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End the RLML Plague!
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Vailen Sere
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#81 - 2015-12-10 21:05:36 UTC
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Rapid Light Missile Launchers are almost the perfect weapon system for fighting Frigates. They're way too good. The reload time isn't enough of a downside for the many, many upsides and benefits they have.

When a weapon system allows a Battlecruiser to WTFPWN a Frigate, there's something very, very wrong.

Be it explosion velocity or radius, or a straight damage nerf per volley, they need some kind of drawback to bring them back into line with every other weapon system.

The missile tracking disruptors will certainly help, on those rare frigate fits that can spare the midslot to fit a specific counter to a specific weapon system.

Currently, the ONLY thing a frigate can do against an RLML fit *anything* is hope they can get away before a couple of volleys drops them.

Personally, I reckon just get rid of them altogether.

SO, your saying you have problems when your in a frigate against a cruiser using RLML's when it's meant to kill frigates.. that's isnteresting.. didn't they just put out a missile disruption module? you should give it a try.
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2015-12-12 08:25:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
Vailen Sere wrote:
SO, your saying you have problems when your in a frigate against a cruiser using RLML's when it's meant to kill frigates.. that's isnteresting.. didn't they just put out a missile disruption module? you should give it a try.


For starters, the missile disruption mods don't work very well on hulls that aren't bonused to weapon disruption.
Even when they ARE, they are still not very good and you will often need 2x to shut out LIGHT MISSILES.


The BIG issues are that :
A. Cruiser+ hulls are getting bonuses to frigate weaponry to do Cruiser+ damage. This is ridiculous.

B. The front-loaded damage output trumps everything else in class. This is especially obvious when you start adding multiple ships to the fray. Sure they need to reload in 30 seconds, but you've got to survive a ridiculous amount of raw damage before then. In a 1v1 situation, that may be possible, but that's rarely the case.

C. The fitting further benefits the high damage output by allowing for the biggest possible tank.

When it seems the #1 used ships to counter anything smaller than a BS are RLML based, you've got a big balance problem. As a soloer, it is insanely obvious if you were to watch one of my streams. Fly a frig or cruiser? You're going to be attacked by RLMLs.

Remove the light missile / RLML bonuses from cruiser+ hulls.
They don't need them, as that shouldnt be their role.

Thats waht all the bloody small ships are for. ANTI SUPPORT.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#83 - 2015-12-13 05:51:16 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Vailen Sere wrote:
SO, your saying you have problems when your in a frigate against a cruiser using RLML's when it's meant to kill frigates.. that's isnteresting.. didn't they just put out a missile disruption module? you should give it a try.


For starters, the missile disruption mods don't work very well on hulls that aren't bonused to weapon disruption.
Even when they ARE, they are still not very good and you will often need 2x to shut out LIGHT MISSILES.


The BIG issues are that :
A. Cruiser+ hulls are getting bonuses to frigate weaponry to do Cruiser+ damage. This is ridiculous.

B. The front-loaded damage output trumps everything else in class. This is especially obvious when you start adding multiple ships to the fray. Sure they need to reload in 30 seconds, but you've got to survive a ridiculous amount of raw damage before then. In a 1v1 situation, that may be possible, but that's rarely the case.

C. The fitting further benefits the high damage output by allowing for the biggest possible tank.

When it seems the #1 used ships to counter anything smaller than a BS are RLML based, you've got a big balance problem. As a soloer, it is insanely obvious if you were to watch one of my streams. Fly a frig or cruiser? You're going to be attacked by RLMLs.

Remove the light missile / RLML bonuses from cruiser+ hulls.
They don't need them, as that shouldnt be their role.

Thats waht all the bloody small ships are for. ANTI SUPPORT.

You should take multiple unbonused disruptors to shut down weapons in the right class.
However rather than your suggestions allow me to offer an alternative.

We reduce LM's range by reducing flight time, so that they aren't massively longer ranged than any other small weapon
Firstly this removes the massive tendency towards kitey missile frigates currently.
Secondly it means cruisers fitting RLML are giving up significant range relative to Heavy Missiles. & don't outrange HAM's.

