the range of enemy strength that can destroy a small gang goes from a large blob to one ship.

Without links, you can say with certainty whether the ships in system can offer a fair fight. You can look for such a system, and look to get roughly balanced fights.

With links, you just never know for certain whether you are going to pick a fight you can't win.

Obviously this is not true for larger fleets. Once you have 30 ships and they only have 20, links are not an issue because you can use them yourself or otherwise overpower them with numbers.

But for solo and small gang PVP, links make even one enemy ship invulnerable. You cannot know, for certain, if you are picking a fair fight.

That makes Eve a bad investment of time, and it undermines the idea that Eve is even about fighting.

Maybe PVP in Eve is only supposed to be for massive fleets and risk averse gate campers and OGB gimps.

Maybe that is how you attract the sort of people who play Eve (and who pay for alts).

But it isn't how you appeal to people who want to fight in space ships.

Off grid boosters are not just a treacherous mechanic. They are also a statement of how CCP see and value their player base, and indeed how they see the scope and competencies of their own creation.

If links don't get massively reconfigured to address the small gang PVP concerns, nobody at CCP even believes Eve should be about space ship combat.

It is all just meant to be a chat room with space backgrounds, a facebook for chatty start wars fans.


If the availability of links currently prevents you from going out and getting kills you will simply find something else to complain about after. Solo/Small gang players know they are always up against the odds that is the fun of it. We do not expect nor request fair fights you do what you can against the many and try to snatch kills against impossible odds.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#290 - 2015-12-16 20:03:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
For example, One of my last kills might look like a pathetic goon griffin. What the killboard doesnt tell you is i stole that from under a fleet of 30 other goons with frig logi and algos and assorted tackle. Without boosts, most kites wont be able to go near an algos for long let alone 20 of them.

Their intention was to sit on gates using that remosebo griffin to get l33t pvp on gates while running from a similar sized and specced gallente gang. Without it their ability to catch things was significantly reduced. You are welcome black rise.
Tung Yoggi
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
#291 - 2015-12-16 20:43:27 UTC
Nerfing links will seriously affect the playstyle of some people, it will target blindly the annoying lamers as well as the fantastic solo samurais. It will hurt people, sure.

However, I believe it is needed right now (because of reasons). And apparently, it is going to happen at some point, so the devs are deeply convinced by the fact the whole mechanic is dumb. They're convinced to the point that they know, that somehow, it will hit Johnny McGarmur, but more importantly, Kevin McOrthrus is going to think about cancelling his alt account, and they might certainly lose money in the process. That must mean that at some point, they truly believe they have perfectly good reasons to financially shoot themselves in the foot.

I therefore expect them to try and build a fun mechanic around new links™ that will make this balancing pass no just a plain nerf, but some way for them to create interest in order to either convince their customers not to cancel their alt accounts, or retain more people into the game by giving them a reason to train for, and play with this amazing new feature.

Let's only hope !
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#292 - 2015-12-16 20:54:51 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
I like my scram range active armor tanking. Without links, doing that against multiple opponents would be suicide every time.....rather than just suicide every other time. Big smile

With the way the game has changed the last few years, active armor tanking has taken a decidedly big nosedive in performance.

- Links were nerfed
- ASBs were introduced which make armor much less attractive
- Resist bonuses on hulls were nerfed
- Armor rep amount bonuses went from 10% per level to 7.5%
- The dps on practically everything got buffed

The last one is the big one. Weapon damage increased, fitting requirements were reduced, ships got increased fittings.......certain ships got application bonuses, some got drones or additional drones....some cruisers got an additional mid that's often another web for better application......we have new launchers specialized in burst dps....

Ships do more damage and apply it better than they did just a few years ago. At the same time the maximum dps that can be tanked has gone down.

A lot of people don't like links, but they make the impossible possible.

I'm a dirty rotten link user. I fight in scram range with a beefy armor tank, that's my style. I hide the links, and then sit a plex in a non-meta ship and wait for the meta tryhards to show up. I call it "fishing".

Waiting in a plex in a decloaked astero, killing the daredevil that comes in and his backup.........good times.

