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[December] Remote Rep Tiericide and Falloff

First post First post
Author
Kithran
#121 - 2015-12-01 11:53:11 UTC
Is there a reason Capital Shield reps use the same amount of PG for both Tech 1 and Concord variants when the Armor version have a 10% reduction to both CPU and PG usage.
Sahriah BloodStone
No.Mercy
Triumvirate.
#122 - 2015-12-01 19:15:27 UTC
Between this and the new shield/armor effects, I would really love you guys to add in a 'Broadcast Friendly Target' button so us Logi FC's can coordinate reps more effectively.

Sahriah Bloodstone

No.Mercy // Triumvirate

"Never underestimate your enemy or disrespect its abilities. If you do, you shall become the hunted "

Lugh Crow-Slave
#123 - 2015-12-02 06:45:54 UTC
Kithran wrote:
Is there a reason Capital Shield reps use the same amount of PG for both Tech 1 and Concord variants when the Armor version have a 10% reduction to both CPU and PG usage.


Probably the same unknown reason shield is getting the short end of the stick in all the changes with this
ODSTSNAKEZZ
No Vacancies
#124 - 2015-12-02 10:20:41 UTC
I'm concerned about how the changes to cap amount will affect alpha neut geddons. Currently a single geddon is able to alpha two guardians cap to zero in a single cycle to try and shut off a cap chain but with these changes this will only be possible using bhaalgorns which lack the range bonus to catch logi.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#125 - 2015-12-02 10:29:52 UTC
Why do we need yet another Caldari nerf?

The Osprey used to be a good and newbro friendly logi boat since Retribution (not the ship) and now it is gimped by occupational hazzard?

Why did you gimp the cap chain range to lol?

Unless you give an energy beam pulse weapon thing to cap x-fer modules I don't like what is happening to them.

Armor all the thingies I guess..

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Lugh Crow-Slave
#126 - 2015-12-02 10:59:59 UTC
ODSTSNAKEZZ wrote:
I'm concerned about how the changes to cap amount will affect alpha neut geddons. Currently a single geddon is able to alpha two guardians cap to zero in a single cycle to try and shut off a cap chain but with these changes this will only be possible using bhaalgorns which lack the range bonus to catch logi.


Well logi is also being forced in closer and the total range of nuets is being extended not to mention the cap cozy of logi mods is gong up
Lilli Tane
Deu-La-Deu
#127 - 2015-12-02 14:00:23 UTC
I like it!!!
But…

Current T2 cruiser Lock ranges

Guardian
Min – 65Kms
Max - 81,25Kms

Basilisk
Min 80Kms
Max 100Kms

Scimitar
Min – 60Kms
Max – 75Kms

Oneiros
Min - 70Kms
Max – 87,5Kms

Armors logi will maintains well inside the optimal witch seem to be the proposed of the change but will not be able to take advantage of the less effective falloff due to lack of lock range, and will sti, still work at the 20% effectiveness range.

Shield logi on the other hand got the “dirty end of the stick”, the Basi will still work till around the 30% effectiveness range, with 100 Kms lock range, while the Scimmi, will only work till the 60% effectiveness range with 75Kms max lock range… however, the change was

Quote:
“Shield reps are more focused on falloff.”


Witch puzzles me in the Scimmi particular case.

Still, was already stated that there are no plans on changing lock ranges.

Another good question is cap stability... what are the numbers?
Guardians and Basis had around 30 seconds running everything with perfect skills what have it come down to?
Scimi was relatively easy to fit stable will that still be possible?
Oneiros was very dependent on Cap boosters or gimped fits to be stable, is that still the case?

Finally energy transfer
What will happen to their ranges, Will they maintain the 150% bonus for now? Will they be lowered to the 60% with no changes to the modules?


Sayod Physulem
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#128 - 2015-12-02 15:48:30 UTC
What may be overlooked...

We once fought against chessur and his small gang in a uni blob (on the way back from a poco defense op or something? not entirely sure anymore) anyway they kited us, our tackle tried to catch them, got out of range of logi, got killed, we always tried to warp to them and get reps in, but at the time we landed we were often already close to being out of range again, add to this all the reestablish cap chain hassle, and you get an idea of the stress caused by that.

Now with falloff we would have been able to just rep our tackle compfortably when we were completely out of range before. So we probably wouldn't have lost anyone, yes reps would have been less effective but we were so many...
So this really makes it easier for larger groups not harder (just because eve media spread the word, that those logistics nerfs were about people whinning about them reinforcing n+1, but maybe I missed the point)

The cycle time increases are a good idea though, and I kind of like the idea of falloff although I am concerned about them for the reason I stated above.
Alexis Nightwish
#129 - 2015-12-02 23:01:31 UTC
So this change will:


  • Nerf the already poor range that frig logi has. A shame as I was really looking forward to frig fleets with real logi.
  • Nerf the Scimitar and Oneiros by hitting them in their one redeeming feature: cap stability. No one will notice as Guardians/Basilisks are the only ones flown anyway. The cap chain will give no fucks about the increased RR cap cost.
  • Do nothing to reduce the ludicrous amount of healing a T2 logi can put out. It will just force Guardians 10km closer. You really had a chance here to make cruiser logi only get bonuses to medium RR and you blew it CCP.
  • In addition to the above, by not making medium ships use medium RR you keep the door closed on the potential of being able to add BS class logistic ships in the future. But you hate BS so I guess this is status quo.
  • Remove even the snowball's chance in hell of shield ships ever being used in large fleet battles. In large battles either they alpha you, or they don't. But armor with it's higher base HP, better resists, and now clearly better repair capabilities (max reps at 45ish for capitals and 60sih for subcaps vs max reps at 30ish for shields which will cycle slower), there will be zero chance shield ships will be intentionally used in large engagements.
  • Make shield gangs more vulnerable to bombs due to the logi needing to be w/in 30km of their targets to apply full reps. Alternatively they can stay at about 40km and live with (and maybe lose ships due to?) the 5-10% penalty.
  • Remove shield RR's advantage over armor RR of being able to apply reps more quickly. Now it will suffer falloff penalties at fairly short range and cycles slower. I am aware that shield reps at the start of the cycle but really that only matters for the first cycle. After that it's all about the cycle time of the module.
  • Prevent the much better system of using sig radius to determine applied reps from ever being implemented.


Oh, BTW thanks for putting this out to us far enough in advance of implementation that we can give feedback that won't be ignored. What?

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers

Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#130 - 2015-12-03 03:33:55 UTC
I really do think shield has got the shaft.

60km optimals for cruiser logis with armour is so close to current meta it's almost not even a change. So you lose long range repping power for the Oneiros, big deal; Guardian's still going to be pumping out reps to 80km just fine. A 4 x 2 @ 80 is like a 3 x 3 @ 60.

The change to Guardian capacitor pool is also terrible. You can make a solo 5 x 1 fit which is cap stable at 65% with 3 outbound reps and no cap chain. I can't see how that's actually a change for the better. Memcell + CPR's FTW. This means that if you do break a cap chain, it don't matter, Guards still going to rep 100% efficiency @ 60km.

The shield falloff means that Scimis are basically useless unless they go within 30km, which is kinda not the idea with solo logis. At their usual engagement range you get 75% or less efficiency.

I think a great opportunity has been missed to differentiate based more on the racial nature of the logi cruisers, versus the armour/shield distinction.

both armour and shield should have solo logis (Scythe/Exequror and Scimi/oneiros) get the Optimal bonus and 60km efficiency on reps. The chaining logis (Osprey/Augoror and Basi/Guard) should suffer the falloff to rep range because they get the utility of capacitor exchange.

As it stands now, everything except the Guardian and (maybe) Augoror lose out.
Guards get more cap, capacitor exchange, T2 resists, low-sig (ridiculously low, thanks Fozzie), 100K+ EHP fits, 4 large reps 100% efficient to 60km, and capacitor chains efficient to 70km.
Basis are next best, with average capacitor, capacitor exchange 100% efficient to 70km, but they get shield RR falloff beyond 30km, lower EHP, higher sig, sluggish speed, lower cycle times and so on. Still OK.
Oneiros gets 60km range, tetchy cap, mediocre sig (not as dumb as Guards @ 70 or less), solo capacitor pools, relatively slow, but overall not so bad.
Scimis get the shaft here. Crap lock range. Huge sig. 3 Large RRs and suffering falloff unless deep in heavy neut range, unable to fit and run 4 large RRs, crap sensor strength, crap tank which will probably be crapper due to needing to fit a SeBo.

I just can't see this really changing the meta to a meaningful way except to really reinforce Slippery Pete fleets and Cerbs and kiters who don't really rely on RR too much, as being the preferred option. Yes, you will see the addition of falloff for RR affecting the meta, by doing away with viable RR for fast light fleets, and relying instead on cancerous alpha fleets with no realistic large-scale counter (Petes).

The only logi fleets wil be guardian-supported. Nothing has really changed here to make a Guardian's job that much harder, it will jjust mean people will concentrate ever harder on hard-to-alpha hulls like low-sig Legions, bricked Prots etc. Weaker armour hulls (prophs, harbs, BS) will be lost more often due to alpha and cycle times and switching, but not the legion/prot dominated T3 blobs.

overall, a terrible missed opportunity to really drive the dynamic toward solo vs chained logis, versus armour vs Petes.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#131 - 2015-12-03 04:31:27 UTC
Lilli Tane wrote:
I like it!!!
But…

Current T2 cruiser Lock ranges...


Is being increased by becoming purple.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#132 - 2015-12-03 19:48:17 UTC
I used to be interested enough in this game to learn about all this ****. It's getting pretty old relearning most everything again.

Not today spaghetti.

Jacques the Repper
The Goatee Appreciation Club
#133 - 2015-12-03 21:10:23 UTC
All T1 and T2 Cruiser Rep Drone bonuses will now apply to hull rep drones as well as armor and shield


Okay, does this mean that, say, a Scimi will get drone bonuses for just shield and hull bots, or that it will get drone bonuses for shield, armor, and hull bots, because it isn't really clear the way that you worded it. IOW, when you say hull rep drones, are those just being added to what the bonuses are now or will the logis now just get all rep drones across the board?


Oh, and for another useful Logi thing, could you add distance to the fleet watch list features, especially if we are going to have to figure out range more?
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#134 - 2015-12-04 00:43:07 UTC
mate, just have an overview tab with your fleet mates on it, and sort by distance.
Alexis Nightwish
#135 - 2015-12-04 04:40:49 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
I really do think shield has got the shaft.

60km optimals for cruiser logis with armour is so close to current meta it's almost not even a change. So you lose long range repping power for the Oneiros, big deal; Guardian's still going to be pumping out reps to 80km just fine. A 4 x 2 @ 80 is like a 3 x 3 @ 60.

The change to Guardian capacitor pool is also terrible. You can make a solo 5 x 1 fit which is cap stable at 65% with 3 outbound reps and no cap chain. I can't see how that's actually a change for the better. Memcell + CPR's FTW. This means that if you do break a cap chain, it don't matter, Guards still going to rep 100% efficiency @ 60km.

The shield falloff means that Scimis are basically useless unless they go within 30km, which is kinda not the idea with solo logis. At their usual engagement range you get 75% or less efficiency.

I think a great opportunity has been missed to differentiate based more on the racial nature of the logi cruisers, versus the armour/shield distinction.

both armour and shield should have solo logis (Scythe/Exequror and Scimi/oneiros) get the Optimal bonus and 60km efficiency on reps. The chaining logis (Osprey/Augoror and Basi/Guard) should suffer the falloff to rep range because they get the utility of capacitor exchange.

As it stands now, everything except the Guardian and (maybe) Augoror lose out.
Guards get more cap, capacitor exchange, T2 resists, low-sig (ridiculously low, thanks Fozzie), 100K+ EHP fits, 4 large reps 100% efficient to 60km, and capacitor chains efficient to 70km.
Basis are next best, with average capacitor, capacitor exchange 100% efficient to 70km, but they get shield RR falloff beyond 30km, lower EHP, higher sig, sluggish speed, lower cycle times and so on. Still OK.
Oneiros gets 60km range, tetchy cap, mediocre sig (not as dumb as Guards @ 70 or less), solo capacitor pools, relatively slow, but overall not so bad.
Scimis get the shaft here. Crap lock range. Huge sig. 3 Large RRs and suffering falloff unless deep in heavy neut range, unable to fit and run 4 large RRs, crap sensor strength, crap tank which will probably be crapper due to needing to fit a SeBo.

I just can't see this really changing the meta to a meaningful way except to really reinforce Slippery Pete fleets and Cerbs and kiters who don't really rely on RR too much, as being the preferred option. Yes, you will see the addition of falloff for RR affecting the meta, by doing away with viable RR for fast light fleets, and relying instead on cancerous alpha fleets with no realistic large-scale counter (Petes).

The only logi fleets wil be guardian-supported. Nothing has really changed here to make a Guardian's job that much harder, it will jjust mean people will concentrate ever harder on hard-to-alpha hulls like low-sig Legions, bricked Prots etc. Weaker armour hulls (prophs, harbs, BS) will be lost more often due to alpha and cycle times and switching, but not the legion/prot dominated T3 blobs.

overall, a terrible missed opportunity to really drive the dynamic toward solo vs chained logis, versus armour vs Petes.

This. ALL of this. Especially the part I enhanced. Giving the solo logi the optimal range, and the cap chain logi the falloff is simply brilliant.

But it won't happen. That's not CCP's MO.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers

Super Miguel
Disposable Spies
Honorable Third Party
#136 - 2015-12-04 15:15:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Super Miguel
people that have logistics 5 will they get grandfathered in with frigs logistics 5? Will the new cruise logistics have the same SP as the old one?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#137 - 2015-12-04 16:36:28 UTC
Super Miguel wrote:
people that have logistics 5 will they get grandfathered in with frigs logistics 5? Will the new cruise logistics have the same SP as the old one?

No
Yes


why would you get grandfathered in and why would sp change
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#138 - 2015-12-04 23:34:27 UTC
I really feel the 'scoped' meta modules are somewhat lacking in their range, at least compared to T2. They sit almost midway between T2 and the rest, rather than being closer to the longer T2 range, and combined with almost better everything else, it makes T2 that much more desirable. I think the ranged module should be s bit closer to T2 range to make them a real choice.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#139 - 2015-12-06 15:06:39 UTC
So we are nearly there and the only feedback it sends they have taken is lowering the armor rep PG well rip shield fleets:/
LordInvisible
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2015-12-07 12:01:16 UTC
I'm still not sure if CCP actually plays all the styles of gameplay that we have available.

They "fixed" blob RR problem (kind of..) but they introduced even more OP tactics for us, empire warriors.

Since we (as in solo station huggers) tend to fight 1vs1 alot, a neutral RR is now even easier to pull off. In 1vs1 fights there only needs to be a small RR available for game to turn around. And with shield RR now orbiting at 70km, where is impossible to catch it, heck, even ECM it, altough with less shield boost in falloff its still mandatory to have neutral RR alt parked somewhere close.

At least frigs are gonna be in heavy neut range, right?! RIGHT?!?!?

And dont tell me about best ship is friendship. I like to play alone, but with every patch there is more struggle for solo pvp. Its either blob or go back to lvl4.