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Minmatar Militia: Directives
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Arrendis
TK Corp
#21 - 2015-12-07 06:15:28 UTC
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
Just going to point this out, that the quickest way to get the Minmatar out of slavery in the Amarr Empire is to stop agitating the situation. Give it time and they'll be freed.


Give it time and the Empire will make more progress in hollowing them out, stripping them of their heritage and self-determination, and crippling them emotionally for a hundred more generations.

Honestly, Alizabeth, if your leaders had any faith at all in their faith, they'd abolish slavery immediately, and switch to voluntary conversion only. If the principles of your belief system aren't strong enough to stand up on their own without imprisonment and brainwashing over generations, without competing ideas forcibly suppressed, then the only value they've got is to maintain the power structure that lets the True Amarr profit from everyone else's efforts.

I don't think you believe they're that weak and empty. I don't think you believe your God is so impotent as to need the abusive compulsion your people practice. But maybe I'm wrong.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#22 - 2015-12-07 07:38:14 UTC
Nauplius wrote:
True Directives for the Minmatar Militia:

Transmit surrender to Amarr Prime.
Dock. Exit pod.
Destroy all ships and personal possessions; send all ISK to the Amarr Militia.
Begin fitting each other with chains and collars.
Begin stuffing each other with Vitoc.
Read Scriptures.
Worship God.
Await the arrival of the slave ships.
Board them peacefully.

How bout no, you crazy Khanid bastard.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#23 - 2015-12-07 13:57:36 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:

****-talk in local
Scream nationalistic nonsense for every little headway gained
Whine about warp-stabbed farmers
Wave electronic phallus at each other

I see our PR department is still working full steam.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Kador Ouryon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2015-12-07 23:05:58 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
Just going to point this out, that the quickest way to get the Minmatar out of slavery in the Amarr Empire is to stop agitating the situation. Give it time and they'll be freed.


Give it time and the Empire will make more progress in hollowing them out, stripping them of their heritage and self-determination, and crippling them emotionally for a hundred more generations.

Honestly, Alizabeth, if your leaders had any faith at all in their faith, they'd abolish slavery immediately, and switch to voluntary conversion only. If the principles of your belief system aren't strong enough to stand up on their own without imprisonment and brainwashing over generations, without competing ideas forcibly suppressed, then the only value they've got is to maintain the power structure that lets the True Amarr profit from everyone else's efforts.

I don't think you believe they're that weak and empty. I don't think you believe your God is so impotent as to need the abusive compulsion your people practice. But maybe I'm wrong.


It's a matter of perspective in some respects.

The Reclamation has always been for the Amarr a means of cultural expression the origins of which lay in a post conflict period of Amarrian history in which the True Amarr ancestors of the modern Amarr found themselves struggling to perceive the will of the ineffable with relation to vast populations of conquered peoples.

In this more moderate age of Emperor's and Empresses perhaps the people of Amarr are coming to understand that the value of their faith does not lie in military conquest but in peaceful export of culture. In time perhaps there will no longer be a need for slaves, but for those who currently endure the practice of generational slavery I feel to abolish the practice without them having reached the end of the path would do them a great discredit.



What fills the soul? Something that guides a lost child back to it's parents arms. Or waves that dye the shores of the heart gold. A blessed breath to nurture life in a land of wheat. Or the path the Sef descend drawn in ash. In the wake of fire.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#25 - 2015-12-08 21:04:55 UTC
Kador Ouryon wrote:
In time perhaps there will no longer be a need for slaves, but for those who currently endure the practice of generational slavery I feel to abolish the practice without them having reached the end of the path would do them a great discredit.


Because really, the worst thing you can do for the victims of continuous, systemic abuse is to stop abusing them and maybe even get them help, right? Not turning them into abusers of others would just be 'a great discredit'....
Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#26 - 2015-12-09 01:02:07 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
Just going to point this out, that the quickest way to get the Minmatar out of slavery in the Amarr Empire is to stop agitating the situation. Give it time and they'll be freed.

Honestly, Alizabeth, if your leaders had any faith at all in their faith, they'd abolish slavery immediately, and switch to voluntary conversion only. If the principles of your belief system aren't strong enough to stand up on their own without imprisonment and brainwashing over generations, without competing ideas forcibly suppressed, then the only value they've got is to maintain the power structure that lets the True Amarr profit from everyone else's efforts.

