These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Citadels] Capital Q&A

First post
Author
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#161 - 2015-12-07 18:18:20 UTC
d0cTeR9 wrote:
Jezza McWaffle wrote:
You do like to whine don't you. What is it CCP have said before, something along the lines of HTFU?


He has a point. Some of us have a few capital and super capital pilots that are being turned into uselessness.

Not a happy camper when months/years are investing and then changed into something completly different.


I am also unsure how some people feel it's their business if SP is reimbursed or not.



These ships aren't being turned into usefulness. I'm not sure why people keep saying this over and over. Just because now you can't bring a swiss army knife to a fight they're suddenly useless? You have to make a meaningful choice of DPS in the form of fighters, heavy gun support (i.e. bigger alpha), or a logistics that doesn't scale in an n+1 fight so that a) fights actually happen because people can still kill something and b) ships will explode. Crazy right, especially given the last few years of dullsec where people just blue balled with the biggest fleet they could muster, but I don't see how these changes do anything to fix that....

I'm excited for these changes and can't wait to lose my Thanny, buy it again, then rinse and repeat.

--------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::-------

d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#162 - 2015-12-07 19:53:08 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:
d0cTeR9 wrote:
Jezza McWaffle wrote:
You do like to whine don't you. What is it CCP have said before, something along the lines of HTFU?


He has a point. Some of us have a few capital and super capital pilots that are being turned into uselessness.

Not a happy camper when months/years are investing and then changed into something completly different.


I am also unsure how some people feel it's their business if SP is reimbursed or not.



These ships aren't being turned into usefulness. I'm not sure why people keep saying this over and over. Just because now you can't bring a swiss army knife to a fight they're suddenly useless? You have to make a meaningful choice of DPS in the form of fighters, heavy gun support (i.e. bigger alpha), or a logistics that doesn't scale in an n+1 fight so that a) fights actually happen because people can still kill something and b) ships will explode. Crazy right, especially given the last few years of dullsec where people just blue balled with the biggest fleet they could muster, but I don't see how these changes do anything to fix that....

I'm excited for these changes and can't wait to lose my Thanny, buy it again, then rinse and repeat.


Come back to me when you have two specialized supercapital alts and 2 specialized logi-carrier alts. Thats a lot of training time and isk used.

We are told to forget about what we use/trained and go use something else, that frankly, is NOT what most of us spent a long time training for.

I really can't understand how people don't understand this... So i'll dumb it down for them: You specialized your character for a command ship/t3 cruiser to be the best off-grid booster you can be. Suddenly the ship(s) you use no longer have that role. You are told to go train for another ship to do this.

Now take that and put it into capital level training, which is VERY long.

Yeah... not a good move. So people asking for SP reimbursement, or even 'what should i be training now' isn't asking for much.

Some of us even have carrier V, capital V, titan V and all the capital support skills maxed out... those are not quick trains. So yeah we are worried about the changes, especially when those changes are forced. Most people are simply asking for another option, just in case, its not what we trained for. CCP even said they might 'convert' existing carriers to those new FAX if a triage module is installed. Thats a pretty good idea tbh.

Been around since the beginning.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#163 - 2015-12-07 22:40:22 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
d0cTeR9 wrote:
Yun Kuai wrote:
d0cTeR9 wrote:
Jezza McWaffle wrote:
You do like to whine don't you. What is it CCP have said before, something along the lines of HTFU?


He has a point. Some of us have a few capital and super capital pilots that are being turned into uselessness.

Not a happy camper when months/years are investing and then changed into something completly different.


I am also unsure how some people feel it's their business if SP is reimbursed or not.



These ships aren't being turned into usefulness. I'm not sure why people keep saying this over and over. Just because now you can't bring a swiss army knife to a fight they're suddenly useless? You have to make a meaningful choice of DPS in the form of fighters, heavy gun support (i.e. bigger alpha), or a logistics that doesn't scale in an n+1 fight so that a) fights actually happen because people can still kill something and b) ships will explode. Crazy right, especially given the last few years of dullsec where people just blue balled with the biggest fleet they could muster, but I don't see how these changes do anything to fix that....

