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Quote - The economy and amassing of wealth
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TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#1 - 2015-11-26 14:58:40 UTC
Quote:
The second finding was that Piketty probably overestimated how high the returns to capital would be in the future. For his fears to come true, wealthy people who amass more and more capital would need to keep earning a high return on that capital. But, Rognlie’s research suggests, the returns to capital will decline over time unless it is very easy for the economy to substitute capital (like robots) for labor (workers) – far easier, in fact, than historical evidence suggests is normal.


The Washington Post

Dont we see this in the EVE economy? Isn't this the reason why loan rent returns in MD are very low?

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#2 - 2015-11-26 16:10:54 UTC
The reason why MD loan rates are so low, is there is far more isk available to fill MD loans than there are loans to fill.
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
#3 - 2015-11-26 22:22:33 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
The reason why MD loan rates are so low, is there is far more isk available to fill MD loans than there are loans to fill.


Loan me 20b?

@JerryTPepridge
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2015-11-26 23:39:39 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
The reason why MD loan rates are so low, is there is far more isk available to fill MD loans than there are loans to fill.


There are also few institutions that allow for a full-fledged financial market. The "banking sector" in EVE is extremely anemic. The reason for this is that banks need governments (and governments have come to need a banking sector). There is no government in EVE to set up rules for financial firms to come into existence. This is why there are no insurance markets, no futures markets, no markets for other financial derivatives. With these kinds of rules risk could be reduce and better managed. Which would in turn reduce interest rates and allow a considerable increase in liquidity in various markets in New Eden. The Eve financial sector is something you'd likely find in a feudal society.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
#5 - 2015-11-27 00:02:56 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
The reason why MD loan rates are so low, is there is far more isk available to fill MD loans than there are loans to fill.


There are also few institutions that allow for a full-fledged financial market. The "banking sector" in EVE is extremely anemic. The reason for this is that banks need governments (and governments have come to need a banking sector). There is no government in EVE to set up rules for financial firms to come into existence. This is why there are no insurance markets, no futures markets, no markets for other financial derivatives. With these kinds of rules risk could be reduce and better managed. Which would in turn reduce interest rates and allow a considerable increase in liquidity in various markets in New Eden. The Eve financial sector is something you'd likely find in a feudal society.


Well spotted, who would of thought a vidya game wouldn't have a government to set strict rules to govern a financial institution in eve. Roll

@JerryTPepridge
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2015-11-27 00:42:37 UTC
TheSmokingHertog wrote:
Quote:
The second finding was that Piketty probably overestimated how high the returns to capital would be in the future. For his fears to come true, wealthy people who amass more and more capital would need to keep earning a high return on that capital. But, Rognlie’s research suggests, the returns to capital will decline over time unless it is very easy for the economy to substitute capital (like robots) for labor (workers) – far easier, in fact, than historical evidence suggests is normal.


The Washington Post

Dont we see this in the EVE economy? Isn't this the reason why loan rent returns in MD are very low?


No. I don't thing the Piketty-Rognlie issue applies to an economy like the New Eden economy. We don't have a well developed financial sector. "Putting your money to work for you" is where you can give it to those who are willing to use it to make real things so you don't have to be bothered with it and you are paid interest. The opportunity to do this in New Eden is severely curtailed and any ISK that sits in your wallet is basically earning a zero interest rate, and if inflation is at all positive you are losing purchasing power over time.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2015-11-27 00:54:45 UTC
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
The reason why MD loan rates are so low, is there is far more isk available to fill MD loans than there are loans to fill.


There are also few institutions that allow for a full-fledged financial market. The "banking sector" in EVE is extremely anemic. The reason for this is that banks need governments (and governments have come to need a banking sector). There is no government in EVE to set up rules for financial firms to come into existence. This is why there are no insurance markets, no futures markets, no markets for other financial derivatives. With these kinds of rules risk could be reduce and better managed. Which would in turn reduce interest rates and allow a considerable increase in liquidity in various markets in New Eden. The Eve financial sector is something you'd likely find in a feudal society.


Well spotted, who would of thought a vidya game wouldn't have a government to set strict rules to govern a financial institution in eve. Roll


I actually linked to an article about how we could have a more robust financial sector in the New Eden economy and the general consensus was that it was a horrible idea because players like our feudalistic financial system. In effect, by making such a change, CCP would be the government and CCP would have to damn little. But all these Bond Posts would likely disappear.

v0v

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#8 - 2015-11-27 02:32:18 UTC
Of course if the bounty system were fixed - there might be a way to make banking work
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
#9 - 2015-11-27 02:36:24 UTC
Paul Pohl wrote:
Of course if the bounty system were fixed - there might be a way to make banking work


Bounty system has been reworked & is fine.

