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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Investigation on D-ston, Report

Author
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#41 - 2012-01-08 13:01:54 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
The PIE directorate will study this report and its recommendations.


PIE Inc now publishes its reports and recommendations in public before actually studying them ?

Caellach Marellus wrote:
Thgil Goldcore wrote:
Also, I find it amusing that those who are most against this also are the people who are likely receiving weapons or crew from these people.


Then hear it from a neutral point of view. You're being an idiot and digging your hole further.

Thgil Goldcore wrote:
As laid out prior, and apparently ignored. The mere idea of having hostile forces take part of the investigation is absurd.


It's not absurd they spectate, you just don't like it. Huge difference there, and you've failed to give any logical reason as to why it'd be so crazy a notion.


This is my opinion too. Ms Goldcore, you can also hear it from a neutral point of view that served Amarr before. Even if I were in the shoes of the Disciples of Ston and I would have gladly accepted the inquiry to prove the opponent wrong (and all the conciliation PR that would ensue), it would appear that you should really stop the blunder when you still can.
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#42 - 2012-01-08 19:03:39 UTC
I do not know about PIE pilots abandoning people in space.

I do however know that many of the names on the list here, were Minmatar.

And several, enough for it to be noticeable, are none other that Tribal Liberation Force pilots.

TLF throwing slaves overboard, being worse than those they claim to fight. Amusing.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#43 - 2012-01-08 19:19:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Rodj Blake
Manwe Todako wrote:
OK, I'll try to be as clear as I can. The information about where former slaves came from comes from the following sources.

1. Former slave testimonies
2. Other pilots who have transported rescued former slaves to us

We only have the word of others to go by. I am sorry if I was unclear about that. Anyone can check the names of the pilots we list on the Wall of Shame. I do not know if any of them are members of PIE. Below is also a list of pilot name given to us by another Capsuleer who has been active in rescuing former slaves. Feel free to look them up. Again, look at Captain Blake's orignal post and note that his concern is not in investigating his own people but trying to return their slaves to them.

[list of names]


So you decided to allege that PIE officers had been abandoning slaves to their deaths without first checking your facts? I think that you owe every single member of PIE a public apology for your false and egregious accusation.

Also, I still want to see a full manifest of all slaves received by your corporation produced by you in the interests of transparency. Where slaves have been handed to you by another capsuleer, that capsuleer should be named, so that what you claim can be verified.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Manwe Todako
Disciples of Ston
#44 - 2012-01-08 19:31:43 UTC
Pilots who illegally purchase slaves illegally sold to them by holders to be illegally transported and sold outside of Amarr space do not keep cargo manifests.

We will provide no information other than what we have provided on the Wall of Shame. Speaking of that, you might want to check this out, concerning the 24th Imperial Crusade,

SANKOFA

Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#45 - 2012-01-08 19:58:09 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Manwe Todako wrote:
OK, I'll try to be as clear as I can. The information about where former slaves came from comes from the following sources.

1. Former slave testimonies
2. Other pilots who have transported rescued former slaves to us

We only have the word of others to go by. I am sorry if I was unclear about that. Anyone can check the names of the pilots we list on the Wall of Shame. I do not know if any of them are members of PIE. Below is also a list of pilot name given to us by another Capsuleer who has been active in rescuing former slaves. Feel free to look them up. Again, look at Captain Blake's orignal post and note that his concern is not in investigating his own people but trying to return their slaves to them.

[list of names]


So you decided to allege that PIE officers had been abandoning slaves to their deaths without first checking your facts? I think that you owe every single member of PIE a public apology for your false and egregious accusation.

Also, I still want to see a full manifest of all slaves received by your corporation produced by you in the interests of transparency. Where slaves have been handed to you by another capsuleer, that capsuleer should be named, so that what you claim can be verified.


After PIE apologizes for publically slandering a humanitarian organization and trying to bully it into compliance with a mostly-illegal inspection.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#46 - 2012-01-08 20:20:20 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
So you decided to allege that PIE officers had been abandoning slaves to their deaths without first checking your facts? I think that you owe every single member of PIE a public apology for your false and egregious accusation.


I believe an apology was made when I highlighted this issue earlier.

However for slaves handled outside of your corporation, I would question to what business it is of yours. PIE Inc are still demanding an extreme amount here on multiple fronts, and offering nothing in exchange for compliance. Your subordinate may be new to negotiations Admiral but I know you're better than this.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#47 - 2012-01-08 21:09:19 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
I do however know that many of the names on the list here, were Minmatar.
In such a list of random capsuleers, those people who are treated like gods and have little respect for life of non-capsuleers, I wouldn't be surprised at all. How many would I expect? I don't know, 25%, as per 4 races? A bit lower maybe, 20%?