I'm excited for these changes and can't wait to lose my Thanny, buy it again, then rinse and repeat.


Come back to me when you have two specialized supercapital alts and 2 specialized logi-carrier alts. Thats a lot of training time and isk used.

We are told to forget about what we use/trained and go use something else, that frankly, is NOT what most of us spent a long time training for.

I really can't understand how people don't understand this... So i'll dumb it down for them: You specialized your character for a command ship/t3 cruiser to be the best off-grid booster you can be. Suddenly the ship(s) you use no longer have that role. You are told to go train for another ship to do this.

Now take that and put it into capital level training, which is VERY long.

Yeah... not a good move. So people asking for SP reimbursement, or even 'what should i be training now' isn't asking for much.

Some of us even have carrier V, capital V, titan V and all the capital support skills maxed out... those are not quick trains. So yeah we are worried about the changes, especially when those changes are forced. Most people are simply asking for another option, just in case, its not what we trained for. CCP even said they might 'convert' existing carriers to those new FAX if a triage module is installed. Thats a pretty good idea tbh.


I have all that, but I am not complaining. If you, like me, trained Minmatar Carrier V and Tactical Logistics Configuration V, but only ever used them for two POS saves (or not at all), that's your own problem. If you, like me, trained Amarr Titan V and Doomsday V, but only ever killed one Triage Archon and a couple of towers (or nothing at all), that is also your own problem. You had the opportunity to get an advantage from those skills before.

The only time CCP should reimburse skills completely is when they remove those skills from the game (as with learning skills).

If the ships and modules give an advantage in combat, people will adapt or die.

If CCP splits the Carrier skills and gives me equivalent FAX skills, I will take it. That's what? 14 million SP? If they do not, I will simply train to use those ships - especially if it makes it even easier to kill those who refuse to adapt.

As for what to train now, I am polishing off some of those pesky little skills that aren't to V yet, like Capital Energy Emissions V, because I think it may prove very useful for T2 Capital Energy Neutralizers.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Hiljah
Foo Holdings
AL3XAND3R.
#164 - 2015-12-08 05:14:15 UTC
Hound Halfhand wrote:
Hiljah wrote:
The more I read about cap changes, the more I feel like I'd just like to be reimbursed for all cap related things: skills, ships, and modules. Will this be an option? T2 triage and siege seems like an incredible waste now.


I really hope CCP doesn't start reimbursing skill points every time something gets nerfed or changed. Just because it no longer does exactly what it did before is no reason to start allowing mass reallocation of skill points. I also hope they don't start giving out free skill points a la destroyer and battlecrusier changes.


Why? I feel like I've been making payments for something and now they are giving me something else. That is a really bad business practice.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#165 - 2015-12-08 05:43:30 UTC
Hound Halfhand wrote:
I also hope they don't start giving out free skill points a la destroyer and battlecrusier changes.

I hope you realize it's not skillpoints that matter, but applications of skills. Which did not change for anyone during BC/destroyer skill remakes.
Hiljah
Foo Holdings
AL3XAND3R.
#166 - 2015-12-08 06:05:47 UTC
Jezza McWaffle wrote:
You do like to whine don't you. What is it CCP have said before, something along the lines of HTFU?


Did they? What do they say when they make less money?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#167 - 2015-12-08 07:21:35 UTC
Hiljah wrote:
Hound Halfhand wrote:
Hiljah wrote:
The more I read about cap changes, the more I feel like I'd just like to be reimbursed for all cap related things: skills, ships, and modules. Will this be an option? T2 triage and siege seems like an incredible waste now.


I really hope CCP doesn't start reimbursing skill points every time something gets nerfed or changed. Just because it no longer does exactly what it did before is no reason to start allowing mass reallocation of skill points. I also hope they don't start giving out free skill points a la destroyer and battlecrusier changes.


Why? I feel like I've been making payments for something and now they are giving me something else. That is a really bad business practice.