We then fix HAM's & HM's so they actually apply to Cruisers properly, so people don't need to use RLML to apply damage to a cruiser. A cruiser sized weapon system should actually work vs cruisers using standard T1 ammo.
This means that cruisers hunting cruisers will use HM's & HAM's rather than RLML, so frigates won't be caught as often as a side product.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#84 - 2015-12-13 08:11:47 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

You should take multiple unbonused disruptors to shut down weapons in the right class.
However rather than your suggestions allow me to offer an alternative.

We reduce LM's range by reducing flight time, so that they aren't massively longer ranged than any other small weapon
Firstly this removes the massive tendency towards kitey missile frigates currently.
Secondly it means cruisers fitting RLML are giving up significant range relative to Heavy Missiles. & don't outrange HAM's.

We then fix HAM's & HM's so they actually apply to Cruisers properly, so people don't need to use RLML to apply damage to a cruiser. A cruiser sized weapon system should actually work vs cruisers using standard T1 ammo.
This means that cruisers hunting cruisers will use HM's & HAM's rather than RLML, so frigates won't be caught as often as a side product.


Kite missile frigs are only a thing because brawling missile frigs aren't a very good thing...

You can't nerf the only thing they have going for them in order to balance cruisers.
What needs to happen is the same that happens with BS hulls using RHMLs.
Most of the BSs don't receive range and application bonuses to heavies. Only cruise and torp. Though, there are a couple navy/pirate hulls that do receive bonus.
So, remove range and application bonuses from cruisers, for light missiles.
There range is reduced, their application is reduced, and frigates aren't touched.

Then, rebalance the missile systems that underperform.

Rockets - They're out classed by every other weapon system in their catagory.
Hams - Need application and fitting costs
HML - Needs application, velocity, and fitting costs
Cruise - Kind of ok.. Maybe velocity for some of them
Torps - Application, and FOR THE LOVE OF GOD velocity... I'm convinced i can bet my BS to pass my torps after they've been fired.

Rebalance BC hulls and rapid heavies to accommodate the changes.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#85 - 2015-12-13 08:29:59 UTC
Or.... nerf the over-performing missiles as well as buffing the under-performing missiles.
Light Missiles are over-performing even on frigates.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#86 - 2015-12-13 21:07:57 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
...We reduce LM's range by reducing flight time, so that they aren't massively longer ranged than any other small weapon....


Hold on. Please when you discuss weapon systems, keep in mind that some of them need to have to go a travel agency, book a flight, take that flight and check into a hotel to do business first.

The reason fly missiles have a flight time is movement. This movement includes everything that is involved in that fight. Say I am flying a Hookbill and shoot missiles to a fleeing rifter.
The rifter pilot is a newby and his first insticts tell him to get away. So he burns while I chase him and a high velocity race begins.

The maximum range of my 42km is is now much, much short than 42km.

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Valacus
Streets of Fire
#87 - 2015-12-14 01:14:18 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Vailen Sere wrote:
SO, your saying you have problems when your in a frigate against a cruiser using RLML's when it's meant to kill frigates.. that's isnteresting.. didn't they just put out a missile disruption module? you should give it a try.


For starters, the missile disruption mods don't work very well on hulls that aren't bonused to weapon disruption.
Even when they ARE, they are still not very good and you will often need 2x to shut out LIGHT MISSILES.


The BIG issues are that :
A. Cruiser+ hulls are getting bonuses to frigate weaponry to do Cruiser+ damage. This is ridiculous.

B. The front-loaded damage output trumps everything else in class. This is especially obvious when you start adding multiple ships to the fray. Sure they need to reload in 30 seconds, but you've got to survive a ridiculous amount of raw damage before then. In a 1v1 situation, that may be possible, but that's rarely the case.

C. The fitting further benefits the high damage output by allowing for the biggest possible tank.

When it seems the #1 used ships to counter anything smaller than a BS are RLML based, you've got a big balance problem. As a soloer, it is insanely obvious if you were to watch one of my streams. Fly a frig or cruiser? You're going to be attacked by RLMLs.

Remove the light missile / RLML bonuses from cruiser+ hulls.
They don't need them, as that shouldnt be their role.

Thats waht all the bloody small ships are for. ANTI SUPPORT.


