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The hate for miners and industrialists is unreal!

First post
Author
Paranoid Loyd
#21 - 2015-12-10 23:30:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Azure Feixing wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Ok so you're trolling, IBTL


No. I mean what I say. Eve is not as good as it used to be. It seems like players have abandoned EVEs former values and adopted easier ways.

Look man, you lost a shitfit hauler in low sec. 99.9% of the players in Eve would have killed your dumbass. It has nothing to do with the fact you are a miner, in fact there is no way in hell the guy that killed you knew were a miner. So to say there is hate for miners based off your loss is just childish. You were using poor tactics that is why you were killed, no other reason.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#22 - 2015-12-10 23:31:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Azure Feixing wrote:
The stupidity of the PVP

Is killing shuttles ok within your rules for acceptable pvp?

Just asking, looking at your killboard and all.
Azure Feixing
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#23 - 2015-12-10 23:34:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Azure Feixing
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Azure Feixing wrote:
The stupidity of the PVP

Is killing shuttles ok within your rules for pvp?

Just saying. Looking at your killboard and all.


The shuttles we killed we players in our WH. They were not active, and had logged off in space inside of a recently aquired POS. As we destroyed the ships left inside the shield, we ran into a few of these shuttle that we had no idea were alive.

And did I not say that PVP is okay? As long as PVP players are going against one another. Like wars, invasions, etc.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#24 - 2015-12-10 23:38:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Azure Feixing wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Azure Feixing wrote:
The stupidity of the PVP

Is killing shuttles ok within your rules for pvp?

Just saying. Looking at your killboard and all.


The shuttles we killed we players in our WH. They were not active, and had logged off in space inside of a recently aquired POS. As we destroyed the ships left inside the shield, we ran into a few of these shuttle that we had no idea were alive.

And did I not say that PVP is okay? As long as PVP players are going against one another. Like wars, invasions, etc.

So killing logged off shuttles is ok, because clearly the players are going against you while logged off.

Killing you is not ok.

Got it.
Azure Feixing
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#25 - 2015-12-10 23:40:09 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Azure Feixing wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Azure Feixing wrote:
The stupidity of the PVP

Is killing shuttles ok within your rules for pvp?

Just saying. Looking at your killboard and all.


The shuttles we killed we players in our WH. They were not active, and had logged off in space inside of a recently aquired POS. As we destroyed the ships left inside the shield, we ran into a few of these shuttle that we had no idea were alive.

And did I not say that PVP is okay? As long as PVP players are going against one another. Like wars, invasions, etc.

So killing logged off shuttles is ok, because clearly the players are going against you while logged off. Got it.

Killing you is not ok.

Got it.


Can you read? I said we had NO idea the shuttle has pilots in them, and since we PURCHASED the WH they were given plenty of time to leave. Not to mention to completely different circumstances.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#26 - 2015-12-10 23:42:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Azure Feixing wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Azure Feixing wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Azure Feixing wrote:
The stupidity of the PVP

Is killing shuttles ok within your rules for pvp?

Just saying. Looking at your killboard and all.


The shuttles we killed we players in our WH. They were not active, and had logged off in space inside of a recently aquired POS. As we destroyed the ships left inside the shield, we ran into a few of these shuttle that we had no idea were alive.

And did I not say that PVP is okay? As long as PVP players are going against one another. Like wars, invasions, etc.

So killing logged off shuttles is ok, because clearly the players are going against you while logged off. Got it.

Killing you is not ok.

Got it.


Can you read? I said we had NO idea the shuttle has pilots in them, and since we PURCHASED the WH they were given plenty of time to leave. Not to mention to completely different circumstances.


Yeah I can read.

Killing someone's ship is ok if you don't know you are killing someone's ship.

Ok. Got it this time.

How long should I give someone to leave before its ok to shoot their ship?

This is so confusing.

Any more rules I should abide by to make sure I only do acceptable pvp?

Maybe you can detail them all?
Azure Feixing
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#27 - 2015-12-10 23:47:36 UTC


"Yeah I can read.

Killing someone's ship is ok if you don't know you are killing someone's ship.

Ok. Got it this time.

How long should I give someone to leave before its ok to shoot their ship?

This is so confusing.

