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New Planetary Interaction skill ideas

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Author
Supreme Authority
Pure Win Society
0 Phux Given
#1 - 2015-11-23 18:46:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Supreme Authority
Planetary Interaction has been a staple of EVE for quite some time but has changed very little over the years. As someone that has worked with it quite extensively there are a few small changes I would enjoy seeing go into place that I believe would make it considerably more viable as an EVE career path and method for funding your characters. The idea focuses primarily on two (or four, depending on dev and player support) new skills:

Extraction Efficiency (2% greater extractor output per level)
and
Environmental Preservation (2% less global resource removal from extraction per level)

Which would yield marginal differences of 10% for each at max level. Not a major change overall as only one of these changes would directly change output levels, but enough to make being a planetary overlord a viable thing. This could be taken a step farther with Advanced versions of each of these skills (at 2% or 3% per level, 3% yielding a grand total of 25% change in each area from both skills combined). Hit me with the feedback, I'm sure most of it will be salty and negative. Lol
ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#2 - 2015-11-23 18:57:23 UTC
This thread has been moved to Features and Ideas.

ISD Max Trix

Lieutenant

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to EVE mails about forum moderation.

Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2015-11-23 20:22:25 UTC
Only if other players can orbitally bombard PI installations, completely obliterating selective bases.

In reality, no. It is already too much riskless isk. I would support new mechanics, but not wider isk faucets.

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#4 - 2015-11-23 20:30:08 UTC
In after the Move!

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log

Supreme Authority
Pure Win Society
0 Phux Given
#5 - 2015-11-23 20:52:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Supreme Authority
Zimmer Jones wrote:
Only if other players can orbitally bombard PI installations, completely obliterating selective bases.

In reality, no. It is already too much riskless isk. I would support new mechanics, but not wider isk faucets.

I would support bombardment of PI installations if defenses for them could also be built. The problem is that gets into much more than a simple change. Adding skills is relatively easy and not costly in dev-man-hours. Restructuring the system with entirely new functionality and gameplay isn't.

Also, as PI goods are not sold to NPCs but to other players they are not an isk faucet any more than moon mining is one. It is the same principle. They only move currently existing isk from one person to another during transactions, they don't generate new isk at any point.
Darth Squeemus
Doomheim
#6 - 2015-11-23 21:54:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Squeemus
Supreme Authority wrote:
I would support bombardment of PI installations if defenses for them could also be built. The problem is that gets into much more than a simple change. Adding skills is relatively easy and not costly in dev-man-hours. Restructuring the system with entirely new functionality and gameplay isn't.

Also, as PI goods are not sold to NPCs but to other players they are not an isk faucet any more than moon mining is one. It is the same principle. They only move currently existing isk from one person to another during transactions, they don't generate new isk at any point.


PI kind of is an isk faucet. You're generating isk from a planet. It isn't being transferred from planet-side players to your wallet. You're collecting valuable commodities that regenerate on a regular basis and then selling them to players who have isk and want what you have.

I'm not against PI changes, and I'm certainly not against making it more valuable. But I agree that there needs to be more risk before the reward is increased. I like the idea of PI orbital bombardment and I like the idea of defensive structures, but it would need to be balanced out. You can't say that the increased reward is balanced by giving other players the ability to bombard your settlements, then turn around and set up a bunch of high-power defenses that can effectively ward off several ships. But if your defense system can't ward off several ships, then it's pretty much useless.

Maybe introduce a new mechanic for attacking PI installations that operates similarly to drones or fighters. The drones (or in-atmosphere fighters, or whatever you want to call them) that you would use would be half the size of light drones and would deal significantly less damage, but an amount that makes sense for shooting at buildings and people/droids/whatever the hell occupies PI installations. A damage percentage for each building could be displayed, and the efficiency of each building would be reduced by x amount for each percentage closer to 100%. For example, your Phallus Palace normally creates 2000 black dildos per cycle, but at 10% damage it creates 1800 per cycle, and at 20% it creates 1600/cyc. Building won't need to reach 100% damage to be rendered inoperable. They could stop running programs or producing materials at, say...75-80%-ish.

So the owner of the installation can receive a notification that his installation is under attack, just like pos structures. The attacking pilot has a chance to screw up a PI installation, which I can see putting a nifty new spin on ganking depending on how Crimewatch responds to attacking PI installations, but the attacking pilot can't instantly destroy an entire installation. This seems like it would be pretty fairly balanced for the installation owner. The only part I haven't considered, however, is where the reward would be for the attacking pilot. Why take the time to attack a PI installation and run the risk of the owner's corp retaliating with a blob if there's no reward to be gained?

