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NEBULA CHANGES DISCUSSION

First post
Author
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#61 - 2015-12-11 00:07:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
CCP Darwin wrote:
Never is a long time, but as long as we can find ways to improve the look of the game that we feel provide better value for the time, we'll be doing those things instead.

So about the really pixelated nebulae - is there anything that can be done here in a reasonable timeframe? It really stands out in stark contrast to all the beautiful work you've done on the ships, textures, etc.

CCP Darwin wrote:
With respect to the environments, we were aware of the limitations of what we were releasing, and trust me, we did see the issues that you've pointed out. The image compression artifacts that are particularly visible in a certain regions of space are a technical limitation that requires further work, but our judgment was that the additional feeling of depth that having nebulas occlude stars provided was of greater value.

There is absolutely zero feeling of depth from my perspective. All I see are large areas of pixelated backgrounds. I don't know if this is a Mac-specific thing, but even a 4k monitor does nothing to smooth it out.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#62 - 2015-12-11 00:21:47 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
There is absolutely zero feeling of depth from my perspective. All I see are large areas of pixelated backgrounds. I don't know if this is a Mac-specific thing, but even a 4k monitor does nothing to smooth it out.

One thing to try before doing anything else is to visit the Displays section of System Preferences. Under the Color tab, you should be able to calibrate your display. Calibrate for your monitor's native white point and Gamma 2.2 (if you have that option).

You may well find that this, in itself, resolves the issue. If not, try using the new Brightness slider in-game. Even minor adjustments might make these artifacts less annoying.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#63 - 2015-12-11 00:40:11 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
There is absolutely zero feeling of depth from my perspective. All I see are large areas of pixelated backgrounds. I don't know if this is a Mac-specific thing, but even a 4k monitor does nothing to smooth it out.

One thing to try before doing anything else is to visit the Displays section of System Preferences. Under the Color tab, you should be able to calibrate your display. Calibrate for your monitor's native white point and Gamma 2.2 (if you have that option).

You may well find that this, in itself, resolves the issue. If not, try using the new Brightness slider in-game. Even minor adjustments might make these artifacts less annoying.


Can confirm adjusting the brightness slider really helped to minimize the artifact issue.


"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#64 - 2015-12-11 00:44:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
CCP Darwin wrote:
One thing to try before doing anything else is to visit the Displays section of System Preferences. Under the Color tab, you should be able to calibrate your display. Calibrate for your monitor's native white point and Gamma 2.2 (if you have that option).

You may well find that this, in itself, resolves the issue. If not, try using the new Brightness slider in-game. Even minor adjustments might make these artifacts less annoying.

Thanks for the suggestions (as it turns out I'd previously calibrated the monitor for the native white point and Gamma 2.2). Playing around with the brightness didn't really have any effect either - except to darken the pixelation and artifacts. The colors look fantastic - and there are very sharp details with contrasts and shadows (both in-station and undocked). Because it generally looks so great the pixelation in the nebulae really stands out and instead of blending into the background it jumps out at you wherever you look at the screen.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Memphis Baas
#65 - 2015-12-11 03:17:32 UTC
I don't know the first thing about graphics and zooming, but think that a more realistic-looking effect would be to zoom the immediate vicinity (the grid, basically) and NOT zoom the background stars and nebulas. Because the zoom isn't really a lens zoom, it's the camera drones moving closer to whatever we're looking at; and in reality when we move we get closer to nearby objects but the horizon, sky, stars, etc. stay at the same apparent distance as before.
Solecist Project
#66 - 2015-12-11 09:28:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
I added an image to the album of minmatar nebulae.
It's from caldari space.

Same issues...

http://imgur.com/a/Pt8Jw

And amarr space.


Yeah I'm bored, sorry. :p

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#67 - 2015-12-11 10:36:16 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
Because the zoom isn't really a lens zoom, it's the camera drones moving closer to whatever we're looking at; and in reality when we move we get closer to nearby objects but the horizon, sky, stars, etc. stay at the same apparent distance as before.

Our camera can both dolly and zoom depending on your control inputs. If you see the star field magnified, you're zooming, i.e. increasing the focal length.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

Solecist Project
#68 - 2015-12-11 13:22:16 UTC
For those who don't know what a dolly is ...

http://imgur.com/gallery/EtuYBWz

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#69 - 2015-12-11 18:34:48 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
For those who don't know what a dolly is ...

http://imgur.com/gallery/EtuYBWz


That's actually a "dolly/zoom" where you dolly one way and zoom the other. A dolly by itself is a translation of the camera toward or away from the subject without zooming.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#70 - 2015-12-11 18:37:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Bumblefck
Epic burn



I haven't noticed the pixilation issues though, so I guess I'm lucky, perhaps?

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log

Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#71 - 2015-12-11 21:05:17 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Stuff



Nothing new then. Ignore the test players ignore the forums, ignore the pay to win nonsense, ignore money..... wait what?

