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NEBULA CHANGES DISCUSSION

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helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#41 - 2015-12-09 20:40:22 UTC  |  Edited by: helana Tsero
CCP Darwin wrote:

Regarding camera field of view, we are looking into whether any changes to our camera system might have unintentionally affected the existing camera's field of view. Nothing to report on this front yet. We did not intentionally change this parameter.

Previously to this patch, the star fields were added on top of the background nebulae. Now, nebulae occlude the star fields behind them to varying degrees. This means that you're able to get a better look at compression artifacts, which have always been present in our nebula textures. We're looking into our options for improving compression for these textures to reduce the artifacts you've pointed out in your screen shots.

Finally, I'm working with one of our art directors, CCP Nag, on optimizing our background starfield to reduce artifacts when zoomed in and sharpen the visual impression of the stars. This work is looking promising and would be a simple change, but as with the nebulae, it requires balancing quality against compression so that we don't kill your video card or deliver something with artifacts that feel worse than what's in game now.

There's no doubt that our new nebula setup has brought certain artifacts and imperfections in our assets to the forefront, but the technological groundwork is sound and we're doing what we can to deliver a higher-quality look for the sky background that addresses the issues you've raised here.



Very glad your looking to fix the blurry starfield / nebula problem. Big smileBig smile

I really dislike the nebula/starfield changes and was actually thinking of unsubbing over it.

Because the nebula/starfield is a big game immersion factor for me. Its surprising how small changes can have such a big impact on game enjoyment

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#42 - 2015-12-09 21:17:10 UTC
@ CCP Darwin

Please make sure you look at W Space too when your fixing the nebula/starfield. The banding and blurry stars is very noticable particlulary in C2s and C5/C6s.

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#43 - 2015-12-10 00:02:24 UTC
welcome to jita!

http://i.imgur.com/8aTzRse.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fLgN09A.png

you can see the banding in the old image, however it was also covered by stars and overall looked nicer. Now it is just so obvious it almost hurts to look at. Still don't think there was an FoV change. Slight change in zoom on the station though, the problems of taking screenshots months apart :<

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#44 - 2015-12-10 02:42:15 UTC
Like it more now just need up in quality to really shine speaking of that i hope that is what you guys do when you talk about stars them self they are too static some shimmering and brightness would be welcome.

combine that with low brightness setting and darkest space minmatar and i can imagine pretty close visuals to dark cold space we look every day in rl.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Kuronaga
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
The Chicken Coop
#45 - 2015-12-10 03:38:30 UTC
Once upon a time, space was black.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#46 - 2015-12-10 09:21:19 UTC
To be fairly honest, the main issue I have with it currently is the level of detail. Areas of "open" space, especially patches of space with both light and dark colors and shades look horribly texture like a really bad attempt at applying anti-aliasing (or, most Minecraft texture packs).

The patches of the starfield where there are seemingly hidden stars don't really bother me too much, given some real photos from various ground-based and space-based satellites have that as well, especially around nebulae. Actually makes sense when you think about it; Nebulae are basically just huge plumes of dust and various ionized gases, so some of that in the right concentrations can block starlight. The only thing I would change here would be to reduce how much of the skybox is being "hidden". Most systems I've been in (seeming Caldari is the worst in this fashion) a bit too many of the stars are playing Houdini.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#47 - 2015-12-10 10:10:15 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:

Most techniques for image compression sacrifice quality in reds and blues to achieve a better overall look for typical real-world scenes. Unfortunately, this isn't very kind to very red images like our Minmatar nebula backgrounds. I'll make sure that we carefully take a look at the impact on Minmatar nebulae as we discuss texture compression going forward.

I'll happily take a small performance hit for high res nebula's and backgrounds, especially minmatar space. Minmatar space is often also very dark relative to the other area's of space for some reason as well which doesn't help.

The reason I'll happily take the small performance hit is because it won't scale with players on grid, it's a one off.
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#48 - 2015-12-10 10:24:39 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

I'll happily take a small performance hit for high res nebula's and backgrounds, especially minmatar space. Minmatar space is often also very dark relative to the other area's of space for some reason as well which doesn't help.

Sometimes, and I'd say in this case, the performance question is less about a typical player taking a small fps hit and more about whether the game is playable at all on the minimum system specifications.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins
Solecist Project
#49 - 2015-12-10 10:27:06 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

I'll happily take a small performance hit for high res nebula's and backgrounds, especially minmatar space. Minmatar space is often also very dark relative to the other area's of space for some reason as well which doesn't help.

Sometimes, and I'd say in this case, the performance question is less about a typical player taking a small fps hit and more about whether the game is playable at all on the minimum system specifications.