Any more rules I should abide by to make sure I only do acceptable pvp?

Maybe you can detail them all?[/quote]

Pretty sure I covered this topic. Perhaps reading and ANALYZING the whole thread will help.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#28 - 2015-12-10 23:52:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Azure Feixing wrote:
Pretty sure I covered this topic. Perhaps reading and ANALYZING the whole thread will help.

Lol. Yeah ok.

So the rules so far:

1. Don't shoot industrialists
2. Dont shoot miners
3. Don't shoot other ships unless it's mutual

Disclaimer:
It's ok to shoot someone's ship as long as you don't know someone else owns it
It's ok to shoot someone's ship if you give them enough time to leave

All other pvp makes you scum and in any case PvPers don't contribute anything to the economy anyway. They just PLEX their accounts.

Ok. I think that summarises the thread so far.

This should be in a Wiki somewhere.
Raiz Nhell
Tactically Challenged
Tactical Supremacy
#29 - 2015-12-10 23:54:15 UTC
Azure Feixing wrote:


And did I not say that PVP is okay? As long as PVP players are going against one another. Like wars, invasions, etc.


Ahhh... so what your asking is to be completely safe... gotcha... go away.

How do you know you weren't killed in an invasion, how do you know the person who killed you doesn't want your WH.

As has been pointed out, all of Eve is competitive, all of Eve is PVP, there is no distinction between an industrialist and a PVP once you undock.

By undocking you are a PVP player, by undercutting on the market you are a PVP player, by mining you are denying others the minerals... it is all PVP.

Adapt and overcome. Eve success is based on climbing a pyramid that is made of other characters, tear down those above you and trample those below.

There is no such thing as a fair fight...

If your fighting fair you have automatically put yourself at a disadvantage.

Bobb Bobbington
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2015-12-11 00:02:55 UTC
heh, you're funny. I suppose you make ships with your minerals and think insurance is an isk sink too.

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.

Azure Feixing
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#31 - 2015-12-11 00:14:07 UTC
Raiz Nhell wrote:
Azure Feixing wrote:


And did I not say that PVP is okay? As long as PVP players are going against one another. Like wars, invasions, etc.


Ahhh... so what your asking is to be completely safe... gotcha... go away.

How do you know you weren't killed in an invasion, how do you know the person who killed you doesn't want your WH.

As has been pointed out, all of Eve is competitive, all of Eve is PVP, there is no distinction between an industrialist and a PVP once you undock.

By undocking you are a PVP player, by undercutting on the market you are a PVP player, by mining you are denying others the minerals... it is all PVP.

Adapt and overcome. Eve success is based on climbing a pyramid that is made of other characters, tear down those above you and trample those below.


Players like you will be the destruction of eve. Ask any dev here if the game was build SOLELY for PVP, and that miners withhold minerals from others? That has to be the stupidest statement of the month.

Lets summarize the PVP we have covered since you seem unable to read and understand what I have said.

Random ganking in low and high of miners and industrialist = lazy scumbag

Ganking miners and industrialists in low and high sec as part of a war, or to strategically hurt THE ENEMY = GREAT! So long as you are at war and fighting the corp PVP as well

Roaming around killing miners and haulers because you are too lazy to go get real combat, = detriment to the economy

Breaching an alliances territory during wartime and attacking their "protected" miners = You are actually being productive

I know for a fact that I was killed by lazy scumbags, because their corp was not at war, they had no fight with me, or my corp.

I still cannot get over this - > by mining you are denying others the minerals... it is all PVP.

How about, by killing miners and haulers YOU are denying others the minerals. What do you think you in your battleship are gonna harvest the rocks, gas, ice, and moons? Not a chance. Without us there would be nothing. WE, the indy, are the only reason you have anything to gank us with, and the only reason you can PVP.

BTW did I mention how fun it would be to go head to head in massive fleets against rival alliances, battling for control of strategic systems, and new places for the hopefully indy part of your corp. This is how eve is supposed to work. This way, everything is a competition. On one side, the war front. On the other, covert ships cutting supply lines in and out of enemy space, on another is the market war. So yeah, EVE is competitive, but if it was meant just for PVP you would think that CCP would of had no reason to add mining barges, or freighters, or really anything else. EVE was created to be a complicated and strategic game. Instead a bunch of barbaric idiots have turned the game into nothing but kills, how many, and how much damage did I just cause to the economy for no reason?