You get the picture. CCP needs to listen if the want to stay alive the next 10 years, or the game is bleeding to death.

New stuff is great don`t get me wrong on that. Experiment stuff great to (IF FIXS).

Add new content ... Yah great

Add new game play .... uhmm what new game play? - avatar (if finish yah) not have broken or have done stuff.

Add STORE .... yah.... wait what? clothes merchandise sure. LP/ISK ow man hell no. However sins plex there game players are reduce to half sins why grinding when you can pay easy 20 bucks for 1,1 bil now.
Solecist Project
#72 - 2015-12-11 21:12:17 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
For those who don't know what a dolly is ...

http://imgur.com/gallery/EtuYBWz


That's actually a "dolly/zoom" where you dolly one way and zoom the other. A dolly by itself is a translation of the camera toward or away from the subject without zooming.

Yes, thanks, I dropped the word. :)

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2015-12-11 22:15:31 UTC
Johan Civire wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Stuff



Nothing new then. Ignore the test players ignore the forums, ignore the pay to win nonsense, ignore money..... wait what?

You get the picture. CCP needs to listen if the want to stay alive the next 10 years, or the game is bleeding to death.

New stuff is great don`t get me wrong on that. Experiment stuff great to (IF FIXS).

Add new content ... Yah great

Add new game play .... uhmm what new game play? - avatar (if finish yah) not have broken or have done stuff.

Add STORE .... yah.... wait what? clothes merchandise sure. LP/ISK ow man hell no. However sins plex there game players are reduce to half sins why grinding when you can pay easy 20 bucks for 1,1 bil now.


I'm going to go but some aurum, New cloths, and skins just to spite thee.
Alva Dyson
Macross Consortium
#74 - 2015-12-12 18:00:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Alva Dyson
I'm running with max graphic settings on a Geforce 980, but the background just looks too pixely(?) to me. Or maybe there aren't enough colors supported which make the nebula and space appear blotchy. I've also wondered if there are too many nebulae.
Coredeath Cicada
Bueno Excellente.
Fraternity.
#75 - 2015-12-13 10:08:39 UTC
Alva Dyson wrote:
I'm running with max graphic settings on a Geforce 980, but the background just looks too pixely(?) to me. Or maybe there aren't enough colors supported which make the nebula and space appear blotchy. I've also wondered if there are too many nebulae.


Same, I can run maxing out everything, granted a few things tank my system like certain dust clouds and the Epicentre in shattered wormholes (no idea why but eh) and my spacial backgrounds just look fuzzy and unappealling, it really stands out of all the long term work CCP has been doing to make the rest of the game look fantastic.

I'm hoping this is fixed soon, perhaps backtrack to what it was before for the time being, immersion is something I love about this game and right now I can't do it =(
Legion Masser
Brohemia
Holy Broman Empire
#76 - 2015-12-13 22:19:21 UTC
I can understand CCP doesn't want to hinder the performance of Eve but come on!
This game isn't anywhere near DEMANDING - Im pretty sure most 2yr old Smart Phones could max Eve out graphically.

Eve runs my GPU's at about 15% each MAX with Eve at the highest possibly settings ( feels funny saying Eve on Ultra Settings lol ) Now i understand my GPU's may be better then some peoples but still , just make an option for those who can graphically afford it can simply download it by itself and install it. Aren't textures the easiest of things to mod?

Trying to improve the quality of Eve's visuals without requiring Eve's users to actually have a Rig that can handle it seems like a losing battle.

Someday I hope Eve becomes graphically demanding :) I hope Eve to requires serious Epeen power , I want it to make my Rig scream and have to turn down settings lol

Isn't that why we have sliders?

☢☢☢☢☢☢☢- Your Anger is a Gift -☢☢☢☢☢☢☢ Do you even Titan? ☢☢☢ Potato ☢☢☢Lemon☢☢☢

CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#77 - 2015-12-13 22:45:57 UTC
Legion Masser wrote:
Aren't textures the easiest of things to mod?

No, for two reasons. One is that many of the better options for texture compression require DX11, and we currently support DX9.

Second is that textures constitute most of the data we deliver to the client, so modest increases in texture size can have big impacts enlarging Eve's size footprint, required download bandwidth, and also overall graphics performance.

That's not to say that changing textures to fix an issue is a difficult task, but it's one that has to be balanced against our other tasks, and we have a busy spring lined up in the art department.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

Solecist Project
#78 - 2015-12-14 00:25:56 UTC

Have you tried running your own little decompression algorithm on the shader?
Nebulae are mostly gradients...

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
#79 - 2015-12-14 09:23:19 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:



Never is a long time,


I know. Remember Incarna?

lolz.
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#80 - 2015-12-14 10:36:25 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:

Have you tried running your own little decompression algorithm on the shader?
Nebulae are mostly gradients...

Gentle color gradients are by far the hardest type of image to compress without visible artifacts.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins