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A month into Eve, my biggest beef: Inescapable gate camps

Author
Mag's
Azn Empire
#41 - 2015-12-03 06:46:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
People have always scorned those of us that have camped gates. Most of them have never done it, so have little knowledge in what it entails. But they're always willing to give their opinion, which is nice.

I personally did it because it fitted into my personal life. I could log on whenever and join the corp. Unlike my long time in null, when if you missed the time, you'd end up jumping god knows how many gates to get with the roaming fleet.

Out of all the things I've done in Eve, it's one of the hardest. Some will deny this, but you need specific fits and you paint a rather large hotdrop me sign on your head. People are always trying to bait you and to suggest it's risk averse, is quite frankly laughable.
It's also never been about thick skins, I'm in fact the first to tell you I suck at Eve. But please don't lie about why.

As far as the OP is concerned. I find it funny he's berating this style of play, whilst telling us all he wants an easy option out of the odd chance he has to risk one. And why? Well :EFFORT: apparently. Roll
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
I mean, you literally have no reason to kill a player from an NPC corp in a T1 frigate, by himself, with nothing in his hold... other than that it's easier and quicker than cargo scanning him. It's not a challenge, and you gain nothing.
This only goes to show what little you know. Not only do so called NPC players in T1 frigs carry expensive loot, but new characters in rookie ships do. But showing your ignorance in this regard, only highlights the rest.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#42 - 2015-12-03 07:03:47 UTC
Strike one, NPC corp poster in F&I.

Strike two, asking for more safety when cloak+MWD already exists.

Strikes three through seven, Scope.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Iain Cariaba
#43 - 2015-12-03 07:43:53 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
TBH, I don't really like gatecamps, myself. Different reasons, though. I don't find them problematic, I just think they're a boring chore that appeals only to the most shiftless and risk-averse of players.


Might I suggest you pull your head out and learn what terms like risk averse mean, because running around and using the term like an insult only makes you look like an idiot.

They are also very thin-skinned, precious things. Lol

Big, big difference between risk aversion and risk mitigation.

Risk mitigation is using the methods established by the mechanics of the game to reduce your risk.

OP is perfect example of risk aversion, the attitude of, "I don't want/like the risk, so it must be removed."

Suggest you get some Windex for the porthole in your stomach. The dirty glass is blurring your vision.
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2015-12-03 07:45:40 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
Ok, so I've spent a bunch of time in high sec, low sec, null sec and wormholes. Solo, in fleets, in a big corp, etc. I'm not a carebear (I live in lowsec) and like having to generally watch my back. PvE would be boring if I didn't, honestly.

However, when I'm alone in a small ship and jump through a gate into a cluster of 10 campers, it's an unavoidable death unless I'm in a covops ship. I have no way of peeking the other side. I have no way to escape once I'm there if they have marginally competent tacklers. They have no reason not to explode me. Gate guns are a joke for even a small gang.

I'm all for PVP when I have tools to fight or avoid, but this is a scenario with zero built-in fairness. I fail to see how it adds any value to the game.

My suggested fix:

Give players (at least un-fleeted ones) an escape option and balance that by giving campers more tools to catch players who are already in-system.

For example, combine these three changes:

* Make the free cloak stay on for the whole minute while slowboating, or stay on until you're in warp.

* Add a module to disable stargate use for a targeted ship, and create a delay (3 seconds, maybe) between warping to 0 and jumping through.

* Add a "warp to 300" option for gates

The end result:

If I jump through a camped gate, I'm not insta-dead, but I do have to stay in the system. I have the ability to scout gates without spending hours creating perch bookmarks for the systems I use a lot. Campers have the ability to prevent me leaving, and can still hunt me with probes and Dscan.



--> use Cov Ops/ instawarp ceptors

Probleme solved

-1
Zarere
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2015-12-03 07:46:49 UTC
I cant remember the last time i've been caught by a gatecamp. Much less seen a proper gatecamp with more than a single smartbombing battleship.

Move away from the trafficked areas of new eden and never see a gatecamp again.
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#46 - 2015-12-03 08:00:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Mieyli
Aivlis Eldelbar wrote:
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
The point is it's a hassle and a time suck, and in no way fun.



So if other players spend time in an unfun way to kill you, would it balance out? Because that's what gatecamps are.


