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[December] Balance Smorgasbord

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Author
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#601 - 2015-11-24 16:42:22 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread.
After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes.
We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release.


What about the comet? It completely overshadows the other navy frigs. Take away some of its dronebay/bandwidth at least.

What are your plans for the muninn which has completely lost its role since the navy cane? Will we see a proper minmatar brawler HAC?

Sure structure tanking tristans are annoying, but managable. Comets are just outright OP. they have almost the same base structure/armor/shield as a destroyer and drones w/ replacements..



you actually think the muninn was good before the bc buffs?


It had its niche as a decent tracking alpha boat. Never thought it was "good" per say, but it was fun to alpha frigs with while going 3k/s (OH). It was poor in most fleet settings and barely managable in a solo role. The fleet cane is cheaper or on par in price, has better alpha, tracking, dps and more drones/utility. Plus it can sport a better tank than the muninn. It eclipses it in a fleet role short of speed/sig.

So yea the muninn has always been pretty poor, but with the fleet cane out, there is 0 reason to use one except for lulz.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#602 - 2015-11-24 16:47:45 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread.
After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes.
We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release.


What about the comet? It completely overshadows the other navy frigs. Take away some of its dronebay/bandwidth at least.

What are your plans for the muninn which has completely lost its role since the navy cane? Will we see a proper minmatar brawler HAC?

Sure structure tanking tristans are annoying, but managable. Comets are just outright OP. they have almost the same base structure/armor/shield as a destroyer and drones w/ replacements..



you actually think the muninn was good before the bc buffs?


It had its niche as a decent tracking alpha boat. Never thought it was "good" per say, but it was fun to alpha frigs with while going 3k/s (OH). It was poor in most fleet settings and barely managable in a solo role. The fleet cane is cheaper or on par in price, has better alpha, tracking, dps and more drones/utility. Plus it can sport a better tank than the muninn. It eclipses it in a fleet role short of speed/sig.

So yea the muninn has always been pretty poor, but with the fleet cane out, there is 0 reason to use one except for lulz.


but speed and sig is the entire point of using smaller ships. I could go for a minmatar missile hac, preferably not kiteshit.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#603 - 2015-11-24 16:56:14 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread.
After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes.
We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release.


What about the comet? It completely overshadows the other navy frigs. Take away some of its dronebay/bandwidth at least.

What are your plans for the muninn which has completely lost its role since the navy cane? Will we see a proper minmatar brawler HAC?

Sure structure tanking tristans are annoying, but managable. Comets are just outright OP. they have almost the same base structure/armor/shield as a destroyer and drones w/ replacements..



you actually think the muninn was good before the bc buffs?


It had its niche as a decent tracking alpha boat. Never thought it was "good" per say, but it was fun to alpha frigs with while going 3k/s (OH). It was poor in most fleet settings and barely managable in a solo role. The fleet cane is cheaper or on par in price, has better alpha, tracking, dps and more drones/utility. Plus it can sport a better tank than the muninn. It eclipses it in a fleet role short of speed/sig.

So yea the muninn has always been pretty poor, but with the fleet cane out, there is 0 reason to use one except for lulz.


but speed and sig is the entire point of using smaller ships. I could go for a minmatar missile hac, preferably not kiteshit.


Depends on the role. For me speed and sig are not an issue when using my arty kite cane. It has such good tracking and alpha, most of the smaller **** can be popped before theyre even an issue. Against bigger things the raw alpha will normally bypass active tanks and bleed structure.