It's not up to me. And, per my employment agreement with SFRIM, I am unable to comment fully on the issue. However, I stand by my remarks that the fastest way to see the Minmatar currently in the Empire free is to go through the process.

As a former military officer, I can definitely see the benefit of an indoctrination period to help people assimilate into the new culture. There was an island on Ichoriya, where the CalNav did some of it's initial training for the Marines and I was assigned there as a series commander for a year, before all hell broke loose. As the Drill Instructor told the new recruits: "the fastest way off my island is to graduate recruit training." Some of people that get there, don't want to be there and try and either get away (which doesn't work; it's an island) or act out in some fashion, like malingering. We never kick them out, they just get dropped to the appropriate support platoon until they can start training again. None of the support platoons are any fun, either.

A mass emancipation of all the Minmatar currently enslaved in the Empire is an impossibility for a number of reasons. If you really want them freed, the fastest way is for them to complete the process.

Now, if you're going to add in culture, heritage, and other considerations, that is an entirely different matter.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Kador Ouryon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2015-12-09 03:05:42 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Kador Ouryon wrote:
In time perhaps there will no longer be a need for slaves, but for those who currently endure the practice of generational slavery I feel to abolish the practice without them having reached the end of the path would do them a great discredit.


Because really, the worst thing you can do for the victims of continuous, systemic abuse is to stop abusing them and maybe even get them help, right? Not turning them into abusers of others would just be 'a great discredit'....


I won't be able to convince you that it's not the abuse you believe it to be but I do have to somewhat stand with Ms Vea's assessment of the situation. From a practical stand point it is an impossibility to see every slave emancipated in a single sweeping decree.

Moreover certainly one of the most expedient ways to see the emancipation of larger slave populations as well as a relative lack punishment would simply be to allow these slaves to complete the period of indoctrination peacefully. When I spoke of a disservice I spoke perhaps of the previous generations of slave who lived and died as slaves, some begrudgingly, other dutifully all hopeful that their lifetime would be the life time they earned freedom. To simply release them would render their lives meaningless when they have been anything but.

Beyond that I'm not really in a position to comment further as certain opinions might be construed as criticism of those of vastly higher social standing.

What fills the soul? Something that guides a lost child back to it's parents arms. Or waves that dye the shores of the heart gold. A blessed breath to nurture life in a land of wheat. Or the path the Sef descend drawn in ash. In the wake of fire.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2015-12-09 04:15:25 UTC
So, you are saying it has nothing to do with your economy depending on the labour of slaves and that overnight emancipation of all slaves will cripple your agriculture, manufacture and other economic sectors?

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#29 - 2015-12-09 04:55:30 UTC
Kador Ouryon wrote:
I won't be able to convince you that it's not the abuse you believe it to be but I do have to somewhat stand with Ms Vea's assessment of the situation.


No, you won't. Because they've had their very identities, the identities of their children, grandchildren, their culture and heritage all stolen from them while they've been taught to be obedient, meek little broken pawns.

Quote:

Moreover certainly one of the most expedient ways to see the emancipation of larger slave populations as well as a relative lack punishment would simply be to allow these slaves to complete the period of indoctrination peacefully.


Because that worked so well for the first thousand years, right? Freed all those slaves right up.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#30 - 2015-12-09 05:03:20 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Kador Ouryon wrote:
I won't be able to convince you that it's not the abuse you believe it to be but I do have to somewhat stand with Ms Vea's assessment of the situation.


No, you won't. Because they've had their very identities, the identities of their children, grandchildren, their culture and heritage all stolen from them while they've been taught to be obedient, meek little broken pawns.

Quote:

Moreover certainly one of the most expedient ways to see the emancipation of larger slave populations as well as a relative lack punishment would simply be to allow these slaves to complete the period of indoctrination peacefully.


Because that worked so well for the first thousand years, right? Freed all those slaves right up.


Hang on, you can't have it both ways. You can't claim that they're broken reeds, submissive to the whims of their dreadful masters AND point out the fact that they rose en masse and revolted - per definition.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#31 - 2015-12-09 07:35:29 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
I don't think you believe they're that weak and empty. I don't think you believe your God is so impotent as to need the abusive compulsion your people practice. But maybe I'm wrong.