But isn't that exactly what the hires textures, combined with DoD, are about?

Those who can, can.
Those who can't don't have to.

My notebook has 2 gigs of vram and the bandwith to make use of it ...

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#50 - 2015-12-10 10:29:56 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:

Sometimes, and I'd say in this case, the performance question is less about a typical player taking a small fps hit and more about whether the game is playable at all on the minimum system specifications.

Ah, ok, that I understand to keep things looking good even for minimum specs.
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
#51 - 2015-12-10 12:52:17 UTC
CCP Darwin is a good dude...if he says he and his team are working on it rest assured that's exactly what's happening. Yes I agree some things look a little wonky and all but look how far Eve has come.

Oderint Dum Metuant
Velarra
#52 - 2015-12-10 16:41:07 UTC
An option to view Eve space without nebulae would be nice. Deep black, stars & celestials.
Solecist Project
#53 - 2015-12-10 16:45:34 UTC
Aralieus wrote:
CCP Darwin is a good dude...if he says he and his team are working on it rest assured that's exactly what's happening. Yes I agree some things look a little wonky and all but look how far Eve has come.


I appreciate his effort, I hope he's not discouraged...
They're all doing amazing work ... :/

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#54 - 2015-12-10 18:04:51 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Darwin
Solecist Project wrote:

I appreciate his effort, I hope he's not discouraged...
They're all doing amazing work ... :/

Not discouraged at all, and thank you for the feedback on these nebula and star field changes.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins
Solecist Project
#55 - 2015-12-10 18:18:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
CCP Darwin wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:

I appreciate his effort, I hope he's not discouraged...
They're all doing amazing work ... :/

Not discouraged at all, and thank you for the feedback on these nebula and star field changes.

:D

btw, the issue is less of an issue if I turn down the brightness to around ... 1/10th. *cough* ^_^

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2015-12-10 19:56:44 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:

I appreciate his effort, I hope he's not discouraged...
They're all doing amazing work ... :/

Not discouraged at all, and thank you for the feedback on these nebula and star field changes.


Indeed, CCP thank you! The new visuals are really nice, engine effects, new ship, etc. The sensible players know that any update can have consequences that are uncontrollable or unintended. You guys do great, thank you!
Velarra
#57 - 2015-12-10 19:57:34 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:

I appreciate his effort, I hope he's not discouraged...
They're all doing amazing work ... :/

Not discouraged at all, and thank you for the feedback on these nebula and star field changes.


Good :) Equally, please note the request for an eve without nebulae isn't intended as a negative slight toward the current artistic efforts your team have been investing time in. As much as an interest in a very pure black space + stars/celestial objects environmental feel in Eve. Sometimes less eye candy, is really more. Smile The pitch black of space, can be its own intoxicating experience as much as it can be with the nebulae.
Seraph Essael
Air
The Initiative.
#58 - 2015-12-10 20:14:48 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
That's interesting, they look better to me, must be a setting, not sure which one.
Possibly a video card driver issue?

This is completely invalid to say, because you don't even know which nebulae you are comparing.

Look at this.
Minmatar.
http://imgur.com/a/Pt8Jw

Toony colours.
Lots of colour banding.
Compression artefacts.

I am so sick, tired and angry of looking at them ...
... seeing how completely broken they are for YEARS now ...
... I feel like causing a shitstorm over this.

What, no dickbutt?

Also OP, mine look pretty still Shocked

Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."
Kuronaga
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
The Chicken Coop
#59 - 2015-12-10 22:46:25 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
CCP Darwin wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

I'll happily take a small performance hit for high res nebula's and backgrounds, especially minmatar space. Minmatar space is often also very dark relative to the other area's of space for some reason as well which doesn't help.

Sometimes, and I'd say in this case, the performance question is less about a typical player taking a small fps hit and more about whether the game is playable at all on the minimum system specifications.

But isn't that exactly what the hires textures, combined with DoD, are about?

Those who can, can.
Those who can't don't have to.

My notebook has 2 gigs of vram and the bandwith to make use of it ...


High res textures?


Oh. You mean the ones that are never coming.
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#60 - 2015-12-10 23:45:06 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Darwin
Kuronaga wrote:
High res textures?


Oh. You mean the ones that are never coming.

Here's the update that I posted on the thread on that topic back in September:

CCP Darwin wrote:
In this instance, it's because we got into doing it, then, looking at the images side-by-side, realized it didn't add much. All of us were surprised at how little a difference it made.

If we make this happen, it's going to be to check a box, not because it adds much to the look of the game.

Never is a long time, but as long as we can find ways to improve the look of the game that we feel provide better value for the time, we'll be doing those things instead.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins