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[Focus Group] Tactical Destroyers

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Author
SaB0TaG3
TYR.
Exodus.
#221 - 2015-11-24 13:01:17 UTC  |  Edited by: SaB0TaG3
If you want to fix T3Ds without them completely overpowering the meta like they currently do, I would suggest changing the following:

- Take away the scan res bonus from sharpshooter mode. T3D gatecamps (especially arti svipul) are extremely oppressive. Not even frigs can get past. Otherwise, the scan res effects are negligible. If the point was to make them a gate camping ship, it succeeded.

- Reduce the sig radius reduction to 33% per level instead of 66%. The resist bonus is way more than enough to make the T3Ds tanky. They don't need to also not be able to be hit well by the ships that should be killing them (cruisers).

- Mode switching: Maybe only allow them to switch modes if they haven't used an agressive mod in a certain amount of time, or make the mode switch timer longer.

- PG is a little too high on the svipul, oversized AB, and double extended ships should not still be able to use the largest guns imo. There's no sacrifice to be made while fitting.

- When you jump through a gate and start off in speed mode, then start aligning and switch modes, you pretty much instawarp. Not sure if this was intended, but on top of all the other things that make T3Ds op, this also makes them mostly invulnerable on gates. Messing with the conditions for mode switch might fix this.
RcTamiya
Magister Mortalis.
#222 - 2015-11-24 13:03:45 UTC
Please keep in mind, that RR-T3Ds are something people like and use ... don't ruin them too ;)
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#223 - 2015-11-25 04:00:47 UTC
SaB0TaG3 wrote:
If you want to fix T3Ds without them completely overpowering the meta like they currently do, I would suggest changing the following:

- Take away the scan res bonus from sharpshooter mode. T3D gatecamps (especially arti svipul) are extremely oppressive. Not even frigs can get past. Otherwise, the scan res effects are negligible. If the point was to make them a gate camping ship, it succeeded.

- Reduce the sig radius reduction to 33% per level instead of 66%. The resist bonus is way more than enough to make the T3Ds tanky. They don't need to also not be able to be hit well by the ships that should be killing them (cruisers).

- Mode switching: Maybe only allow them to switch modes if they haven't used an agressive mod in a certain amount of time, or make the mode switch timer longer.

- PG is a little too high on the svipul, oversized AB, and double extended ships should not still be able to use the largest guns imo. There's no sacrifice to be made while fitting.

- When you jump through a gate and start off in speed mode, then start aligning and switch modes, you pretty much instawarp. Not sure if this was intended, but on top of all the other things that make T3Ds op, this also makes them mostly invulnerable on gates. Messing with the conditions for mode switch might fix this.


I agree with all this except for the mode switching. I don't believe Increasing the time between switches is the way to go. Make the modes more desirable to use so people actuallly switch. But everything lose is spot on.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#224 - 2015-11-25 14:33:06 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
You'd think that ships thought up and introduced by 2 pvpers, turned devs, shouldn't result in such a mess that it requires a focus group to try and fix it.


Making a class that has tools for close to any situation is generally a surefire way of making an OP class. It happened in other games too.
Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#225 - 2015-11-25 14:54:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Soltys
SaB0TaG3 wrote:


- PG is a little too high on the svipul, oversized AB, and double extended ships should not still be able to use the largest guns imo. There's no sacrifice to be made while fitting.



Ability to fit oversized prop modules shouldn't exist at all IMHO, whether it's about svipul or any other ship in the game. Either soft (e.g. 90% penalty to the effectivness of the module) or hard (cannot fit, period).

Otherwise the remaining approach is to nerf PG, which indirectly inhibits other sensible fits - only for the sake of avoiding oversized prop modules.

Mass*agility adjustments aren't exactly amazing idea either, as they also (negatively) influence all other stuff that involves mass addition.

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl

Estella Osoka
Perkone
Caldari State
#226 - 2015-11-25 20:33:58 UTC
Soltys wrote:
SaB0TaG3 wrote:


- PG is a little too high on the svipul, oversized AB, and double extended ships should not still be able to use the largest guns imo. There's no sacrifice to be made while fitting.



Ability to fit oversized prop modules shouldn't exist at all IMHO, whether it's about svipul or any other ship in the game. Either soft (e.g. 90% penalty to the effectivness of the module) or hard (cannot fit, period).