If a solo pilot comes in, and then no backup arrives I'M SHOCKED. It may not be a fair fight because of the links, but I'm usually in something they think they can take. If I had been in a worm or something, I probably wouldn't get as many customers because who on earth is going to go in on X badass ship that's already setup in the plex?

Over the years I've seen a lot of butthurt aimed in my direction. "you only won because of the links"

Yeah well I wouldn't have fought 3 thrashers in a vengeance without them. I wouldn't have fought a dramiel in a punisher. I wouldn't have fought 5 AFs in an astero. I wouldn't have fought a cynabal in a punisher.

I'd have warped out of the plex when I saw that coming my way and there would have been zero content for anybody. You can't fight outnumbered and outshipped like that in scram range......unless you have links. Solo against many, the only option would be kiting.

It's not fair that our gang couldn't kill the linked guy, boohoo. If this were a game where things like that weren't possible, where the only thing that matters is how many you brought and what they were in......it would be a much duller game.

The fact that links allow you to brawl outnumbered is not a good thing. Links also make kiting ships better, so that kind of makes your whole point moot.

Kiting is better because you can strategically reposition your ship at will to avoid getting dog piled, while still doing damage from long range.

Brawling is worse because it is much easier to get blobbed when you recklessly charge into scram range.

Links do not balance this dichotomy, they are overpowered no matter which playstyle you choose.

CCP could buff scram range fighting if they really want to but I don't know if anyone thinks that is a good idea. Ultimately, kiting is rightfully the superior strategy.

As Ragged Starkiller pointed out, there are exceptions to the rule (as always). Brawling works really well, IF you stick to fighting on gates, stations or in plexes, because the brawling ship can use these mechanics to his advantage.

But in open space the kiting ship is king.

The fact is you do not need links to successfully fight outnumbered or outshipped. Just because links make it easier for you does not make them a good game mechanic.
Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
Pen Is Out
#293 - 2015-12-16 23:03:12 UTC
George Gouillot wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Burtakus wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
If your only solution is to bring your own, then you are ignoring a few other solutions.


The other "counters" to links require greater input and skill on the part of the player. They aren't afk-able, and actually killing the links ship requires more than 1 additional account. So yes, the most efficient solution by far is to bring your own, rather than dedicating multiple players/accounts towards hunting them which usually just results in the link abuser running away.


Honestly you are whining more than just about anyone I know. If you are willing to back up that whine I have a proposal.

Ten arranged 1 v 1 fights between you and me. You pick the hull classes you want to fight with. I will place 1 billion isk on it that I win 7 or more of our fights.

My only ground rules are:
1) no links and we must be in in the same fleet with just us two
2) we use a Gall Mill controlled station system so you can reship
3) T2 and meta fittings only...no faction, ded, or officer
4) no implants because I will pod you
5) BS hulls and down
6) we each must front the 1 billion to be held by a 3rd party before the first fight begins
7) spectators welcome as long as they don't interfere....interference means the fight is voided and does not count toward the 10


What say you?

Burt


I'll take your challenge. I'm not putting a billion ISK on it. If you want to prove something you can take it or leave it.

Our relative skill at PvP has nothing to do with the fact that OGB is broken as all hell. It's the most egregious form of pay to win in the game and it's high time it was done away with.


I will pay the 1 bln for you if you lose. You can keep the prize if you win.
As its my ISK on the line, I will agree upon 3rd party with Burt.

Only thing I am asking is to be able to take part as a visitor. What say you?



Honorabru 1v1's? The more the merrier. I'm sold. Details can be communicated here or via evemail or ingame chat. I'd personally prefer T1/navy frigs, destroyers (T1) or T1 cruisers.
Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
Pen Is Out
#294 - 2015-12-16 23:14:14 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
I like my scram range active armor tanking. Without links, doing that against multiple opponents would be suicide every time.....rather than just suicide every other time. Big smile

With the way the game has changed the last few years, active armor tanking has taken a decidedly big nosedive in performance.