@JerryTPepridge
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#10 - 2015-11-27 02:51:03 UTC
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:
Paul Pohl wrote:
Of course if the bounty system were fixed - there might be a way to make banking work


Bounty system has been reworked & is fine.


Is it?

I dunno... I can't help thinking that it needs reworking as part of the dynamic universe thing CCP are working on
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#11 - 2015-11-27 04:21:59 UTC
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:
Paul Pohl wrote:
Of course if the bounty system were fixed - there might be a way to make banking work


Bounty system has been reworked & is fine.


I wouldn't call it fine, a large bounty poses little to no danger to a character outside of unpredictable edge cases (e.g. if you have an Iteron with 60m in cargo it might be the difference between a Vexor gank plus tags for sec being +5 million EV and -7 million EV).

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
#12 - 2015-11-27 04:59:26 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:
Paul Pohl wrote:
Of course if the bounty system were fixed - there might be a way to make banking work


Bounty system has been reworked & is fine.


I wouldn't call it fine, a large bounty poses little to no danger to a character outside of unpredictable edge cases (e.g. if you have an Iteron with 60m in cargo it might be the difference between a Vexor gank plus tags for sec being +5 million EV and -7 million EV).


Any change proposed will result in ppl abusing it, simple as that.

Im guessing you weren't playing b4 they fixed it.

@JerryTPepridge
Adunh Slavy
#13 - 2015-11-27 16:02:53 UTC
With out an enforcement mechanism, it's all moot.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2015-11-27 21:21:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Paul Pohl wrote:
Of course if the bounty system were fixed - there might be a way to make banking work


Or the contract system. Allow for negative values so that a contract could in effect become a loan/bond with collateral.

Edit: The other problem with trying to use the bounty system is it basically entails throwing good money after bad. Putting a bounty on someone's head is not going to do me any good at getting my money back, in fact I'll have to pay out again and the costs of getting killed in game are rather low.

An enforcement mechanism would basically let me tap into their income stream, seize ISK in their wallets, and follow the ISK as well, so transferring it to an ALT wouldn't work. It becomes a considerable hassle for CCP...so their likely reaction is to make scamming illegal...which would be a shame.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#15 - 2015-11-27 22:07:18 UTC
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:

Im guessing you weren't playing b4 they fixed it.


I am the person that raised the tickets that got two of the biggest exploits with the Retribution system closed; particularly the gold pod exploit. I understand the past and present bounty systems very well.

Changing 20% payout to 30, 35 or 40% payout would not open any new exploitable loopholes but would make bounties impactful for the first time ever.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2015-11-27 23:11:19 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:

Im guessing you weren't playing b4 they fixed it.


I am the person that raised the tickets that got two of the biggest exploits with the Retribution system closed; particularly the gold pod exploit. I understand the past and present bounty systems very well.

Changing 20% payout to 30, 35 or 40% payout would not open any new exploitable loopholes but would make bounties impactful for the first time ever.



What was the gold pod exploit?
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
#17 - 2015-11-27 23:34:06 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:

Im guessing you weren't playing b4 they fixed it.


I am the person that raised the tickets that got two of the biggest exploits with the Retribution system closed; particularly the gold pod exploit. I understand the past and present bounty systems very well.

Changing 20% payout to 30, 35 or 40% payout would not open any new exploitable loopholes but would make bounties impactful for the first time ever.


fair enough, a change of % seems reasonable, i thought you were saying the entire thing was garbage, i do recall smashing a scrub with a bounty and i got like 2m from it, not a bad cherry on top, havent noticed much else though

@JerryTPepridge
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#18 - 2015-11-28 02:12:13 UTC
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:
Paul Pohl wrote:
Of course if the bounty system were fixed - there might be a way to make banking work


Bounty system has been reworked & is fine.


I wouldn't call it fine, a large bounty poses little to no danger to a character outside of unpredictable edge cases (e.g. if you have an Iteron with 60m in cargo it might be the difference between a Vexor gank plus tags for sec being +5 million EV and -7 million EV).


Any change proposed will result in ppl abusing it, simple as that.

Im guessing you weren't playing b4 they fixed it.


Actually I was

And they haven't fixed it, because it never worked... ever... period... full stop....
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#19 - 2015-11-28 02:22:19 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:

Im guessing you weren't playing b4 they fixed it.


I am the person that raised the tickets that got two of the biggest exploits with the Retribution system closed; particularly the gold pod exploit. I understand the past and present bounty systems very well.

Changing 20% payout to 30, 35 or 40% payout would not open any new exploitable loopholes but would make bounties impactful for the first time ever.


Or you could make the character unplayable for 1 hour per 100,00 isk - and possibly a reduction in skill points if they are caught in high-sec - to represent jail time if they get caught (and by caught I mean podded)

And make it so you can only issue bounties if you have kill rights against the character

Which seems a nice balance