Oh please, anti-support is a blatant lie. T3D gangs can be used to kill anything. Alliances use them to kill carriers, and now that they had T2 logi frigs and command dessies, T3Ds are even more out of control. If anything we need more RLML bonused ships, cruiser and up. We need all dual turret weapons to have the scan resolution of the weapon class below them and a tracking boost so they can also be used to counter frigate/destroyer gangs. Small ships are the plague, RLMLs are the cure.
FT Cold
FT Cold Corporation
#88 - 2015-12-14 03:05:46 UTC
Valacus wrote:
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Vailen Sere wrote:
SO, your saying you have problems when your in a frigate against a cruiser using RLML's when it's meant to kill frigates.. that's isnteresting.. didn't they just put out a missile disruption module? you should give it a try.


For starters, the missile disruption mods don't work very well on hulls that aren't bonused to weapon disruption.
Even when they ARE, they are still not very good and you will often need 2x to shut out LIGHT MISSILES.


The BIG issues are that :
A. Cruiser+ hulls are getting bonuses to frigate weaponry to do Cruiser+ damage. This is ridiculous.

B. The front-loaded damage output trumps everything else in class. This is especially obvious when you start adding multiple ships to the fray. Sure they need to reload in 30 seconds, but you've got to survive a ridiculous amount of raw damage before then. In a 1v1 situation, that may be possible, but that's rarely the case.

C. The fitting further benefits the high damage output by allowing for the biggest possible tank.

When it seems the #1 used ships to counter anything smaller than a BS are RLML based, you've got a big balance problem. As a soloer, it is insanely obvious if you were to watch one of my streams. Fly a frig or cruiser? You're going to be attacked by RLMLs.

Remove the light missile / RLML bonuses from cruiser+ hulls.
They don't need them, as that shouldnt be their role.

Thats waht all the bloody small ships are for. ANTI SUPPORT.


Oh please, anti-support is a blatant lie. T3D gangs can be used to kill anything. Alliances use them to kill carriers, and now that they had T2 logi frigs and command dessies, T3Ds are even more out of control. If anything we need more RLML bonused ships, cruiser and up. We need all dual turret weapons to have the scan resolution of the weapon class below them and a tracking boost so they can also be used to counter frigate/destroyer gangs. Small ships are the plague, RLMLs are the cure.


That's why the first step has got to be to nerf t3ds. Savagely. Put them down to t1 destroyer strength. Then you won't need RLML garbage to counter them. After that, nerf or outright remove RLMLs and restore balance to the frigate and destroyer metagame, then we can move forward in a sensible way.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#89 - 2015-12-14 03:16:01 UTC
FT Cold wrote:
...That's why the first step has got to be to nerf t3ds. Savagely. Put them down to t1 destroyer strength. Then you won't need RLML garbage to counter them. After that, nerf or outright remove RLMLs and restore balance to the frigate and destroyer metagame, then we can move forward in a sensible way.


You meant to say "nerf that minmatar destroyer". The rest of them are fine as is.

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HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#90 - 2015-12-14 04:12:16 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
FT Cold wrote:
...That's why the first step has got to be to nerf t3ds. Savagely. Put them down to t1 destroyer strength. Then you won't need RLML garbage to counter them. After that, nerf or outright remove RLMLs and restore balance to the frigate and destroyer metagame, then we can move forward in a sensible way.


You meant to say "nerf that minmatar destroyer". The rest of them are fine as is.

"The Minimatar have the most virulent kind of cancer; all other cancer is fine"
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#91 - 2015-12-14 04:22:17 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
FT Cold wrote:
...That's why the first step has got to be to nerf t3ds. Savagely. Put them down to t1 destroyer strength. Then you won't need RLML garbage to counter them. After that, nerf or outright remove RLMLs and restore balance to the frigate and destroyer metagame, then we can move forward in a sensible way.


You meant to say "nerf that minmatar destroyer". The rest of them are fine as is.

"The Minimatar have the most virulent kind of cancer; all other cancer is fine"



I'm going to kinda defend elitatwo on this..
I don't know about all the t3ds, but the jackdaw doesn't seem to be too out of whack.
Given that it has 3 configurations, I feel it's relatively balance in each of those.
However, the problem is that they can easily swap back a forth, thus configuring for the fight on the fly.
This is where balance comes in to play.
It at said, im not going to pretend I know how to fix the solution, as the only thing I can think of essentially defeats the purpose of having modes at all.
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2015-12-14 05:21:11 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
You should take multiple unbonused disruptors to shut down weapons in the right class.