- Links were nerfed
- ASBs were introduced which make armor much less attractive
- Resist bonuses on hulls were nerfed
- Armor rep amount bonuses went from 10% per level to 7.5%
- The dps on practically everything got buffed

The last one is the big one. Weapon damage increased, fitting requirements were reduced, ships got increased fittings.......certain ships got application bonuses, some got drones or additional drones....some cruisers got an additional mid that's often another web for better application......we have new launchers specialized in burst dps....

Ships do more damage and apply it better than they did just a few years ago. At the same time the maximum dps that can be tanked has gone down.

A lot of people don't like links, but they make the impossible possible.

I'm a dirty rotten link user. I fight in scram range with a beefy armor tank, that's my style. I hide the links, and then sit a plex in a non-meta ship and wait for the meta tryhards to show up. I call it "fishing".

Waiting in a plex in a decloaked astero, killing the daredevil that comes in and his backup.........good times.

If a solo pilot comes in, and then no backup arrives I'M SHOCKED. It may not be a fair fight because of the links, but I'm usually in something they think they can take. If I had been in a worm or something, I probably wouldn't get as many customers because who on earth is going to go in on X badass ship that's already setup in the plex?

Over the years I've seen a lot of butthurt aimed in my direction. "you only won because of the links"

Yeah well I wouldn't have fought 3 thrashers in a vengeance without them. I wouldn't have fought a dramiel in a punisher. I wouldn't have fought 5 AFs in an astero. I wouldn't have fought a cynabal in a punisher.

I'd have warped out of the plex when I saw that coming my way and there would have been zero content for anybody. You can't fight outnumbered and outshipped like that in scram range......unless you have links. Solo against many, the only option would be kiting.

It's not fair that our gang couldn't kill the linked guy, boohoo. If this were a game where things like that weren't possible, where the only thing that matters is how many you brought and what they were in......it would be a much duller game.


Access to this kind of gameplay should not be defined by how many subs you are willing to pay.

Also, linked armor brawling was never really game-breaking in the way that uncatchable kite setups are.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#295 - 2015-12-17 00:39:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Access to supercap gameplay should not be defined by how many subs you have.

Access to freighter gameplay should not be defined by how many subs you have.

Access to blackops gameplay should not be defined by how many subs you have.

Access to ... etc

The advantages of alts in eve are diverse and widely accepted. there is no legitimate 'alts to win' argument since if you have an objection to alts you really are playing the wrong game.

Sorry boosters in particular spoil your ability to hunt russian farmer alts in a punisher in peace or that occasionally one might steal a kill from your blob.
Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
Pen Is Out
#296 - 2015-12-17 02:37:03 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Access to supercap gameplay should not be defined by how many subs you have.

Access to freighter gameplay should not be defined by how many subs you have.

Access to blackops gameplay should not be defined by how many subs you have.

Access to ... etc

The advantages of alts in eve are diverse and widely accepted. there is no legitimate 'alts to win' argument since if you have an objection to alts you really are playing the wrong game.

Sorry boosters in particular spoil your ability to hunt russian farmer alts in a punisher in peace or that occasionally one might steal a kill from your blob.


We've already been over why links are fundamentally different from other forms of alt supporting roles.

And why would I hunt farmers in a punisher when CCP has given us the Navy Maulus which is designed specifically to counter stabs?

I actually solo pvp in reasonable, engageable ships rather than rely on afk-alt-buffed cancer to generate easy killmails. I would LOVE to see you solo without links in something not a garmur.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#297 - 2015-12-17 02:58:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Saying that boosts give a combat advantage isnt addressing the point. Cyno alts and freighters also give a combat advantage. No ships = no combat. Which is a direct advantage. Put me in a system with someone who doenst have the ability to bring 130 reships in within 5 minutes and im pretty sure i know how thats going to end.

As for your claim to flying engagable ships? Garmur, Orthrus, Geddon and Strateos feature highly on your ship usage while beyond that its blobbing people in gangs mostly consisting of svipuls and phantasms lol. Along with the aforementioned punisher combat which of course all eve should be balanced towards.