You are paying for access. If you are using money to buy SP then maybe you need to speak to team security...
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#168 - 2015-12-08 09:12:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
FT Diomedes wrote:
d0cTeR9 wrote:
Yun Kuai wrote:
d0cTeR9 wrote:
Jezza McWaffle wrote:
You do like to whine don't you. What is it CCP have said before, something along the lines of HTFU?


He has a point. Some of us have a few capital and super capital pilots that are being turned into uselessness.

Not a happy camper when months/years are investing and then changed into something completly different.


I am also unsure how some people feel it's their business if SP is reimbursed or not.



These ships aren't being turned into usefulness. I'm not sure why people keep saying this over and over. Just because now you can't bring a swiss army knife to a fight they're suddenly useless? You have to make a meaningful choice of DPS in the form of fighters, heavy gun support (i.e. bigger alpha), or a logistics that doesn't scale in an n+1 fight so that a) fights actually happen because people can still kill something and b) ships will explode. Crazy right, especially given the last few years of dullsec where people just blue balled with the biggest fleet they could muster, but I don't see how these changes do anything to fix that....

I'm excited for these changes and can't wait to lose my Thanny, buy it again, then rinse and repeat.


Come back to me when you have two specialized supercapital alts and 2 specialized logi-carrier alts. Thats a lot of training time and isk used.

We are told to forget about what we use/trained and go use something else, that frankly, is NOT what most of us spent a long time training for.

I really can't understand how people don't understand this... So i'll dumb it down for them: You specialized your character for a command ship/t3 cruiser to be the best off-grid booster you can be. Suddenly the ship(s) you use no longer have that role. You are told to go train for another ship to do this.

Now take that and put it into capital level training, which is VERY long.

Yeah... not a good move. So people asking for SP reimbursement, or even 'what should i be training now' isn't asking for much.

Some of us even have carrier V, capital V, titan V and all the capital support skills maxed out... those are not quick trains. So yeah we are worried about the changes, especially when those changes are forced. Most people are simply asking for another option, just in case, its not what we trained for. CCP even said they might 'convert' existing carriers to those new FAX if a triage module is installed. Thats a pretty good idea tbh.


I have all that, but I am not complaining. If you, like me, trained Minmatar Carrier V and Tactical Logistics Configuration V, but only ever used them for two POS saves (or not at all), that's your own problem. If you, like me, trained Amarr Titan V and Doomsday V, but only ever killed one Triage Archon and a couple of towers (or nothing at all), that is also your own problem. You had the opportunity to get an advantage from those skills before.

The only time CCP should reimburse skills completely is when they remove those skills from the game (as with learning skills).

If the ships and modules give an advantage in combat, people will adapt or die.

If CCP splits the Carrier skills and gives me equivalent FAX skills, I will take it. That's what? 14 million SP? If they do not, I will simply train to use those ships - especially if it makes it even easier to kill those who refuse to adapt.

As for what to train now, I am polishing off some of those pesky little skills that aren't to V yet, like Capital Energy Emissions V, because I think it may prove very useful for T2 Capital Energy Neutralizers.
These changes aren't going to change the risk averse nature of capital warfare, if anything much of it encourages risk averse practices - Especially for the big groups.
Why would you bother training for a ship you are likely to never use? (I have an idea why but would like to hear your opinion)

You said yourself you have a max skilled Titan you don't use now, what do you expect to change?

I would like CCP to offer reimbursement so I can put time spent/SP into something i can reasonably expect to use (without the need to become just another blobber).

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Hiljah
Foo Holdings
AL3XAND3R.
#169 - 2015-12-08 18:47:48 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Hiljah wrote:
Hound Halfhand wrote:
Hiljah wrote:
The more I read about cap changes, the more I feel like I'd just like to be reimbursed for all cap related things: skills, ships, and modules. Will this be an option? T2 triage and siege seems like an incredible waste now.


I really hope CCP doesn't start reimbursing skill points every time something gets nerfed or changed. Just because it no longer does exactly what it did before is no reason to start allowing mass reallocation of skill points. I also hope they don't start giving out free skill points a la destroyer and battlecrusier changes.


Why? I feel like I've been making payments for something and now they are giving me something else. That is a really bad business practice.