If you think EVE is about PVP you are just plain wrong, and have obviously failed to see all sides of EVE. At this point I am being more understanding than anyone in this thread. I have said PVP can be good, everything can contribute, you dont have to mine, you dont have to ship things. But as a player in the sandbox of eve it is YOUR responsibility to preserve EVE, because there is a breaking point, and I fear we are approaching faster than ever.


SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#32 - 2015-12-11 00:19:45 UTC
Azure Feixing wrote:
In response to all of the above posts:

Gankers and PVP do generate need for product. But at the same time if they are all coming after us the economy cannot grow, and will ultimately wither and die.

If players went to war, and played the game like it was supposed to be, none of this would be happening.


Some players do go to war. Others blow up players like you. Player freedom to choose is integral to Eve.

Frankly, you're looking at it all wrong. Gankers aren't your enemy. Your enemy is other miners. If you can learn to avoid getting ganked, you have a competitive advantage over miners who can't do that.


Quote:
Random ganking in low and high of miners and industrialist = lazy scumbag


Lazy miners and industrialists who get ganked because they didn't take steps to protect themselves and then cry about it on the forums = lazy scumbags. And I say this as an industrialist.

Eve is not a PvP-optional game. You click undock, you consent to PvP. So, play the game accordingly.


"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Chris Kovach
Perkone
Caldari State
#33 - 2015-12-11 00:32:34 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:


Eve is not a PvP-optional game. You click undock, you consent to PvP. So, play the game accordingly.




MIC DROP.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#34 - 2015-12-11 00:34:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Azure Feixing wrote:
How about, by killing miners and haulers YOU are denying others the minerals. What do you think you in your battleship are gonna harvest the rocks, gas, ice, and moons? Not a chance. Without us there would be nothing. WE, the indy, are the only reason you have anything to gank us with, and the only reason you can PVP.

Here's an alternative picture for you:

http://i.imgur.com/haNCwOB.png

The biggest group of pvpers in the game are classified by CCP as the 'professional' players and they do just as much mining and industrial activity as they do pvp.

If the self entitled "we miners are the driving force of the economy" people disappeared, then the same players that shoot you will also create more than they already do. While they are shooting you with one character, they might be building something on another.

In reality, the idea that there are industrialists and pvpers as two distinct groups is ridiculous. Lots of people in the game do lots of different things, both production and destruction focused.

None of us are more important in the overall economy than anyone else and no one is a lazy scumbag for playing the game within the rules. We just don't all conform to a dictatorial view of what is the correct way to play.

The choice that you have to play one way is the same choice that I have to play another and there is nothing wrong with either choice.
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2015-12-11 00:39:21 UTC
Azure Feixing wrote:
Don't hate me, hate those other guys.

Azure Feixing
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2015-12-11 00:41:13 UTC
Quote:
Some players do go to war. Others blow up players like you. Player freedom to choose is integral to Eve.

Frankly, you're looking at it all wrong. Gankers aren't your enemy. Your enemy is other miners. If you can learn to avoid getting ganked, you have a competitive advantage over miners who can't do that.


I am looking at it like I should be. Miners to sell their product to the market. But if that market was controlled soley by their alliance/corp there would be no competition. My corps citizens are buying my ORE, and my alliance is preventing other miners from selling their product here. This is how the corp/alliance/player relationship is supposed to work.

Gankers are the enemy, and they are your enemy. I already described the economical ramifications of gankers. They are leaches. You would have a greater advantage over other players if your corp had a larger area under its control, and therefore more business for you. How do corps gain control of other systems/regions? War. How do ships get produced for the war? Us. The failure on your part to see how the EVE economy does work, can work, and is designed to work it horrifying. Yes, we take stuff to high-sec to sell. If your alliance is strategically preventing the warring alliances miners from selling their products in high-sec than good for you. If the other alliances sov works correctly, they still have COMPLETE monopoly over the market in their regions. Not to mention funding the war effort. So you see the market is multifaced, and the gankers are nothing more than lazy, pathetic, detrimental players who are UNWILLING to play the game. By doing this, they drive the game towards its destruction, while others attempt to do their part in preserving EVE.