Dont get me wrong, i understand that it is very hard for some people to introspect. Its easy to remember when you have been hard done by, and even easier to forget when you do the same as what you constantly and unendingly complain about.
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association
Two Maidens One Chalice
#298 - 2015-12-17 09:41:41 UTC
Switch Savage wrote:
Well hey skirmish links have to be on grid after this change so scram/point range will drop for most gangs. But we will likely just see HICs in all kiting gangs (Yay 37.5km scram :D).


In Rakapas, the jump gates to Reisato and to Iwisoda are on the same grid. I doubt this is the only occurance.

This allows for the links to be "safe" to an exit that is a warp away whilst still applying the bonus. I am pretty sure the new "on grid links" are going to be gamed effectively just as they have before.

At least Command destroyers are here to completely change the engagement envelope on a number of situations. Damn the Bifost can tank good, if fitted well (o7 St Lucifer).

We have yet to see the true fallout from this change and I suspect I will still approve of balancing passes on all the links and T3C.

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"

Switch Savage
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#299 - 2015-12-17 10:42:43 UTC
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
Switch Savage wrote:
Well hey skirmish links have to be on grid after this change so scram/point range will drop for most gangs. But we will likely just see HICs in all kiting gangs (Yay 37.5km scram :D).


In Rakapas, the jump gates to Reisato and to Iwisoda are on the same grid. I doubt this is the only occurance.

This allows for the links to be "safe" to an exit that is a warp away whilst still applying the bonus. I am pretty sure the new "on grid links" are going to be gamed effectively just as they have before.

At least Command destroyers are here to completely change the engagement envelope on a number of situations. Damn the Bifost can tank good, if fitted well (o7 St Lucifer).

We have yet to see the true fallout from this change and I suspect I will still approve of balancing passes on all the links and T3C.


Yeah i am not too fussed about it all really. I am sure that the on grid links will have a limit so you cant just burn them around with 100mn thousands of kms from the engagement, but we shall have to wait and see. The command dessies are some of the most fun i have had in eve and are hilarious for getting kills as well as killing friends :D.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#300 - 2015-12-17 16:30:29 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:

The fact that links allow you to brawl outnumbered is not a good thing. Links also make kiting ships better, so that kind of makes your whole point moot.

Kiting is better because you can strategically reposition your ship at will to avoid getting dog piled, while still doing damage from long range.

Brawling is worse because it is much easier to get blobbed when you recklessly charge into scram range.

Links do not balance this dichotomy, they are overpowered no matter which playstyle you choose.

CCP could buff scram range fighting if they really want to but I don't know if anyone thinks that is a good idea. Ultimately, kiting is rightfully the superior strategy.

As Ragged Starkiller pointed out, there are exceptions to the rule (as always). Brawling works really well, IF you stick to fighting on gates, stations or in plexes, because the brawling ship can use these mechanics to his advantage.

But in open space the kiting ship is king.

The fact is you do not need links to successfully fight outnumbered or outshipped. Just because links make it easier for you does not make them a good game mechanic.


Overpowered in a 1v1 situation, sure. But as others have said, it doesn't make you invincible.

They make pvppp (player versus people) possible. Without offgrid links, the solo guys will have to make due with kiting and give up brawling altogether.

But the gangs, they'll still have their links. They have the people to 'spare' to put in command destroyers. They also have access to ewar, cheap logi, capacitor warfare.......all the tools they need to take down something they have tackled.

Anybody could have fired up an account and trained links for the pvppp, but they'd rather moan on the forums about how unfair it is that their superior ship and/or superior numbers lost a fight because of links.

A pair of comets in a novice I can take. Online the links, pop the exile, overload the deadspace reps, hope neither of them has a neut. Without links there's no option except a snaked up garmur or getting more pilots.

- I lost to links
- I lost to logi
- I lost to pirate implants
- I lost to blob
- I lost to ecm

How are any of those worse than the first? Is it because the links aren't on grid? It's not like there's no risk to the link ships, I'm sure everybody that has them has lost them at some point to tornados, command destroyer MJD, being probed out.........

And remember, I am specifically talking about one vs many......in scram range. Without links that whole playstyle is dead unless one is shield tanked and shipped up.