The best strategy in the game should not be one that is so boring you feel like logging out. Gate camps are a symptom of how difficult it is to actually catch anyone in this game. Sure I could warp all over the place trying to get on grid with someone and have time to lock them before they warp away, or I could sit at a gate all day and just wait for people to come to the grid I'm at. It might be boring waiting at a gate but at least I would have a chance to catch something.

It's also frustrating for the victim since the only way to avoid the camp is to have an alt scout you around; two un-fun experiences don't make for a fun one. I have said in other threads but I believe that fewer alts would be good for the game, and that CCP should be striving to remove cases where an alt is basically essential.

How to "fix" gatecamps is a tough one but I think it could be done through a rework of tackle mechanics or through some other means.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.

Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#47 - 2015-12-03 08:16:55 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
So... destroys lowsec/nullsec gatecamping while at the same time nerfing solo play by not allowing players to deagress on gate...

The simple fact is that you shouldn't be safe, anywhere, especially when traveling, and gatecamps are simply how players demonstrate that rule. Learn ways to avoid them, or get some people together and kick some ass. Don't whine about how they should be removed because you don't like getting killed when you don't want to.


Sure, I can get an interceptor alt and double my travel time to everywhere. That sounds fun.

Plus, the whole point was to balance the camps. Camp your ass off, but catch me after I'm in-system instead of the lazy, lame "let's put 10 guys on this gate and explode 20 frigates to stave off the boredom of waiting for that one solo T3 cruiser."


what he meant was that you could travel in a interceptor and you cant be tackled if you fit it right. you can freely move anywhere you want and faster as well specially if you fit it right so 2x rig to increase warpspeed few warpcore stabs and some nanofibers for agility and cloak for whatever reason you need a safe break and a few prop mods and well you got a ultra fast ship that aligns pretty damn fast and is in warp before someone can point mouse on it let alone lock and scram it and with 2 warpcore stabs they need a +3 strength point and on a sidenote it has bubble immunity and warps at 12 to 14AU so chasing it is utterly useless

only thing that could kill you is well fly like an idiot or get killed by a small fleet using smartbombs

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#48 - 2015-12-03 08:39:20 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
Cidanel Afuran wrote:

And as someone who has lived in WHs for longer than you've been playing the game, there are absolutely camps on exits to holes. If I have an exit that spits out close to very populated HS, you can bet your last ISK that I will camp it if there's nothing else going on.


Sure, it's just not rampant like it is in lowsec, in my experience. Plus, say I find a wormhole in an out-of-the-way lowsec system. Odds are great that the other side isn't camped, so it's little risk to pop in with my covops ship to scout around.

I can be smart about where to look for wormholes, but I can't really avoid high-traffic lowsec lanes and the camps that plague them.



Lowsec gates are utterly dead once you get passed the highsec neighbouring systems. Although even these days even they are pretty quiet compared to days gone by. Heck, just the other week I flew from null to highsec in my travel inty. Once in high sec I slapped on autopilot to get to destination whilst I made a coffee...came back to find I'd forgotten to readjust the route from shortest to safest and I'd made a half dozen jumps into low on autopilot and was still alive.

Now in the spirit of being constructive let me offer you some tips to help you out. Please keep in mind that it seems to me that you want to roll solo/alone and that is fair enough, to each their own, just understand it does limit you.

First off use map stats. Plot your route and examine the map, look for ship losses in the last hour, pod losses. If you see any, go look at the system on a killboard and check the death - camps will stand out loud and clear next to a facwar killing for example.

If you find no kills, good - that means it's been quiet. But don't stop there, check the number of pilots active in space too, maybe there are camps but no kills (not uncommon) and perhaps avoid the bigger glows - again check killboards.

None of this needs an alt and takes but a minute of your time if you're flying through a hot zone. You get to know the dangerous systems.

Another option, in low sec is simply to use something that aligns in or under 2.0 seconds. Untackleable. In null use an interceptor.

There are plenty of ways and means even to the solo player to duck camps.


You may not like camps, but they're one of the only places left to force a casual fight. Most everything else is over a strategic asset, unless you dig FW.
Iain Cariaba
#49 - 2015-12-03 09:20:17 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
So... destroys lowsec/nullsec gatecamping while at the same time nerfing solo play by not allowing players to deagress on gate...

The simple fact is that you shouldn't be safe, anywhere, especially when traveling, and gatecamps are simply how players demonstrate that rule. Learn ways to avoid them, or get some people together and kick some ass. Don't whine about how they should be removed because you don't like getting killed when you don't want to.


Sure, I can get an interceptor alt and double my travel time to everywhere. That sounds fun.

Plus, the whole point was to balance the camps. Camp your ass off, but catch me after I'm in-system instead of the lazy, lame "let's put 10 guys on this gate and explode 20 frigates to stave off the boredom of waiting for that one solo T3 cruiser."


what he meant was that you could travel in a interceptor and you cant be tackled if you fit it right. you can freely move anywhere you want and faster as well specially if you fit it right so 2x rig to increase warpspeed few warpcore stabs and some nanofibers for agility and cloak for whatever reason you need a safe break and a few prop mods and well you got a ultra fast ship that aligns pretty damn fast and is in warp before someone can point mouse on it let alone lock and scram it and with 2 warpcore stabs they need a +3 strength point and on a sidenote it has bubble immunity and warps at 12 to 14AU so chasing it is utterly useless

only thing that could kill you is well fly like an idiot or get killed by a small fleet using smartbombs

If you're using warp stabs on an interceptor, you're doing it wrong.

Fill lows with inertial stabs, rigs with low friction nozzles. The objective is to get align time to under 2 seconds. A lot of the gate camps I've been involved with since they changed ceptors have specifically fit to catch warp stabbed ceptors. Your warp strength is utterly irrelevant if you're in warp before the server will allow them to activate a module on you.

Sure, you don't warp at a bit over 11AU/s, but only a ceptor rigged to warp that fast is going to catch you anyway, and he still won't be able to point you before you warp off the next gate. Base warp speed of an interceptor is already faster than almost every other ship in the game can be rigged to warp.
Maccian
Soul Takers
Pen Is Out
#50 - 2015-12-03 12:47:05 UTC
Instead of all that you could just report the gate camps in intel channels, organise a fleet to hot drop them, problem solved right? Lol
Jasonne Ormand
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2015-12-03 13:44:24 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:


The best strategy in the game should not be one that is so boring you feel like logging out. Gate camps are a symptom of how difficult it is to actually catch anyone in this game. Sure I could warp all over the place trying to get on grid with someone and have time to lock them before they warp away, or I could sit at a gate all day and just wait for people to come to the grid I'm at. It might be boring waiting at a gate but at least I would have a chance to catch something.

It's also frustrating for the victim since the only way to avoid the camp is to have an alt scout you around; two un-fun experiences don't make for a fun one. I have said in other threads but I believe that fewer alts would be good for the game, and that CCP should be striving to remove cases where an alt is basically essential.

How to "fix" gatecamps is a tough one but I think it could be done through a rework of tackle mechanics or through some other means.


Finally, a voice of reason. Thanks for that. I get that it's a hard problem to solve, and don't mean to imply that someone who's been playing for a month could actually put forth a major change idea that wouldn't have all kinds of unintended consequences. Any fix would be a significant change.

But if a part of the game feels like a rage-inducing slog through the mud for everyone who's not doing the camping, then it should be addressed. Plain and simple.
Jasonne Ormand
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2015-12-03 13:46:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Jasonne Ormand
.
Richard TheLordOfDance
Operation Fishbowl Inc.
#53 - 2015-12-03 14:43:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard TheLordOfDance
Jasonne Ormand wrote:

Sure, I can get an interceptor alt and double my travel time to everywhere. That sounds fun.

Plus, the whole point was to balance the camps. Camp your ass off, but catch me after I'm in-system instead of the lazy, lame "let's put 10 guys on this gate and explode 20 frigates to stave off the boredom of waiting for that one solo T3 cruiser."

Or you can get in an interceptor yourself and avoid gate camps in both null and low if it's fitted correctly, while at the same time pretty much cutting your travel time in half! Instead of using a scout you'll be the scout.

Yes that doesn't solve the problem of gate camps sucking for both sides but your solutions would introduce more problems than they solve! Eventually there will come a solution and it will be glorious but until then we have ways of avoiding the problem entirely!
Iain Cariaba
#54 - 2015-12-03 15:10:21 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
Finally, a voice of reason.

There's been lots of reason. Just none coming from you.

I have yet to see you post a single reason why gate camps are bad beyond the fact that you don't like them. I've been in quite a few gate camps over my years playing. Most of them have been nothing more than people wanting to do something quasi-productive while sitting on comms socializing, but no one wants to go on a roam.