Otherwise the remaining approach is to nerf PG, which indirectly inhibits other sensible fits - only for the sake of avoiding oversized prop modules.

Mass*agility adjustments aren't exactly amazing idea either, as they also (negatively) influence all other stuff that involves mass addition.


I kind of agree with this. Make the T3Ds unable to use a cruiser size AB. Then see how they do.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#227 - 2015-11-26 12:42:16 UTC
Soltys wrote:
....some blurrbhh-....


Translation:

Mah Ibis can't kill a boat that is 2x the size of an Ibis, fully mean, make nurf nao!!

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#228 - 2015-11-26 14:13:09 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Soltys wrote:
....some blurrbhh-....


Translation:

Mah Ibis can't kill a boat that is 2x the size of an Ibis, fully mean, make nurf nao!!


Translation : Don't nerf me bro!
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#229 - 2015-11-26 15:52:26 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Soltys wrote:
SaB0TaG3 wrote:


- PG is a little too high on the svipul, oversized AB, and double extended ships should not still be able to use the largest guns imo. There's no sacrifice to be made while fitting.



Ability to fit oversized prop modules shouldn't exist at all IMHO, whether it's about svipul or any other ship in the game. Either soft (e.g. 90% penalty to the effectivness of the module) or hard (cannot fit, period).

Otherwise the remaining approach is to nerf PG, which indirectly inhibits other sensible fits - only for the sake of avoiding oversized prop modules.

Mass*agility adjustments aren't exactly amazing idea either, as they also (negatively) influence all other stuff that involves mass addition.


I kind of agree with this. Make the T3Ds unable to use a cruiser size AB. Then see how they do.


Making propulsion modules size-specific would fix the problems with a lot of ships.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#230 - 2015-11-26 22:41:43 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Making propulsion modules size-specific would fix the problems with a lot of ships.


It's an easy, obvious and elegant solution to many of the problems indeed so it probably won't happen because folks who thought that Mordu and T3D was a good idea don't recognise a good idea when they see one. Or a bad one at that.
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#231 - 2015-12-02 06:31:22 UTC
SaB0TaG3 wrote:
PG is a little too high on the svipul, oversized AB, and double extended ships should not still be able to use the largest guns imo. There's no sacrifice to be made while fitting.
Oversized AB, Double medium extender and largest ACs don't all fit. Oversized AB uses MASB not extenders and can't fit the largest guns without gimping the fit. Double extender fits use mwd.

The issue isn't oversized ABs IMO, it's mostly just speed mode. Even a scrammed MWD Svipul gets enough base speed boost from speed mode to control range/tracking in fights.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#232 - 2015-12-06 20:37:16 UTC
so are svipuls still going unnerfed? what's going on with this?
Feyrin
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#233 - 2015-12-07 13:54:05 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
so are svipuls still going unnerfed? what's going on with this?


There aren't any changes slated for the 8th of december. So no immediate nerfs on the horizon.

I have to say I had pretty high hopes for the idea of focus groups as a great way to cut away some of the chaff and mean that CCP devs didn't have to wade through 150 pages of speculation and rabble rousing to get to the valuable feedback. However the complete lack of any engagement with the wider community since this focus group went live is totally the wrong way to go about it. Tell us what is going on we just want to help!
strangescript
Solus Ventures
#234 - 2015-12-11 18:47:35 UTC
The mode system is kind of OP in general. You never know what you are facing when fighting them and simple click drastically changes what the ship is capable of in PVP. How you do you logically plan strategy around that?

The whole assault frigate argument doesn't really hold much weight either. T3 Desties are a ship size and tech level higher. They will of course eliminate the role AF's filled. (I don't like it either but I am not sure what people expected) Not to mention AF's have been struggle to fill a role for years anyway.

When I first saw these things I immediately thought that they looked OP as hell. I now have a sub, and have been training for a confessor ever since. My luck they will get nerfed by the time I can fly one well.
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#235 - 2015-12-14 01:09:29 UTC
So no nerfs with the new T2 logi frigates. Great, now Svipuls are even more OP. Confessors too. I'm not sure what CCP was expecting when they released T3Ds. AFs are 100% obsolete. Most frigates are. T3Ds go as fast as frigates, turn as fast, can insta-warp, tank better, hit harder, just as small sig(with the exception of the Jackdaw. Caldari aren't allowed to have anything nice), and just utterly replace frigates in general. T3Ds can solo cruiser sized ships with ease. They all need to be gutted, but the Svipul and the Confessor need the most nerfing. We're going the complete wrong way in terms of balance. More power to the already highly preferred smaller ship classes while the larger subcaps continue to be ignored.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#236 - 2015-12-14 22:55:11 UTC
May have been suggested already, but here's what I think: Assault Frigs could use a little speed. A T2 Rifter isn't supposed to be slower than a T1 Rifter -- it's supposed to be BETTER.