In that list of 171 names, there are 56 Amarr, 53 Caldari, 36 Gallente and 26 Minmatar. So 15% is now "many of them".

Quote:
And several, enough for it to be noticeable, are none other that Tribal Liberation Force pilots.
Considering the militia recruit pretty much everyone, I wouldn't be surprised about this, really. Especially as we had just recently here on IGS a rather public exposure of one of the many Amarrian spies in the TLF.

In that list of 171 names, there is exactly one (1) member of the Tribal Liberation Force corporation. There is another one (1) of another Minmatar Militia corporation. So 2 is now "several".

Let me take a wild guess. You didn't actually check anything - you just made something up on the spot to score some petty propaganda points on IGS?
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#48 - 2012-01-08 21:26:52 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Let me take a wild guess. You didn't actually check anything - you just made something up on the spot to score some petty propaganda points on IGS?


Well, nope, I did not make it up.

Consider current employment of those pilots vs their employment at the time when they were observed throwing slaves overboard. At the time those names were recorded, there were more than two names that were in the tribal liberation force.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#49 - 2012-01-08 21:47:08 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
Well, nope, I did not make it up.
That's good to hear. Why don't you provide actual numbers?
Diana Kim
Kenshin Katana.
United Caldari Space Command.
#50 - 2012-01-08 21:48:19 UTC
Manwe Todako wrote:

Perhaps we have been unclear about our Matriculation program. When we say "Matriculation Program" that is short for "Emancipation and Matriculation Program." You will see this if you research the beginning announcement of the opening of our first Center. We rescue "former slaves" wherever they may be found and from whomever.

The Disciples of Ston unequivocally state that NO ONE IS THE RIGHTFUL OWNER OF ANOTHER HUMAN BEING period! When we rescue and emancipate these individuals we ARE returning them to their rightful owners, THEMSELVES!

Now, as of yet, we have not directly rescued any former slaves from battlefields, but we hope to do so in the future. We have received rescued slaves from other pilots who have done so, and we have receive testimony from rescued slaves of their work on board battle vessels.

In answer to your demands to provide detailed information on the former slaves we have rescued, the answer is NO. We will die and our spirits will return to the Maker before we ever allow those we rescue to return to slavery.


You said, that you rescue them wherever they may be found. However, you must understand, that taking slaves form 'wherever' IF they are still someone's property, and that someone DIDN'T give you permission to take these slaves, is considered a THEFT. Even if you take them in territories where slaves are illegal cargo, this is still a THEFT.

From my point of view, theft is one of the most severe and dirtiest forms of crime. Thieves took others property, who worked hard to acquire it, and thieves don't have balls to fight owners like pirates do. I think that all thieves deserve capital punishment wherever they are detected, and I am ready to put an end to them even if I violate law myself by doing it.

If you in fact have any slaves, that you took from PIE and they are requesting to return them, you MUST compensate. Even if you gave slaves to their 'rightful owner' (freed), you still took some property from their previous owner, that you MUST return. If you can't return slaves, then pay their EXACT average market price or pay with other goods of equal value if previous owner will accept these goods as payment.

Even if you didn't steal yourself, but merely accepted stolen property from someone else, you MUST compensate it for previous owner, by either returning stolen goods or paying with money/other goods.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#51 - 2012-01-08 21:57:47 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Manwe Todako wrote:

Perhaps we have been unclear about our Matriculation program. When we say "Matriculation Program" that is short for "Emancipation and Matriculation Program." You will see this if you research the beginning announcement of the opening of our first Center. We rescue "former slaves" wherever they may be found and from whomever.

The Disciples of Ston unequivocally state that NO ONE IS THE RIGHTFUL OWNER OF ANOTHER HUMAN BEING period! When we rescue and emancipate these individuals we ARE returning them to their rightful owners, THEMSELVES!

Now, as of yet, we have not directly rescued any former slaves from battlefields, but we hope to do so in the future. We have received rescued slaves from other pilots who have done so, and we have receive testimony from rescued slaves of their work on board battle vessels.

In answer to your demands to provide detailed information on the former slaves we have rescued, the answer is NO. We will die and our spirits will return to the Maker before we ever allow those we rescue to return to slavery.


You said, that you rescue them wherever they may be found. However, you must understand, that taking slaves form 'wherever' IF they are still someone's property, and that someone DIDN'T give you permission to take these slaves, is considered a THEFT. Even if you take them in territories where slaves are illegal cargo, this is still a THEFT.

From my point of view, theft is one of the most severe and dirtiest forms of crime. Thieves took others property, who worked hard to acquire it, and thieves don't have balls to fight owners like pirates do. I think that all thieves deserve capital punishment wherever they are detected, and I am ready to put an end to them even if I violate law myself by doing it.