You are paying for access. If you are using money to buy SP then maybe you need to speak to team security...



You must not be aware of some services CCP offers.
Dollars » PLEX » Isk » Character


If someone told you you can only pay for access, they were assuming you wouldn't be able to follow this complex process.

Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#170 - 2015-12-08 20:06:01 UTC
"I would like CCP to offer reimbursement so I can put time spent/SP into something i can reasonably expect to use (without the need to become just another blobber)."

CCP is working on a mechanism for liquidating skills you no longer feel you need.

Problem solved?

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1

Hiljah
Foo Holdings
AL3XAND3R.
#171 - 2015-12-09 05:00:57 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
"I would like CCP to offer reimbursement so I can put time spent/SP into something i can reasonably expect to use (without the need to become just another blobber)."

CCP is working on a mechanism for liquidating skills you no longer feel you need.

Problem solved?


I thought that this mechanism was for moving skills from old players to new ones. Pilots with over 50k sp would lose the majority of their reallocated skills to the tax this mechanism uses.

It's not like I want to reallocate my mining skills because I don't mine anymore. I want to reallocate skills because they are drastically changing how those skills are used.

A complete skill remap was done in Dust when there was a major change. I think that made a lot of sense and kept a lot of customers from being really upset.

If this change is something like how my vagabond has 18 less cpu or my ishtar had a mid switch to a low, then fine. But it sounds to me like my moros will do less than a third the dps to battleships than it used to and my triage carrier will be nerfed more than that. That's not fine.
d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#172 - 2015-12-09 17:14:37 UTC  |  Edited by: d0cTeR9
FT Diomedes wrote:
d0cTeR9 wrote:
Yun Kuai wrote:
d0cTeR9 wrote:
Jezza McWaffle wrote:
You do like to whine don't you.What is it CCP have said before, something along the lines of HTFU?


He has a point. Some of us have a few capital and super capital pilots that are being turned into uselessness.

Not a happy camper when months/years are investing and then changed into something completly different.


I am also unsure how some people feel it's their business if SP is reimbursed or not.



These ships aren't being turned into usefulness. I'm not sure why people keep saying this over and over. Just because now you can't bring a swiss army knife to a fight they're suddenly useless? You have to make a meaningful choice of DPS in the form of fighters, heavy gun support (i.e. bigger alpha), or a logistics that doesn't scale in an n+1 fight so that a) fights actually happen because people can still kill something and b) ships will explode. Crazy right, especially given the last few years of dullsec where people just blue balled with the biggest fleet they could muster, but I don't see how these changes do anything to fix that....

I'm excited for these changes and can't wait to lose my Thanny, buy it again, then rinse and repeat.


Come back to me when you have two specialized supercapital alts and 2 specialized logi-carrier alts. Thats a lot of training time and isk used.

We are told to forget about what we use/trained and go use something else, that frankly, is NOT what most of us spent a long time training for.

I really can't understand how people don't understand this... So i'll dumb it down for them: You specialized your character for a command ship/t3 cruiser to be the best off-grid booster you can be. Suddenly the ship(s) you use no longer have that role. You are told to go train for another ship to do this.

Now take that and put it into capital level training, which is VERY long.

Yeah... not a good move. So people asking for SP reimbursement, or even 'what should i be training now' isn't asking for much.

Some of us even have carrier V, capital V, titan V and all the capital support skills maxed out... those are not quick trains. So yeah we are worried about the changes, especially when those changes are forced. Most people are simply asking for another option, just in case, its not what we trained for. CCP even said they might 'convert' existing carriers to those new FAX if a triage module is installed. Thats a pretty good idea tbh.


I have all that, but I am not complaining. If you, like me, trained Minmatar Carrier V and Tactical Logistics Configuration V, but only ever used them for two POS saves (or not at all), that's your own problem. If you, like me, trained Amarr Titan V and Doomsday V, but only ever killed one Triage Archon and a couple of towers (or nothing at all), that is also your own problem. You had the opportunity to get an advantage from those skills before.

The only time CCP should reimburse skills completely is when they remove those skills from the game (as with learning skills).

If the ships and modules give an advantage in combat, people will adapt or die.

If CCP splits the Carrier skills and gives me equivalent FAX skills, I will take it. That's what? 14 million SP? If they do not, I will simply train to use those ships - especially if it makes it even easier to kill those who refuse to adapt.

As for what to train now, I am polishing off some of those pesky little skills that aren't to V yet, like Capital Energy Emissions V, because I think it may prove very useful for T2 Capital Energy Neutralizers.


Good for you, but you are the minority as shown in the threads concerning this and how capital/super capital pilots have responded.

Also you ignore a HUGE point: there no adapting when your ship role/stats are completly changed. We are not talking about tweaking specs but a COMPLETE change. It's only normal to give its pilots a chance to recuperate its SP or adapt its SP (start training the new skills in advance) to accommodate the changes. Heck, even swapping triage carriers to FAX.

It's been done numerous times before, this should be the same, if not more, considering the level of SP/time required for capitals/super capitals.

Been around since the beginning.

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#173 - 2015-12-09 18:07:03 UTC
Numerous times before? Oh, do tell
d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#174 - 2015-12-09 18:34:03 UTC  |  Edited by: d0cTeR9
Rowells wrote:
Numerous times before? Oh, do tell


Command ship changes, original super capital changes, learning skills changes, list goes on.

Been around since 2003, seen it all done by CCP. The good and the bad. Which is why it's important for players to express the self, and then do it again.


Jerghul wrote:
"I would like CCP to offer reimbursement so I can put time spent/SP into something i can reasonably expect to use (without the need to become just another blobber)."

CCP is working on a mechanism for liquidating skills you no longer feel you need.

Problem solved?


Not in this case. It would cost billions of isk. Probably 20-30 billion isk to swap the skills.

Been around since the beginning.

Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#175 - 2015-12-09 19:54:05 UTC
d0cTeR9 wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Numerous times before? Oh, do tell


Command ship changes, original super capital changes, learning skills changes, list goes on.

Been around since 2003, seen it all done by CCP. The good and the bad. Which is why it's important for players to express the self, and then do it again.


Jerghul wrote:
"I would like CCP to offer reimbursement so I can put time spent/SP into something i can reasonably expect to use (without the need to become just another blobber)."

CCP is working on a mechanism for liquidating skills you no longer feel you need.

Problem solved?


Not in this case. It would cost billions of isk. Probably 20-30 billion isk to swap the skills.


I don't think I said swap. I said "liquidate" skills you no longer feel you need. Turn into isk. What you do with the isk is up to you :).

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#176 - 2015-12-09 20:08:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
I don't believe any SP was rearranged for command ships or super capitals. The only times I can think of any SP switching around or being refunded, were the learning skills or when server death was extensive.

So "numerous" isn't really the word I would use to describe the pattern. Especially considering there are hundreds of other examples where nothing for compensated for drastic change.

At best you might see battlecruisers 2.0, where it gets split into seperate skills and the "old" one is eliminated.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#177 - 2015-12-09 20:23:01 UTC
Rowells wrote:
I don't believe any SP was rearranged for command ships or super capitals. The only times I can think of any SP switching around or being refunded, were the learning skills or when server death was extensive.

So "numerous" isn't really the word I would use to describe the pattern. Especially considering there are hundreds of other examples where nothing for compensated for drastic change.

At best you might see battlecruisers 2.0, where it gets split into seperate skills and the "old" one is eliminated.


Rowells, as usual, is correct. CCP has never compensated players with SP based on adjustments to a given ship. Despite extensive whining from the players each time changes are announced. See, e.g., the nano nerf, Tracking Titan nerf, Ishtar nerf, etc.

What they have done is stick to a couple of basic principles:

If you could fly it before, you can fly it after. They have done this whenever they changed skill prerequisites. This is what happened with Command Ships.

If a skill gets completely removed, than CCP reimburses those SP, as with the learning skills.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#178 - 2015-12-09 21:53:06 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Rowells wrote:
I don't believe any SP was rearranged for command ships or super capitals. The only times I can think of any SP switching around or being refunded, were the learning skills or when server death was extensive.