Of course not. I am friends with a great many Minmatar like yourself or Rydis, even Feiryred (who I do not talk religion with at all), and God knows how many I am forgetting this time of night, and I am happy to fly with any of them.

My personal opinion is that the best way for the Amarr faith to spread and continue the Reclaiming is to focus on converts. Again, though, I am not a decision maker in the Empire. I'm not actually an Amarr citizen.

My statement was 100% pragmatic analysis of the fastest, least painful way to see that the Minmatar that are currently slaves in the Empire become emancipated. I would be overjoyed to see this happen

And to answer Elmund Egivand. Of course there's an economic consideration. The economic fallout of a mass migration of trillions of people from the Amarr Empire to the Tribes would be a catastrophe. You can trust me on this; I'm Deteis.

The final truth, going back to the original post, is that nothing the Minmatar Militia can do will result in the mass emancipation of the Minmatar in the Empire. I don't care if they take the whole warzone and own it for ten years (and Arrendis, we all know how feasible that is), nothing is going to change the macro situation of slavery in Amarr. It's best to understand what the MinMil is accomplishing, at best: ensuring that they keep enough of the Amarr Navy occupied to prevent a full out invasion of the Minmatar homeworlds. Yes, I know that there's CONCORD and all, but we've seen what can happen there. If the situation ever arises again where a major power is able to make a move, they have to honor the threat of God knows how many crazy trigger happy combat capsuleers forward deployed near the heart of their realm.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2015-12-09 07:46:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Of course the Militia won't emancipate all Minmatar. The Pendulum War is designed to maintain the status quo and the regions chosen as battlefronts are backwaters left aside as playgrounds for bored, bloodthirsty and greedy capsuleers with more guns and ammunition than humanity. Anyone who thinks that they can make sweeping changes by being in the Militia is a naive and deluded fool and if he is lucky, he will have all of that burned out of their system after a year.

What happens next is up to them.

Any Minmatar Militia who thinks that they can perhaps save a couple of slaves by interdicting slaver convoys are misinformed. Any slaver worth a damn would traffic their ways OUTSIDE the warzones. They are probably better off being actual pirates operating in any lowsec region that isn't set aside as a warzone or as a 'ganker' camping gates along trade routes. Any slaves who are rescued in the warzone are deliberately put there by someone like Nauplius or etc.

Also, any Minmatar who are serious about the mass emancipation programme has to be reminded that the Republic, though it's much better now that it's under the leadership of the Tribal Council, is far from ready for the emancipation of the trillions of slaves. Seriously, look at the infrastructure put in place and the jobs available and tell me that the Minmatar Republic can handle the strain of having 1/3rd of the MInmatar population in the whole cluster flocking into her borders.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Havohej
Cretus Incendium
Electus Matari
#33 - 2015-12-09 08:24:41 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
So, who is masochistic enough to try to herd the cats that call themselves 'militia'?

The truly sad part is that, once, the Tribal militia did have such unifying leadership, such strength of personality at the helm that they managed to enforce organization on the herd.

Strike us like matches, 'cause everyone deserves the flames.

OOC Forums @ Backstage
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2015-12-09 08:36:25 UTC
Havohej wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
So, who is masochistic enough to try to herd the cats that call themselves 'militia'?

The truly sad part is that, once, the Tribal militia did have such unifying leadership, such strength of personality at the helm that they managed to enforce organization on the herd.


I can respect their ability but I do not envy them.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#35 - 2015-12-09 09:45:07 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Of course the Militia won't emancipate all Minmatar. The Pendulum War is designed to maintain the status quo and the regions chosen as battlefronts are backwaters left aside as playgrounds for bored, bloodthirsty and greedy capsuleers with more guns and ammunition than humanity. Anyone who thinks that they can make sweeping changes by being in the Militia is a naive and deluded fool and if he is lucky, he will have all of that burned out of their system after a year.

What happens next is up to them.

Any Minmatar Militia who thinks that they can perhaps save a couple of slaves by interdicting slaver convoys are misinformed. Any slaver worth a damn would traffic their ways OUTSIDE the warzones. They are probably better off being actual pirates operating in any lowsec region that isn't set aside as a warzone or as a 'ganker' camping gates along trade routes. Any slaves who are rescued in the warzone are deliberately put there by someone like Nauplius or etc.