In a fleet setting against BS, sure prob not a good idea. But against other BCs or cruisers, it will still work well and sport a better tank in either config than the muninn.
Matthew Dust
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#604 - 2015-11-24 16:59:46 UTC
no need to take t3's out of small plexes, just a need to make assault frigates more viable, they have good tank, decent damage, making them suitable for heavy tackle, just give them hardcore heavy tackle bonus, let them use that focused warp disruption script, and an extra mid. Even if you take them out, it's not going to solve the issue of garmurs in small plexes that have so much initial velocity going that they burn out of the initial scram range
Rodent Sie
W.O.R.M-S.W.A.R.M
#605 - 2015-11-25 01:54:32 UTC
31 pages of content regarding the nerfing of ships... and not one post that asks the obvious question, where is the nerf bat regarding the catalyst? Obviously it is OP as hell or all the high sec gankers wouldn't be exclusively using this ship to gank the poor helpless miners.
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#606 - 2015-11-25 02:11:24 UTC
Rodent Sie wrote:
31 pages of content regarding the nerfing of ships... and not one post that asks the obvious question, where is the nerf bat regarding the catalyst? Obviously it is OP as hell or all the high sec gankers wouldn't be exclusively using this ship to gank the poor helpless miners.

cata is only op at ganking. it isnt op at fighting at all. which is why its no where in the rest of eve.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#607 - 2015-11-25 03:55:42 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:


5 drones not 9


Blow up drones, profit.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#608 - 2015-11-25 07:16:58 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread.
After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes.
We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release.


you should properly fix hull tanking, put a penalty on the rigs or something. they're way too good and have pretty much broken novice plex afterburner warrioring.


I like hull tanking as it is but I think turret ships should get the main use of it instead of drone boats, also some amarr boats should get a hull buff to give them an alternative to armor tanking for solo. So for frigs I think Tristan was best, why not give it to atron and executioner instead? For destroyers give it to coercer and catalyst instead of dragoon and algos, for cruisers give more hull hp to omen and thorax instead of the vexor and so on. It just suits turrets better than drones, and it gives armor ships a closer equivalent to shield tanking.
Goldensaver
Something Went Wrong
#609 - 2015-11-25 16:46:21 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread.
After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes.
We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release.


you should properly fix hull tanking, put a penalty on the rigs or something. they're way too good and have pretty much broken novice plex afterburner warrioring.


I like hull tanking as it is but I think turret ships should get the main use of it instead of drone boats, also some amarr boats should get a hull buff to give them an alternative to armor tanking for solo. So for frigs I think Tristan was best, why not give it to atron and executioner instead? For destroyers give it to coercer and catalyst instead of dragoon and algos, for cruisers give more hull hp to omen and thorax instead of the vexor and so on. It just suits turrets better than drones, and it gives armor ships a closer equivalent to shield tanking.


The issue with hull tanking is that there is no drawback to it. There is no penalty. Armour has mass and speed penalties, shield has it a bit better with sig radius penalties. But hull doesn't have ****. A bit of agility and cargo space. There should be at least a bit more of an agility penalty.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#610 - 2015-11-25 18:03:52 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread.
After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes.
We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release.


you should properly fix hull tanking, put a penalty on the rigs or something. they're way too good and have pretty much broken novice plex afterburner warrioring.


I like hull tanking as it is but I think turret ships should get the main use of it instead of drone boats, also some amarr boats should get a hull buff to give them an alternative to armor tanking for solo. So for frigs I think Tristan was best, why not give it to atron and executioner instead? For destroyers give it to coercer and catalyst instead of dragoon and algos, for cruisers give more hull hp to omen and thorax instead of the vexor and so on. It just suits turrets better than drones, and it gives armor ships a closer equivalent to shield tanking.


The issue with hull tanking is that there is no drawback to it. There is no penalty. Armour has mass and speed penalties, shield has it a bit better with sig radius penalties. But hull doesn't have ****. A bit of agility and cargo space. There should be at least a bit more of an agility penalty.


it's also omni-resists and capless, there's just no counterplay at all. really bad and not fun once you get over the 'lol hull tanking so funny' aspect. you don't even get the agility penalty if you're running aar + just hull rigs, like is optimal on a tristan or comet (which were already the best frigates before hull rigs were added).

I'd suggest just removing it from the game because it's dumb.
Paladin Genghis Khanid
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#611 - 2015-11-26 04:34:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Paladin Genghis Khanid
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread.
After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes.
We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release.