So "numerous" isn't really the word I would use to describe the pattern. Especially considering there are hundreds of other examples where nothing for compensated for drastic change.

At best you might see battlecruisers 2.0, where it gets split into seperate skills and the "old" one is eliminated.


Rowells, as usual, is correct. CCP has never compensated players with SP based on adjustments to a given ship. Despite extensive whining from the players each time changes are announced. See, e.g., the nano nerf, Tracking Titan nerf, Ishtar nerf, etc.

What they have done is stick to a couple of basic principles:

If you could fly it before, you can fly it after. They have done this whenever they changed skill prerequisites. This is what happened with Command Ships.

If a skill gets completely removed, than CCP reimburses those SP, as with the learning skills.

You two really do deserve each other, of course FT your wrong and Rowells is just not looking at the issue from the right point of view.
Rowells got closer than you, he at least mentioned one of the times players were given SP due to changes in skill tree, he did however forget, carrier skills are already racial so CCP would be giving equivalent skills for a whole new class of ship.

You just ran off in a direction that is not at all relevant and "try" to make it seem like it is close to the same thing.

When they nerfed the Ishtar - Was every skill you trained to use it still relevant to the ship?

When tracking titans got nerfed - Were the skill sets required to use it still applicable or was the basic function of the ship changed and you had skills that were trained no longer needed to fly a titan?

When they remove all logistics roles from carriers - Will all the skills you trained to fly and use the ship still be relevant, to carriers? Logistics 5, Triage, capital remote reps, capital energy emission systems, all those skills will still be useful while flying the ship (carrier) you trained them for?

This isn't a simple change to the skill tree or a reduction in tracking - These skill sets are being completely removed from the ship classes they were trained for. So your saying CCP should give every capital pilot who can use capital remote modules the equivalent skills to fly the brand new class of ship being released. 4 new ships, hundreds of thousands of characters already have the prerequisites for, so should be able to fly them at the time of release.
"If you could fly it before you could fly it after", so, If you had the skill to use something before you should still be able to use it after.
That is a lot of SP CCP would be handing out

That is a lot of skill point bloat when handed out to every player who has carrier logistics skills trained.

Or they could avoid more SP bloat by turning capital logistics skills into unallocated SP.
What is happening is the same as when Destroyer and Battle cruiser skills were made racial, 1 skill to 5 gave you 4 skills to 5 (CCP handed out SP). Two skills gave access to 4 ships in each class - Capital remote skills do the same, but giving everyone the same skill to fly 4 racial Fax, is a little over the top.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#179 - 2015-12-09 22:29:53 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
You can still use the capital remote repair skills on the new Fleet Auxiliary Ships. Therefore those skills are not being removed from the game. Consequently, they should not be reimbursed.

Some other analogies... My Moros used to be able to use Drones. It was unique among Dreadnoughts for that ability. Assume that I spent months building a Moros pilot and trained all those Drone skills. Then one day CCP says, "the Moros is overpowered. We are taking away the Drone bay." All those skills are now worthless for the Moros. And yet CCP did not reimburse all those Drone skills to Moros pilots, because they can still use them on another ship(s).

The same thing happened when all the Titans lost their drone bays. My Titan pilot has millions of "useless" SP in Drone skills. No reimbursement for those skills. And it is not like he can [currently] dock up and jump into an Armageddon if I really want to use those SP.

Or another example, the Naglfar used to be able to fit capital missiles. Then one day, it could not. CCP did not refund all those missile SP. The Naglfar pilot was free to cross train to a Phoenix if he wanted to use them.

So, since CCP did not reimburse those SP, why should Carriers be treated differently? They should not.

They should simply create a new set of ships, with a new set of skills, and let people train them. Just as they have done every other time they created a new ship class. Inside of two months dedicated people will have cross trained from Racial Carrier V to Racial Fleet Auxiliary V. Everyone who trains Racial Fax I can make use of all those "useless" SP.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#180 - 2015-12-09 23:59:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Sgt Ocker wrote:

You two really do deserve each other, of course FT your wrong and Rowells is just not looking at the issue from the right point of view.
Rowells got closer than you, he at least mentioned one of the times players were given SP due to changes in skill tree, he did however forget, carrier skills are already racial so CCP would be giving equivalent skills for a whole new class of ship.