Edit: Sorry for the comment about dildos. The idea was flowing and I wasn't going to stop to search for words. Dildo was the first thing that...CAME...to mind. Lol. Don't ask why, I don't have an answer for you. My mind is just odd that way, I guess.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#7 - 2015-11-23 22:09:32 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Darth Squeemus wrote:


PI kind of is an isk faucet.



No, it isn't.

Quote:
You're generating isk from a planet.



No, you're generating planetary commodities from a planet.

Quote:
It isn't being transferred from planet-side players to your wallet. You're collecting valuable commodities that regenerate on a regular basis and then selling them to players who have isk and want what you have.


This distinction is absolutely meaningless. A faucet generates NEW ISK. Existing ISK changing hands is never a "faucet". PI, in fact, is an ISK sink, as it generates no new ISK, but results in the destruction of ISK through command centers (NPC sold), planetary building costs and, in high sec, the NPC portion of import and export taxes.

In the long term, the proposed skills would likely not make PI more valuable (and certainly not to the tune of 10%). Increased supply without an accompanying increase in demand simply means PI goods would be worth a little bit less, on average

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Supreme Authority
Pure Win Society
0 Phux Given
#8 - 2015-11-23 22:23:53 UTC
Darth Squeemus wrote:
Supreme Authority wrote:
I would support bombardment of PI installations if defenses for them could also be built. The problem is that gets into much more than a simple change. Adding skills is relatively easy and not costly in dev-man-hours. Restructuring the system with entirely new functionality and gameplay isn't.

Also, as PI goods are not sold to NPCs but to other players they are not an isk faucet any more than moon mining is one. It is the same principle. They only move currently existing isk from one person to another during transactions, they don't generate new isk at any point.


Why take the time to attack a PI installation and run the risk of the owner's corp retaliating with a blob if there's no reward to be gained?

Edit: Sorry for the comment about dildos. The idea was flowing and I wasn't going to stop to search for words. Dildo was the first thing that...CAME...to mind. Lol. Don't ask why, I don't have an answer for you. My mind is just odd that way, I guess.

Kill mails is the only provocation 99.9996% of all PVPers require.
Darth Squeemus
Doomheim
#9 - 2015-11-23 22:28:10 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Darth Squeemus wrote:
You're generating isk from a planet.



No, you're generating planetary commodities from a planet.


Planetary commodities = isk, do they not? I mean sure, you can choose to use your PI to make things that you're going to use rather than sell, such as fuel, but it still carries a market value. If I have a car that's worth $10k U.S.D., then I have $10k U.S.D. Just because my money is invested into an asset and isn't liquid doesn't mean that I don't have money. And yes, PI is also an isk sink due to such and such, but it pays off in the long run because you're making more than you're spending anyway. If the cost of buying a command center, building costs, and hi sec taxes is greater than your return, then what's the point of even doing PI in the first place. It's an isk faucet because you can set up an installation on I believe up to 6 different planets, set programs on all of them and let them run for a few days, come back, and collect your isk. Oh, sorry. Your commodities, which are basically place holders for isk if you choose to use them as such.


Supreme Authority
Pure Win Society
0 Phux Given
#10 - 2015-11-24 02:03:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Supreme Authority
Darth Squeemus wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Darth Squeemus wrote:
You're generating isk from a planet.



No, you're generating planetary commodities from a planet.


Planetary commodities = isk, do they not? I mean sure, you can choose to use your PI to make things that you're going to use rather than sell, such as fuel, but it still carries a market value. If I have a car that's worth $10k U.S.D., then I have $10k U.S.D. Just because my money is invested into an asset and isn't liquid doesn't mean that I don't have money. And yes, PI is also an isk sink due to such and such, but it pays off in the long run because you're making more than you're spending anyway. If the cost of buying a command center, building costs, and hi sec taxes is greater than your return, then what's the point of even doing PI in the first place. It's an isk faucet because you can set up an installation on I believe up to 6 different planets, set programs on all of them and let them run for a few days, come back, and collect your isk. Oh, sorry. Your commodities, which are basically place holders for isk if you choose to use them as such.



It seems you're confusing profits with faucets. Faucets create new ISK that didn't exist beforehand, or atleast ISK that no one had access to before then. That is not the same as ISK being moved from one player to another. Bounties are the biggest faucet as it is moving ISK from NPC hands into the hands of players.

It could be argued, based on this, that PI is one of the biggest faucets. However PI goods are not the only commodities in EVE, assuming they are even lumped in to that category at all instead of another.
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2015-11-24 02:20:36 UTC
Alright, my semantic mistake, Material faucets, resulting in isk transfers. Still free and riskless, still a no.