How about limiting its drone range?
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#612 - 2015-11-26 12:36:17 UTC
Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread.
After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes.
We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release.



How about limiting its drone range?


Or how about a fitting restriction for bulkheads?

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Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#613 - 2015-11-26 23:16:28 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread.
After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes.
We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release.


you should properly fix hull tanking, put a penalty on the rigs or something. they're way too good and have pretty much broken novice plex afterburner warrioring.


I like hull tanking as it is but I think turret ships should get the main use of it instead of drone boats, also some amarr boats should get a hull buff to give them an alternative to armor tanking for solo. So for frigs I think Tristan was best, why not give it to atron and executioner instead? For destroyers give it to coercer and catalyst instead of dragoon and algos, for cruisers give more hull hp to omen and thorax instead of the vexor and so on. It just suits turrets better than drones, and it gives armor ships a closer equivalent to shield tanking.


The issue with hull tanking is that there is no drawback to it. There is no penalty. Armour has mass and speed penalties, shield has it a bit better with sig radius penalties. But hull doesn't have ****. A bit of agility and cargo space. There should be at least a bit more of an agility penalty.


it's also omni-resists and capless, there's just no counterplay at all. really bad and not fun once you get over the 'lol hull tanking so funny' aspect. you don't even get the agility penalty if you're running aar + just hull rigs, like is optimal on a tristan or comet (which were already the best frigates before hull rigs were added).

I'd suggest just removing it from the game because it's dumb.


It's just a decent buffer tank there's no way to active tank with it and no way to get reps, after nearly every fight you have to dock up and repair. It only really works on a few ships and even those are usually fit with armor or shield instead so it's not like you get amazing tank out of it, you get okay tank but you don't have to use many fitting slots to get a respectable tank, that's why we use it... it's not for omni resists because 60% resist profile is not special, and nearly all armor and shield buffer tanks are capless anyway (apart from invuln fields which are not that common in pvp)

most tristans are shield tanked, but well I always used the Hull tanked tristan so i won't argue there it is very strong, same with the comet it was already very strong before hull tanking. But this is why i say make it an option for some of the lesser used ships in the game instead of the already good ships getting even more of a buff.
Dantelion Shinoni
The Black Squad
#614 - 2015-11-27 01:29:41 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread.
After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes.
We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release.


What about the comet? It completely overshadows the other navy frigs. Take away some of its dronebay/bandwidth at least.[...]

Sure structure tanking tristans are annoying, but managable. Comets are just outright OP. they have almost the same base structure/armor/shield as a destroyer and drones w/ replacements..



It's the Gallente poster boy in FW, so you won't see it get nerfed ever :^)

Seriously though, the problem is not stricture tanking on Tristans, it's that them being pure drone boats frees a lot of fitting space they can abuse.

Doing some micro-nerfs is useless, and at worst smells of wanting to fake a proper balancing of it.

Address the fitting space as a Drone boat of the Tristan or just admit you want the ship to stay oppressive.

(Approximately) Same thing for the Comet.
Davis TetrisKing
The Vendunari
End of Life
#615 - 2015-11-27 02:06:56 UTC
I'm really surprised at the Tristan hull nerf. I mean hull tristans are good, but I still see a lot more kitey shield tristans out there. I think the biggest advantage of the tristan is that drones are so versatile. There is no limit on engagement range and you don't need the high slots, which frees up a lot of PG/CPU or gives you lots of options for utility highs.

It seems the issue people have with tristans is their versatility. They can be shield, armor or hull tanked, active or passive tanked, brawlers or kiters. And they have enough drones/drone hp that they'll kill you 1v1 before you can chew through all their drones. When you come across one in FW it's a pretty big gamble as to how they're fit.

I dont know how to balance this, but I think nerfing their hull just takes away one of the more interesting things about them, but largely leaves the main issues untouched.