Gate camps have their place in EvE. They are the space equivalent of a checkpoint to get into any secure area. If you have clearance, ie being set blue, then you get through easily. If you don't have clearance, then you need to be able to move fast to outrun the guards.

Once again, the various methods to avoid gate camps have already been posted in this thread. If you don't want to use them, then stay out of areas where you may run into gate camps.

How many times must we tell you that trying to change the game so that you get to fly around dangerous areas in safety, without having to exert even a minimum amount of effort to earn that safety, is not the answer?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#55 - 2015-12-03 15:28:53 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:

But if a part of the game feels like a rage-inducing slog through the mud for everyone who's not doing the camping, then it should be addressed. Plain and simple.


Other players have told you right here in this thread that gate camps are a useful tool and getting through gate camps is a fun challenge. But to hell with other players right?

If the only arguments you're going to aknowledge as logical are the sycophants, this thread is done.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Jasonne Ormand
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2015-12-03 15:52:01 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Jasonne Ormand wrote:

But if a part of the game feels like a rage-inducing slog through the mud for everyone who's not doing the camping, then it should be addressed. Plain and simple.


Other players have told you right here in this thread that gate camps are a useful tool and getting through gate camps is a fun challenge. But to hell with other players right?

If the only arguments you're going to acknowledge as logical are the sycophants, this thread is done.


Given the sheer number of lopsided deaths that happen at gate camps, what would you say the ratio of frustration to fun is for people trying to get through them?

If you think the "running them is fun" camp equals the "fck gate camps" crowd, you're out of your mind.

And as I've already stated, a well designed mechanic would allow you to achieve the goals of your gate camps without being a pain in the rest of the player base's ass.

I swear, every time someone proposes a change to Eve (or any MMO, really), the masses scream "it'll break EVERYTHING" in their utter inability to take a rough idea and tweak it to taste, or even to imagine a world in which the good stuff stays while the bad stuff goes.

"Your idea, as literally stated, has problems, therefore gate camps have to stay as-is for all eternity even though most people hate them and even the campers mostly do them out of sheer boredom." -- most of the sentiment in this thread
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#57 - 2015-12-03 16:00:22 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
Given the sheer number of lopsided deaths that happen at gate camps, what would you say the ratio of frustration to fun is for people trying to get through them?

If you think the "running them is fun" camp equals the "fck gate camps" crowd, you're out of your mind.

And as I've already stated, a well designed mechanic would allow you to achieve the goals of your gate camps without being a pain in the rest of the player base's ass.

I swear, every time someone proposes a change to Eve (or any MMO, really), the masses scream "it'll break EVERYTHING" in their utter inability to take a rough idea and tweak it to taste, or even to imagine a world in which the good stuff stays while the bad stuff goes.

"Your idea, as literally stated, has problems, therefore gate camps have to stay as-is for all eternity even though most people hate them and even the campers mostly do them out of sheer boredom." -- most of the sentiment in this thread


How many times have you jumped through in a covert ops or interceptor, saw a gate camp, gathered a dozen people and attacked the camp? Looking for a specific number here.
Jasonne Ormand
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2015-12-03 16:02:34 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:

I have yet to see you post a single reason why gate camps are bad beyond the fact that you don't like them.


Sure I have. The universally indiscriminate application of gate camps makes people dislike the game. That's it. It's a game. If a large part of it is not fun for the majority, then it's losing players that could otherwise be in the game with you. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

Quote:

Gate camps have their place in EvE. They are the space equivalent of a checkpoint to get into any secure area.


So goes the theory. In my area of space, they're typically 4 to 8 ships from small corps exploding anything and everything. It's not a tactic in a war with another corp. It's not area control if they're on one gate in one system. It's 5 people pissing off everyone else for fun, nothing more.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#59 - 2015-12-03 16:08:59 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
Given the sheer number of lopsided deaths that happen at gate camps



Well obviously.

I mean, if something horrible lands on the other side, the camp scatters. Because they use a scout and don't die in fires.

You're not going to see a competent camp die to anything other than a hotdrop they didn't see coming. Because they use a scout.

The key thing here is SCOUT.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#60 - 2015-12-03 16:19:20 UTC
Another day, another terrible idea from an NPC poasting alt non-entity

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log