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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Make some basic concepts part of the F&I resources sticky

Author
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#1 - 2015-11-28 01:01:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Xe'Cara'eos
So all too often we get people coming in here talking about things like mining or PI or moon-goo as an isk-faucet
they then talk about ships exploding as an isk sink

I would love to see a definition of an isk faucet and an isk sink (and perhaps a goods faucet and goods sink and possibly goods conversion) included in CCP falcon's sticky at the top of F&I

Quote:

So - EVElopedia kindly provides us with definitions of an isk faucet and sink
Evelopedia - ISK faucet
EVElopedia - ISK sink

The following are examples of isk faucets:
  • mission isk rewards,
  • insurance payouts,
  • NPC bounties (anoms, belts, missions),
  • incursion isk payouts,
  • selling goods to an NPC
  • The following are examples of isk sinks:
  • buying ship insurance,
  • buying items with isk from NPC's (LP store isk costs, and market goods like skill books, CC's, etc)
  • NPC taxes (trade, corp, sustomsimport/export)
  • broker fees
  • manufacturing fees
  • the above list is not exhaustive

    in the same vein, there are goods faucets and sinks, which can be subdivided into classes of goods
    the following are examples of goods faucets:
  • mining (mineral faucet)
  • moon-mining (moon-goo faucet)
  • PI (PI goods faucet)
  • NPC loot and salvage - sleepers, drifters, missions, anoms, belt-rats (module and salvage faucet)
  • player salvage could be called a goods faucet as salvage can never be turned back into a ship, no matter what you do with it (salvage faucet)
  • hacking/analysing (datacore/decryptor faucet)
  • research agents (datacore faucet)
  • buying items from NPC's (anything faucet)
  • the following are examples of goods sinks:
  • asset destruction (ships, modules, rigs, contents, POS's, containers, anything really)
  • asset trashing (as above)
  • failed invention (BPC and datacore sink)
  • selling items to NPC's (anything sink)
  • manufacturing and refining can be classed as minor goods sinks due to waste (ore/mineral sinks)

  • just to be clear:
  • bob mines some ore - this is a goods faucet (ore into the economy), and isk-neutral
  • bob then refines this ore into minerals - this is a minor goods sink (wastage assuming he's not refining at 100%) and a major goods conversion (ore->minerals), isk neutral
  • bob sells his minerals to fred - this is a goods movement and isk movement (goods go from bob to fred, isk goes from fred to bob)
  • fred then manufactures his minerals into a hull and some modules - this is a minor goods sink (wastage again), minor isk sink (manufacturing fees) and a major goods conversion (minerals->ship+fitting)
  • fred then insures his ship - this is an isk sink (isk gets payed to an NPC who will never use it, therefore is removed from the economy)
  • fred flies his ship somewhere else - this is not goods movement (fred still owns the ship)
  • fred then gets blown up - this is a goods sink (ship + some mods removed from game)
  • fred gets insurance payout - this is an isk faucet (an NPC who will never run out of money gives bob some isk, thereby injects it into the economy)

  • Quote:

    Risk/Reward:
  • if an activity has little risk (ie safe from being blown up/loss of isk, at least in theory) it should have a correspondingly small reward
  • examples include HS mining, HS missions (not including burners), station trading (but not speculating)

  • if an activity has high risk (and I'm including failure of investments here) it should have a high reward
  • examples include nullsec undocked activities, WH activities (as you make that safe by actions as a group such as guarding your entrance pipes/holes) market speculation

  • Quote:

    This cannot be stated enough: once you undock - you consent to PVP, suicide ganking is an intended game mechanic, including podding.
    Concord is there to provide a consequence to the ganker, not keep you safe


    as well as:
  • links to the 'commonly proposed idea' threads
  • a suggestion that players try to think of ways that their idea could be abused before bringing it to the forums, or acknowledge its weaknesses

  • any other suggestions for things you'd like to see up there?

    EDIT:
    thanks Daichi Yamato for those links! They're now in the quote.
    thanks elitatwo for the suggestions of adding goods faucets/sinks in, though I've not been overly specific, I hope it's reasonable
    Shallanna Yassavi ty for that point about risk/reward! I have now added that in.

    For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.

    Mike Voidstar
    Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
    #2 - 2015-11-28 01:19:00 UTC
    Other than the abuse clause it sounds reasonable.

    I would agree with the abuse clause except the answer there is always 'alts'. It's an extremely rare mechanic that does not get abused by alts. Alts are why we can't have nice things.
    elitatwo
    Zansha Expansion
    Brave Collective
    #3 - 2015-11-28 01:38:57 UTC
    Xe'Cara'eos, don't forget to talk about "mineral sinks" and "moon-poo sinks" which I think belong there too.

    Oh and +2.

    Eve Minions is recruiting.

    This is the law of ship progression!

    Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

    Xe'Cara'eos
    A Big Enough Lever
    #4 - 2015-11-28 12:31:39 UTC
    Mike Voidstar wrote:
    Other than the abuse clause it sounds reasonable.

    I would agree with the abuse clause except the answer there is always 'alts'. It's an extremely rare mechanic that does not get abused by alts. Alts are why we can't have nice things.


    fair enough comment, although I would temper it with - they're paying extra or playing their main less to have alts

    For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.

    Xe'Cara'eos
    A Big Enough Lever
    #5 - 2015-11-28 12:33:38 UTC
    elitatwo wrote:
    Xe'Cara'eos, don't forget to talk about "mineral sinks" and "moon-poo sinks" which I think belong there too.

    Oh and +2.


    can I not just lump them in as goods/commodities?
    I'll aim to expand my definitions this evening.

    For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.

    Daichi Yamato
    Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
    #6 - 2015-11-28 16:34:17 UTC
    You forgot that sales tax and brokers fees are isk sinks.

    EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

    Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

    Donnachadh
    United Allegiance of Undesirables
    #7 - 2015-11-28 16:34:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
    I am not against your idea but turning to the ISK faucet thingy here are some thoughts.

    High sec missions are oft targeted as a faucet and yet those same people will defend their ability to make obscene amounts of ISK doing other activities outside high sec.

    Incursions are oft times stated as a faucet, usually by those who are making as much or more per hour solo ratting, or running anoms in nul or worm holes.

    Ratting / anoms in null and Incursions are oft stated as faucets mainly by high sec players that are tired of their income sources being singled out as the worst faucets in the game.

    So in reality before we can post anything in a sticky about faucets we have to be able to define what an ISK faucet actually is. Setting aside personal opinions on the matter does anyone have an idea, or a formula that can be applied equally across ALL activities in ALL areas of EvE space and can be used to accurately define an ISK faucet?

    And the answer to the obvious question is no I do not have any ideas on how to properly define an ISK faucet.
    At a personal level every time I think I have one I could propose and then I am challenged by RL friends to test it on their situation and it fails miserable in the ability to apply it equally to all areas of space and to all activities.
    Daichi Yamato
    Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
    #8 - 2015-11-28 17:10:20 UTC
    isk faucet

    Isk sink

    Bounties and mission and incursion rewards are ALL faucets. LP are neither, but since spending LP often comes along with spending isk, they are generally considered a sink.

    EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

    Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

    elitatwo
    Zansha Expansion
    Brave Collective
    #9 - 2015-11-28 21:16:24 UTC
    Xe'Cara'eos wrote:
    elitatwo wrote:
    Xe'Cara'eos, don't forget to talk about "mineral sinks" and "moon-poo sinks" which I think belong there too.

    Oh and +2.


    can I not just lump them in as goods/commodities?
    I'll aim to expand my definitions this evening.


    That is all up to you, I was merley suggesting since people are always confusing the two but mineral faucets are not really hurting the game.

    Eve Minions is recruiting.

    This is the law of ship progression!

    Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

    Xe'Cara'eos
    A Big Enough Lever
    #10 - 2015-11-29 21:51:15 UTC
    thanks Daichi Yamato for those links! They're now in the quote.

    thanks elitatwo for the suggestions of adding goods faucets/sinks in, though I've not been overly specific, I hope it's reasonable

    keep the thoughts and comments coming guys

    For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.

    Shallanna Yassavi
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #11 - 2015-11-29 22:46:10 UTC
    Don't forget the risk-reward equation, which all of EVE is designed around.
    Low risk? Better not give much, and your ship shouldn't be in serious danger.
    Higher risk? Assuming you get away with whatever you were after, it should pay well, but the chances of it going bad should be significant and require thought and planning.

    And everything in between.

    A signature :o

    Xe'Cara'eos
    A Big Enough Lever
    #12 - 2015-11-30 14:05:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Xe'Cara'eos
    Shallanna Yassavi ty for that point about risk/reward!

    perhaps I ought to add in the point that NOWHERE in EVE is supposed to be entirely safe?

    Also - how do we get one of the ISD's to spot this and make it happen?

    For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.

    Lady Rift
    What Shall We Call It
    #13 - 2015-11-30 15:13:47 UTC
    ccp post stats on isk sinks and faucets. The last one was a dev blog called eve economy update eve vegas 2015 report found

    http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve-economy-update-eve-vegas-2015-report/



    LP is a big sink
    SurrenderMonkey
    The Exchange Collective
    Solyaris Chtonium
    #14 - 2015-11-30 16:29:34 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
    Donnachadh wrote:


    So in reality before we can post anything in a sticky about faucets we have to be able to define what an ISK faucet actually is. Setting aside personal opinions on the matter does anyone have an idea, or a formula that can be applied equally across ALL activities in ALL areas of EvE space and can be used to accurately define an ISK faucet?


    I... wow. Talk about missing the point.

    An ISK faucet is anything that introduces NEW isk into the game. That's it. There's no formula, and it's not dependent on any quantitative value.

    It is about as dead simple as you could possibly get, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the efficacy of any activity as a method of earning money.

    "Help, I'm bored with missions!"

    http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

    Xe'Cara'eos
    A Big Enough Lever
    #15 - 2015-11-30 17:37:59 UTC
    Lady Rift wrote:
    ccp post stats on isk sinks and faucets. The last one was a dev blog called eve economy update eve vegas 2015 report found

    http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve-economy-update-eve-vegas-2015-report/



    LP is a big sink


    LP themselves are not a sink, they are a currency
    LP stores are an isk and lp sink

    For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.