You just ran off in a direction that is not at all relevant and "try" to make it seem like it is close to the same thing.

When they nerfed the Ishtar - Was every skill you trained to use it still relevant to the ship?

When tracking titans got nerfed - Were the skill sets required to use it still applicable or was the basic function of the ship changed and you had skills that were trained no longer needed to fly a titan?

When they remove all logistics roles from carriers - Will all the skills you trained to fly and use the ship still be relevant, to carriers? Logistics 5, Triage, capital remote reps, capital energy emission systems, all those skills will still be useful while flying the ship (carrier) you trained them for?

This isn't a simple change to the skill tree or a reduction in tracking - These skill sets are being completely removed from the ship classes they were trained for. So your saying CCP should give every capital pilot who can use capital remote modules the equivalent skills to fly the brand new class of ship being released. 4 new ships, hundreds of thousands of characters already have the prerequisites for, so should be able to fly them at the time of release.
"If you could fly it before you could fly it after", so, If you had the skill to use something before you should still be able to use it after.
That is a lot of SP CCP would be handing out

That is a lot of skill point bloat when handed out to every player who has carrier logistics skills trained.

Or they could avoid more SP bloat by turning capital logistics skills into unallocated SP.
What is happening is the same as when Destroyer and Battle cruiser skills were made racial, 1 skill to 5 gave you 4 skills to 5 (CCP handed out SP). Two skills gave access to 4 ships in each class - Capital remote skills do the same, but giving everyone the same skill to fly 4 racial Fax, is a little over the top.

SP bloat is only an issue when you don't have the skills. more classes being split and more SP to train creates a longer road from start to finish. With the removal of clone costs, a character does not have to worry about having 50mil SP vs 100mil SP assuming the two are equal in relative usage.

Its less of an addition of an entirely different class, more of an addition to an existing class (and then the subsequent seperation: that argument is semantical). Sort of like the Tier3 battlecruiser introduction. A whole new ship that people had already maxed out on. Or (if i recall my history correctly) similar to super carrier skill tree direction. Uses the same skill as a normal carrier, for a different purpose. The bloat will mostly be felt by the pervailing assumptions of what certain levels of SP mean. "I have 50mil SP, has a bit of a different cannotation than it did back in 2003. And honestly, if CCP is in this game for the long-haul, it will be unnavoidable. Hard to keep that excitement and awe in players when the blocks are always the same.

I really do believe that they will simply give you the equivalent racial skill for the new FAX rather than having fresh set of SP to train on anything completely unrelated. Gallente Carrier IV will get you Gallente FAX IV and so on.

On the other hand, they could easily add them like bowheads, and no skills you had would allow you to fly it right away. However, I do see some desire fro the devs to make this transition more smooth and less abrubt than simply stopping all triage capabilities for a few days/weeks while everyone trains to do it. So, I'll lean my guesses more in that favor.

The real key here is not that the are removing a role per se, but a module. The only ship that can use triage is the carrier, and removing it from the character is just short of actually deleting it from the database in terms of usability. If CCP were to only add a new FAX skill which you had to train, it would suck, but not entirely too bad (unless you trained carrier to V and expected V in FAX).

And I am somewhat unfovarable towards the argument that if a ship no longer needs a certain skill, you should get it back, with the caveat that the skill can still be used elsewhere. It definitely hurts more for people who use supers (seeing as a flying coffin was never fun to begin with), but with citadels coming out at the same time, the time between not being able to use RR skills on your coffin and being able to leave that coffin will be relatively short. So long as CCP continues down the path of removing the necessity of sitting in the coffin (maybe to almost complete removal at some point), then the argument of the flexibility of that character will lose its strength.

TL;DR there are precedents leaning mostly one way, and counterexamples leaning in wuite another, so it will mostly depend on how the siotuation is finally interpreted by the man in charge.

offtopic: did they ever confirm/deny if supers would be able to get insurance now?