Quote:
Eve is not a PvP-optional game. You click undock, you consent to PvP. So, play the game accordingly.


This is not true. When you undock in your alliance protected indy zone, you are protected, you are safe. And unless your alliance is at war, or you have done something to agress someone else, than there is truly no reason to kill you, except if you are a lazy pathetic ganker who has failed at playing the game, and resorted to preying on those who have done nothing.

I get it though, free choice and all that. I am saying that if we do not recognize the ramifications of the actions and playstyles we are adopting, EVE may not survive another 5 years. We have got to figure out how to play the game where it is fun, competitive, and successful. Right now, things are competitive. But I dont consider it very fun, and it seems EVE player base is diminishing. If its not fun to play, and almost impossible to become successful, than people will stop playing.

Quote:
The biggest group of pvpers in the game are classified by CCP as the 'professional' players and they do just as much mining and industrial activity as they do pvp.

If the self entitled "we miners are the driving force of the economy" people disappeared, then the same players that shoot you will also create more than they already do.

In realtity, the idea that there are industrialists and pvpers as two distinct groups is ridiculous. Lots of people in the game do lots of different things, both production and destruction focused.


Yes, players do many different things. But I find this information very hard to believe, because I know that at least some smart people are left in the game. If players were truly double-faced, and truly understood the many sides and markets of EVE, we would not be having this conversation.
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#37 - 2015-12-11 00:41:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Benny Ohu
i don't understand

how is one to recover one's ore which has been erronously placed in another's barge, whose owner refuses to relinquish the misplaced material to its rightful owner, except by shooting the barge
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#38 - 2015-12-11 00:42:17 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Azure Feixing wrote:
How about, by killing miners and haulers YOU are denying others the minerals.



That's exactly why competent miners like gankers. By keeping the lazy slob caste of miners from bringing their minerals to market, the ganker ensures that the mining elite get top dollar for their minerals when they bring their minerals safely to market because they know what they are doing and took pains to avoid getting ganked. ;)

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#39 - 2015-12-11 00:46:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Mephiztopheleze
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Whadaya know, I go to the kill boards and see a silly loss driving this post. RollRoll


That's gotta be worth at least 8 points on the GD Bingo Card?

Azure Feixing wrote:
Pretty sure I covered this topic. Perhaps reading and ANALYZING the whole thread will help.


i've read it. my analysis is as follows:

You flew a hilariously badly fit hauler into Lowsec and got popped by an Orthrus. This gives rise to some pretty basic questions, like, did you or anyone in your corp scout the gate? You supposedly have 26 corpmates you can call upon for these sorts of things.

As to said spectacularly failfit Tayra. You chose to use precisely zero tank and no afterburner, despite a plethora of open slots simply yearning to be filled with these generally useful, ship saving devices.

So, you've made three stupendously bad decisions in quick succession and been given an ISK160m lesson in How To EVE as a result.

I suggest you learn from those mistakes, else you'll them again. Coming onto forums and bleating about nasty, nasty people simply provides delicious, live affirming tears to your killer and all those of us who would have gladly taken that shot at you in the same situation.

EDIT: Notice how even the Loot Fairy said YES!

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura

Azure Feixing
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#40 - 2015-12-11 00:47:46 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Azure Feixing wrote:
Don't hate me, hate those other guys.



I did not say this. Why you try to do this is just ridiculous. Anyone can forge a qoute like this below

Neuntausend wrote:
I enjoy twisting information and not reading the whole thread.


SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Azure Feixing wrote:
How about, by killing miners and haulers YOU are denying others the minerals.



That's exactly why competent miners like gankers. By keeping the lazy slob caste of miners from bringing their minerals to market, the ganker ensures that the mining elite get top dollar for their minerals when they bring their minerals safely to market because they know what they are doing and took pains to avoid getting ganked. ;)


Because you must not have read the rest of the thread. I specifically said that a GOOD WAY to eliminate other miners is through ganking, only when you are at war. Normal gankers do not pick and choose who they shoot. Alliances and corps will. There is an effective way to monopolize the larger markets. Gankers do more harm than good.
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