That isn't the case w/ TDs. It already takes 2x BONUSED MDs to take a Light Missile spewer out of contention.

Nevyn Auscent wrote:
We then fix HAM's & HM's so they actually apply to Cruisers properly, so people don't need to use RLML to apply damage to a cruiser. A cruiser sized weapon system should actually work vs cruisers using standard T1 ammo.
This means that cruisers hunting cruisers will use HM's & HAM's rather than RLML, so frigates won't be caught as often as a side product.


HAMs apply fine. Use the rigs if you want to kite, or crash if your skills are ****. They apply perfectly fine to tackled targets.
HMLs could use a bit of work.

RLML damage is too high, period.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#93 - 2015-12-14 06:10:52 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
I'm going to kinda defend elitatwo on this..
I don't know about all the t3ds, but the jackdaw doesn't seem to be too out of whack.

I don't call them cancer for fighting up well, I call them cancer for being better than everything below them at everything. The jackdaw is just as guilty of that as the others; they are as fast or faster than frigates and turn faster.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#94 - 2015-12-14 06:18:25 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
I'm going to kinda defend elitatwo on this..
I don't know about all the t3ds, but the jackdaw doesn't seem to be too out of whack.

I don't call them cancer for fighting up well, I call them cancer for being better than everything below them at everything. The jackdaw is just as guilty of that as the others; they are as fast or faster than frigates and turn faster.


Again, I would argue that in and of itself isn't a problem.
The problem is, they can swap modes at any time.

Being kited? Go sharpshooter and peg them, or go propulsion and catch up
Target has high dps? go tank mode
Target has low tracking? go prop mode


The jackdaw is fairly well balanced it each mode.
It's the ability to easily swap modes that becomes the issue.

Perhaps increase the cooldown timer on swapping to something like 1 minute or so.
Now they must dedicate themselves to that mode, instead of swapping quickly when the first mode swap isn't optimal.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#95 - 2015-12-14 09:42:07 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
You should take multiple unbonused disruptors to shut down weapons in the right class.

That isn't the case w/ TDs. It already takes 2x BONUSED MDs to take a Light Missile spewer out of contention.

Nevyn Auscent wrote:
We then fix HAM's & HM's so they actually apply to Cruisers properly, so people don't need to use RLML to apply damage to a cruiser. A cruiser sized weapon system should actually work vs cruisers using standard T1 ammo.
This means that cruisers hunting cruisers will use HM's & HAM's rather than RLML, so frigates won't be caught as often as a side product.


HAMs apply fine. Use the rigs if you want to kite, or crash if your skills are ****. They apply perfectly fine to tackled targets.
HMLs could use a bit of work.

RLML damage is too high, period.


Prometheus dear, I have to disagree with you. Heavy missile application is terrible and you know it. There is no turret boat in EVE where you are forces to fit 700 application mods to make them do damage.
You just need to accelarate to mitigate 50% heavy missiles damage without a prop mod.

Maybe heavy assault missiles are fine when you have pinned you target but have you ever tried to hit a frigate with javelin assault missiles without a web?

svipul says lolololol.

If you followed us here, I said many, many times that this rapid launcher nonsense is not the right approach to make missiles work and having to have a fleet of remote ewar to make missiles do damage is a very strong indicator that they do not work.

One could argue that skirmish links are the disease that we are trying to cure.

I have an idea to remove that singature radius link and replace it with a remote targetted one but I can already hear the rivers floating.

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RcTamiya
Magister Mortalis.
#96 - 2015-12-14 09:59:12 UTC
This issue becomes REALLY noticeable once you pvp in a magnetar wormhole .... Golems even with RHML aint a threat at all, if oyu have an afterburner.... (~90 dmg volleys \o/)
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#97 - 2015-12-14 10:27:28 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
You should take multiple unbonused disruptors to shut down weapons in the right class.

That isn't the case w/ TDs. It already takes 2x BONUSED MDs to take a Light Missile spewer out of contention.


Erm, two unbonused TDs will half missile DPS with absolutely nothing the pilot can do about it.


This was based on tests involving a kestrel shooting LML at a T2 MWD heron with the pair of disruptors on it.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#98 - 2015-12-14 10:46:27 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:

HAMs apply fine. Use the rigs if you want to kite, or crash if your skills are ****. They apply perfectly fine to tackled targets.
HMLs could use a bit of work.

RLML damage is too high, period.

Missiles should not need the target to be tackled when shooting at a standard target of the intended size to apply damage.
Turrets you can pretty much apply damage perfectly from a cruiser to a cruiser if they don't have a prop mod without any tracking rigs or modules.
Regardless of the turret, since assuming you pilot smart you can't out track them in that situation.

Missiles should be in the same boat for application. However before prop mod you are already mitigating significant damage with HAM's & HM's when in a cruiser.
The Rigs & Modules should be what allow you to apply HAM's & HM's damage onto frigates & untackled cruisers with prop mods, since fitting for application nerfs your tank.
RcTamiya
Magister Mortalis.
#99 - 2015-12-14 11:01:33 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:

HAMs apply fine. Use the rigs if you want to kite, or crash if your skills are ****. They apply perfectly fine to tackled targets.
HMLs could use a bit of work.

RLML damage is too high, period.

Missiles should not need the target to be tackled when shooting at a standard target of the intended size to apply damage.
Turrets you can pretty much apply damage perfectly from a cruiser to a cruiser if they don't have a prop mod without any tracking rigs or modules.
Regardless of the turret, since assuming you pilot smart you can't out track them in that situation.

Missiles should be in the same boat for application. However before prop mod you are already mitigating significant damage with HAM's & HM's when in a cruiser.
The Rigs & Modules should be what allow you to apply HAM's & HM's damage onto frigates & untackled cruisers with prop mods, since fitting for application nerfs your tank.



I give you one reason, why changing mechanics for missiles is bad: Blappheonix, we all know what happens if mechanics gets touched there (RIP wspace-pvp)

So, you only have one (light missiles) out of six (cruise, torps, HM, HAMs, rockets) Missiletypes beeing viable, buffing the other 5 and nerfing the superior is actually bad, we all agree on this.
So you have to rework how they apply their damage, doing this shouldn't effect citadel Weapons too much, remember Cap rebalance?! Whatever you do to improve general dps application and/or projection of Missiles in general, it will make a Pheonix skyrocket as Blapdread, if you aint VERY VERY VERY careful.

TLDR: rework missilemechanics nessescary, do not buff Blappheonix!
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#100 - 2015-12-14 12:12:46 UTC
RcTamiya wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:

HAMs apply fine. Use the rigs if you want to kite, or crash if your skills are ****. They apply perfectly fine to tackled targets.
HMLs could use a bit of work.

RLML damage is too high, period.

Missiles should not need the target to be tackled when shooting at a standard target of the intended size to apply damage.
Turrets you can pretty much apply damage perfectly from a cruiser to a cruiser if they don't have a prop mod without any tracking rigs or modules.
Regardless of the turret, since assuming you pilot smart you can't out track them in that situation.

Missiles should be in the same boat for application. However before prop mod you are already mitigating significant damage with HAM's & HM's when in a cruiser.
The Rigs & Modules should be what allow you to apply HAM's & HM's damage onto frigates & untackled cruisers with prop mods, since fitting for application nerfs your tank.



I give you one reason, why changing mechanics for missiles is bad: Blappheonix, we all know what happens if mechanics gets touched there (RIP wspace-pvp)

So, you only have one (light missiles) out of six (cruise, torps, HM, HAMs, rockets) Missiletypes beeing viable, buffing the other 5 and nerfing the superior is actually bad, we all agree on this.
So you have to rework how they apply their damage, doing this shouldn't effect citadel Weapons too much, remember Cap rebalance?! Whatever you do to improve general dps application and/or projection of Missiles in general, it will make a Pheonix skyrocket as Blapdread, if you aint VERY VERY VERY careful.

TLDR: rework missilemechanics nessescary, do not buff Blappheonix!


Slippery slope. While I do know you mean well you should consider that the Moros, the Revelation and that minmatar thing can do just that - blapp.
But for the sake of small gang pvp let's just stay at below capital weapons.

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