Also, any Minmatar who are serious about the mass emancipation programme has to be reminded that the Republic, though it's much better now that it's under the leadership of the Tribal Council, is far from ready for the emancipation of the trillions of slaves. Seriously, look at the infrastructure put in place and the jobs available and tell me that the Minmatar Republic can handle the strain of having 1/3rd of the MInmatar population in the whole cluster flocking into her borders.


Doing the highest level of Agent work, I have cleared out many Amarr slave breeding centers, and recovered quite a few slaves in the process. It can be tough with the heavy energy neutralization and that the slave transports present will warp off if not dealt with quickly. It is with my deepest sadness that I realize only a small portion of the slaves can actually be recovered on an assault on a breeding facility, but they do indeed put them in the warzone. Not only that, but especially when I report to my agent in Helgatild I found that they frequently put these things in our sovereign space. That is alot of nerve. My point however, is that slaves are in fact in the warzone.

As far as the government and economy goes, it isn't like we are going to miss out on doing the right thing, just because it is inconvenient to us, the Minmatar would find a way, they always have.

Not that I think I am making sweeping changes mind you, but this is something I have within my power to do, so I am going to do this alongside my best efforts to strengthen the Republic's economy and image. The Tribal Liberation Force doesn't limit us, it empowers us.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2015-12-09 10:05:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Have you ever wondered exactly why the slave breeding camps are there in the first place?

As I mentioned, any slaves found in the warzone are put there deliberately. Liberating them won't change much about the conditions of slaves already inside the more secured Amarr borders.

Also, do not forget what happened the last time the late Empress emancipated slaves 9th generations and up and released them into the Republic. Do the right thing if you must, but do not expect all sunshine and rainbows right afterwards because. Expect stormy seas and expect to drown if unprepared.

The Tribal Liberation Fleet's empowerment was never its purpose. You are just as empowered raiding convoys outside the warzone as a non-militia or as a philanthropist working with the SOE, the Arcology or whoever. You are capsuleer. You are *already* empowered. At least to a point.

At least you realised that the Republic's economic engines need more stoking.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#37 - 2015-12-09 17:53:55 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Hang on, you can't have it both ways. You can't claim that they're broken reeds, submissive to the whims of their dreadful masters AND point out the fact that they rose en masse and revolted - per definition.


My point is that they're claiming the process 'isn't done' and 'just needs more time' - they've had time. It clearly didn't have the results they thought it would. And to say at this point 'well, it just needs more time, it'll totally have different results' is ludicrous.
Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#38 - 2015-12-09 19:26:23 UTC
Arrendis, I think it would be correct to say that that Amarr do not consider the sunk cost fallacy where slavery is concerned.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Lunarisse Aspenstar
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#39 - 2015-12-09 20:15:28 UTC
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
Arrendis, I think it would be correct to say that that Amarr do not consider the sunk cost fallacy where slavery is concerned.


More broadly, we do not when it concerns the Reclamation of all of God's children, whether through preaching, word, deed, or slavery.
Kador Ouryon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2015-12-09 20:15:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Kador Ouryon
Arrendis wrote:
Kador Ouryon wrote:
I won't be able to convince you that it's not the abuse you believe it to be but I do have to somewhat stand with Ms Vea's assessment of the situation.


No, you won't. Because they've had their very identities, the identities of their children, grandchildren, their culture and heritage all stolen from them while they've been taught to be obedient, meek little broken pawns.


Perhaps that were the case for those original slaves in the initial few generations. Without delving into the morality and ethics I suppose these newer generations have developed their own sense of culture.

Kador Ouryon wrote:
Moreover certainly one of the most expedient ways to see the emancipation of larger slave populations as well as a relative lack punishment would simply be to allow these slaves to complete the period of indoctrination peacefully.

Arrendis wrote:

Because that worked so well for the first thousand years, right? Freed all those slaves right up.


I can't speak for my people. I'm young.... not particularly wise, and my job revolves around putting machines back together not people. I however want to believe that one day the practice will no longer be required.

What fills the soul? Something that guides a lost child back to it's parents arms. Or waves that dye the shores of the heart gold. A blessed breath to nurture life in a land of wheat. Or the path the Sef descend drawn in ash. In the wake of fire.