I think the nerfs could be applied to drones themselves, especially considering how many of the nerfs recently have been to done boats (Ishtar, Gila, Worm, Tristan). Not just flat dps nerfs, but things like slowing their MWD speeds so that kiting drones is a normal thing to do, or making ewar effective against them, such as making webs and scrams affect all 5 drones if put on one of them or on the main ship (obviously this would have to be balanced properly, negating all 5 drones by kiting with 1 web could be devastating for some ships, but it would kind of mean the drone boat would have to get into brawl range to web their target themselves, I kind of see it as fair enough).

Anyway, just my 5c. Sad to see the hero Tristan getting a large nerf but largely leaving the more popular builds fairly untouched.
Alxephon
Red Sun Foundation
Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
#616 - 2015-11-27 04:14:15 UTC
How is it even possible to hit the Osprey Navy Issue and still miss the Caracal Navy Issue. It's worse than its T1 counterpart by a mile. The Exequror Navy issue is also still very underwhelming while the ONI and VNI come out leagues beyond other cruisers in their class for solo/small gang and the Augoror Navy Issue is clearly on top in regard to fleets.

I'm not saying they should all be exactly the same, but they should all have at least a decent engagement profile.
Paladin Genghis Khanid
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#617 - 2015-11-27 23:38:51 UTC
Dantelion Shinoni wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread.
After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes.
We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release.


What about the comet? It completely overshadows the other navy frigs. Take away some of its dronebay/bandwidth at least.[...]

Sure structure tanking tristans are annoying, but managable. Comets are just outright OP. they have almost the same base structure/armor/shield as a destroyer and drones w/ replacements..



It's the Gallente poster boy in FW, so you won't see it get nerfed ever :^)

Seriously though, the problem is not stricture tanking on Tristans, it's that them being pure drone boats frees a lot of fitting space they can abuse.

Doing some micro-nerfs is useless, and at worst smells of wanting to fake a proper balancing of it.

Address the fitting space as a Drone boat of the Tristan or just admit you want the ship to stay oppressive.

(Approximately) Same thing for the Comet.


CCP has a clear Gallente bias. Even the rookie ship is objectively better than all the rest. They leave no stone unturned in their quest to make the "progressive liberals" dominate :)
Ray P
Karma and Causality
#618 - 2015-11-27 23:46:11 UTC
Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote:
Dantelion Shinoni wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread.
After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes.
We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release.


What about the comet? It completely overshadows the other navy frigs. Take away some of its dronebay/bandwidth at least.[...]

Sure structure tanking tristans are annoying, but managable. Comets are just outright OP. they have almost the same base structure/armor/shield as a destroyer and drones w/ replacements..



It's the Gallente poster boy in FW, so you won't see it get nerfed ever :^)

Seriously though, the problem is not stricture tanking on Tristans, it's that them being pure drone boats frees a lot of fitting space they can abuse.

Doing some micro-nerfs is useless, and at worst smells of wanting to fake a proper balancing of it.

Address the fitting space as a Drone boat of the Tristan or just admit you want the ship to stay oppressive.

(Approximately) Same thing for the Comet.


CCP has a clear Gallente bias. Even the rookie ship is objectively better than all the rest. They leave no stone unturned in their quest to make the "progressive liberals" dominate :)


Galluminati confirmed
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#619 - 2015-11-30 11:21:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
What can the new punisher do that a slicer doesn't just do better? 4 effective turrets for the cost of 2? Slicer does more damage. Tanking? Slicer's natural navy stats and better fitting let it tank better.

The new punisher can certainly compete with these changes; it won't be the worst frigate in the game anymore. But the chosen changes don't really let it fill any role that is not done better by something else, excepting as a cheap slicer alternative for newbies or zerging.

The missile idea was promoted because it would have given the punisher a unique role to fill in the amarr t1 frigate lineup. Tiercide was done to add unique roles and eliminate tiered ship line ups, yet the changes here are just enforcing the punisher's place as 'the ship you use only until you can use something better'.
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#620 - 2015-11-30 11:43:15 UTC
Terranid Meester wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:


5 drones not 9


Blow up drones, profit.


have you actually tried to blow up 9 drones without dying?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*