If you in fact have any slaves, that you took from PIE and they are requesting to return them, you MUST compensate. Even if you gave slaves to their 'rightful owner' (freed), you still took some property from their previous owner, that you MUST return. If you can't return slaves, then pay their EXACT average market price or pay with other goods of equal value if previous owner will accept these goods as payment.

Even if you didn't steal yourself, but merely accepted stolen property from someone else, you MUST compensate it for previous owner, by either returning stolen goods or paying with money/other goods.


Interesting allegation. Do you have proof that these containers were infact left as owned property as opposed to the pilots declaring them legally abandoned and free for all?

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Manwe Todako
Disciples of Ston
#52 - 2012-01-08 22:13:04 UTC
Captain Kim has accused the Disciples of Ston of theft. Guilty as charged. The majority of the death cans from which we rescue people are yellow and the contents legally owned by those we list on the wall of shame. In fact, we most often note when the can was blue to indicate that the pilot wished the people to be perhaps rescued. Captain Kim would like to see us dead. We have been destroyed often and podded quite a few times too. I noted your fondness of capitalizing THEFT. If it makes you feel any better here goes. The Disciples of Ston are THIEVES THIEVES THIEVES THIEVES! Yep, we steal former slaves from death cans, rescuing them from death and emancipating them. As Ston used to be so fond of saying in the beginning days "I am a Thief."

SANKOFA

Diana Kim
Kenshin Katana.
United Caldari Space Command.
#53 - 2012-01-08 22:27:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Diana Kim
Caellach Marellus, you are looking in wrong direction. If you need to find out, was it stealing or not, you should ask DSTON and can owners.

((edit to note whom this is addressed to))

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
Kenshin Katana.
United Caldari Space Command.
#54 - 2012-01-08 22:29:56 UTC
Manwe Todako wrote:
Captain Kim has accused the Disciples of Ston of theft. Guilty as charged. The majority of the death cans from which we rescue people are yellow and the contents legally owned by those we list on the wall of shame. In fact, we most often note when the can was blue to indicate that the pilot wished the people to be perhaps rescued. Captain Kim would like to see us dead. We have been destroyed often and podded quite a few times too. I noted your fondness of capitalizing THEFT. If it makes you feel any better here goes. The Disciples of Ston are THIEVES THIEVES THIEVES THIEVES! Yep, we steal former slaves from death cans, rescuing them from death and emancipating them. As Ston used to be so fond of saying in the beginning days "I am a Thief."


So, you are destroyed often and podded. Well, it's a fitting end for a thief.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#55 - 2012-01-08 22:43:52 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Valerie Valate wrote:
Well, nope, I did not make it up.
That's good to hear. Why don't you provide actual numbers?


Because the actual numbers aren't in my possession. They're in the possession of my corpmate, "Ritual Sacrifice", who obtained them from her own logs, and also information seized from the Evil space nun Darina Rea, when Ritual Sacrifice visited them on a diplomatic errand.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#56 - 2012-01-08 22:51:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Arkady Sadik
Valerie Valate wrote:
Because the actual numbers aren't in my possession. They're in the possession of my corpmate, "Ritual Sacrifice", who obtained them from her own logs, and also information seized from the Evil space nun Darina Rea, when Ritual Sacrifice visited them on a diplomatic errand.
Let me help you out.

All you have is a rough gut feeling that back when someone checked those pilots, "a lot" of them were something or another. Nothing more.

All you did was try to make a cheap propaganda post.

And you know what's the most ridiculous part of it? What you said would not have been surprising at all, and you still got it wrong.
Manwe Todako
Disciples of Ston
#57 - 2012-01-08 23:36:31 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:


So, you are destroyed often and podded. Well, it's a fitting end for a thief.


We gladly give up our lives to rescue these people and will continue to do so as long as the evil of institutionalized slavery exists.

SANKOFA

Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#58 - 2012-01-08 23:59:44 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
cheap propaganda post.


When there are so many opportunities to poke fun at people, it is inevitable that cheap materials are used on occasion.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#59 - 2012-01-14 22:19:01 UTC
Seven days have passed, and the Disciples of Ston have completely failed to co-operate with my perfectly reasonable request.

Disciples of Ston pilots are hereby advised that PIE officers are now authorised to fire upon their vessels.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#60 - 2012-01-14 23:58:46 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Seven days have passed, and the Disciples of Ston have completely failed to co-operate with my perfectly reasonable request.

Disciples of Ston pilots are hereby advised that PIE officers are now authorised to fire upon their vessels.


Has there been a formal CONCORD wardec, or will this be more of a "lowsec" sort of affair?


Sabik now, Sabik forever