The Svipul - and only the Svipul - could use some toning down on the sensor strength and speed bonus in propulsion mode.

How do I figure? I fly Confessors, Jackdaws and Svipuls (haven't flown the Hecate because Gallente) - and the Svipul in propulsion mode matches the speed on assault frigs easily (it's the only T3D that goes well over a 1000 m/sec faster than the others!). Similarly, the Svipul in sharpshooter mode gets considerably better lockspeed than the others I've handled.

One would assume assault frigates, being smaller, target stuff faster. Because that's usually how it goes in EvE. The Svipul is an exception here.

One would assume destroyers are on-par with cruisers speeds and somewhat slower than assault frigs. Again, the Svipul is an exception.

I'm not talking the Big Bang here -- just a minor tweak (say, +8 m/sec on all assault frig) and a minor adjustment on the Svipul's Propmode / Sharpshooter bonusses would do the trick I think. The bonus on tracking speed is excellent; the scanres bonus is ... too much of a good thing. A Svipul in Defensive or Sharpshooter mode moves just fine; yet in Propulsion mode it could use less raw speed. Or, if top speed remains the way it is (to allow the ship to remain "different"), then gimp its agility (the exact opposite of the Jackdaw's Propmode).
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#237 - 2015-12-16 18:55:29 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
... A T2 Rifter isn't supposed to be slower than a T1 Rifter -- it's supposed to be BETTER....


That premise is plain wrong. A tech2 is supposed to be different, not better.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#238 - 2015-12-16 19:24:17 UTC
While I do agree with your statement, I feel assault frigates need a little "something" to give them an edge. They ought to be different, "specialised", yes? Well then ... what exactly are they specialised in? I always assumed they were beefier, damage dealing versions of the vanilla frigs; yet as it stands, they this role is completely overshadowed by T3 destroyers because T3Ds have taken over their sigradius bonus, and move at roughly the same speeds as well.

What I'm trying to get at, is that you may want to review their specialisation by giving them a little velocity buff as to ensure there's still a place for them. Different is one thing, no discussion there. But I also want better. Because I paid good ISK for it. Does that make sense to you?

The old 50% MWD sigradius reduction is no longer a selling point as T3Ds have it too. So... dare I suggest an 80% MWD sigradius reduction? A plain speed buff perhaps?

"Why speed" you ask? Well, because that would differentiate them from Tech III destroyers. Destroyers can retain their role as frigblapping machines with or without this modification; but I could once again undock an assault frig and feel like I've made a meaningful choice -- in this case, speed over gank/tank.

Your T1 frig would still be 'different' ; case in fact, a Rifter can fit scram/web/MWD whereas a Wolf only has 2 mids. It is by definition not a tackler but fleet DPS support.
Shalashaska Adam
Partial Safety
#239 - 2015-12-17 15:00:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalashaska Adam
https://suitonia.wordpress.com/2015/12/17/why-are-the-svipul-and-confessor-so-much-more-overpowered-than-the-hecate-and-jackdaw/

Highly recommend CCP give this a good read.

I think the observations and suggestions made in that article, really hit the nail on the head.

Changing the confessors speed mode bonuses to match the hecate, combined with a little base speed nerf and perhaps a small sig increase, would I think perfectly balance that ship, without ruining the fits of those who already use it in other already balanced ways.

Same again for the svipul, speed mode changed to match the hecate, base speed nerf, signature increase. A little something more might be required afterwards for that ship, but i think you get it 99% of the way there by simply making those changes.

What I think should be avoided is any further changes to their fitting, doing so is not truely addressing the issue, certainly not for the confessor atleast. By doing so you restrict the creativity and flexibility of all fits just to try and bandaid one particular issue.

Also would cut out the unintended mode switch trick, instead by giving them 2 sec alligns only in speed mode.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#240 - 2015-12-18 14:45:18 UTC
Have we considered applying a DPS malus when in defensive/prop modes? Their current DPS to tank ratio is foobar, imo.