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#12 - 2015-11-24 03:39:43 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Darth Squeemus wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Darth Squeemus wrote:
You're generating isk from a planet.



No, you're generating planetary commodities from a planet.


Planetary commodities = isk, do they not? I mean sure, you can choose to use your PI to make things that you're going to use rather than sell, such as fuel, but it still carries a market value. If I have a car that's worth $10k U.S.D., then I have $10k U.S.D. Just because my money is invested into an asset and isn't liquid doesn't mean that I don't have money. And yes, PI is also an isk sink due to such and such, but it pays off in the long run because you're making more than you're spending anyway. If the cost of buying a command center, building costs, and hi sec taxes is greater than your return, then what's the point of even doing PI in the first place. It's an isk faucet because you can set up an installation on I believe up to 6 different planets, set programs on all of them and let them run for a few days, come back, and collect your isk. Oh, sorry. Your commodities, which are basically place holders for isk if you choose to use them as such.




What part of NEW ISK didn't you grasp?

This is very simple ****.

Suppose Bob and Tom are the only two players in the game. They each possess 100 ISK, so the economy has, in total, 200 isk.

Bob makes some PI crap and sells it to Tom for 50 isk. Now Bob has 150 isk and Tom has 50. The economy still has 200 isk, in total. This last bit is only thing you really need to know to determine if it is an "isk faucet".

Calling it an isk faucet is always 100% wrong. That term has a very specific meaning which clearly escapes you.

They are not "placeholders for isk if you choose to use them as such" because it actually requires someone else choosing to use their ISK in the transaction, as well. The quantity of ISK in the economy remains identical - it only changes hands.


Quote:
It could be argued, based on this, that PI is one of the biggest faucets. However PI goods are not the only commodities in EVE, assuming they are even lumped in to that category at all instead of another.


No, that can't be argued. First hint: The section you're looking at is very clearly labelled "NPC MARKET". This is ISK introduced to the economy from an NPC purchasing something from a player. Problematically, there is no NPC market for PI commodities. They don't buy them.

That section is basically various bounty tokens (sleeper blue loot being the largest chunk, overseer's effects, etc.) and actual NPC trade goods (e.g., long-limb roes).

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Supreme Authority
Pure Win Society
0 Phux Given
#13 - 2015-11-24 04:57:29 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Darth Squeemus wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Darth Squeemus wrote:
You're generating isk from a planet.



No, you're generating planetary commodities from a planet.


Planetary commodities = isk, do they not? I mean sure, you can choose to use your PI to make things that you're going to use rather than sell, such as fuel, but it still carries a market value. If I have a car that's worth $10k U.S.D., then I have $10k U.S.D. Just because my money is invested into an asset and isn't liquid doesn't mean that I don't have money. And yes, PI is also an isk sink due to such and such, but it pays off in the long run because you're making more than you're spending anyway. If the cost of buying a command center, building costs, and hi sec taxes is greater than your return, then what's the point of even doing PI in the first place. It's an isk faucet because you can set up an installation on I believe up to 6 different planets, set programs on all of them and let them run for a few days, come back, and collect your isk. Oh, sorry. Your commodities, which are basically place holders for isk if you choose to use them as such.




What part of NEW ISK didn't you grasp?

This is very simple ****.

Suppose Bob and Tom are the only two players in the game. They each possess 100 ISK, so the economy has, in total, 200 isk.

Bob makes some PI crap and sells it to Tom for 50 isk. Now Bob has 150 isk and Tom has 50. The economy still has 200 isk, in total. This last bit is only thing you really need to know to determine if it is an "isk faucet".

Calling it an isk faucet is always 100% wrong. That term has a very specific meaning which clearly escapes you.

They are not "placeholders for isk if you choose to use them as such" because it actually requires someone else choosing to use their ISK in the transaction, as well. The quantity of ISK in the economy remains identical - it only changes hands.


Quote:
It could be argued, based on this, that PI is one of the biggest faucets. However PI goods are not the only commodities in EVE, assuming they are even lumped in to that category at all instead of another.


This is ISK introduced to the economy from an NPC purchasing something from a player.

That section is basically various bounty tokens (sleeper blue loot being the largest chunk, overseer's effects, etc.) and actual NPC trade goods (e.g., long-limb roes).

I see. Good to know and thank you for the correction. :)
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2015-11-24 05:39:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
I support anything that will reduce the viability margin for PI alts, bringing a larger fraction of the income to mainaholics. Adding a higher SP curve would help, increasing output without increasing demand will also help.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#15 - 2015-11-24 06:03:45 UTC
these skills would likely be a must-have for everyone doing serious PI, therefore, your PI prices go down due to constant demand, no change in isk made (in fact, assuming export/import taxes, slightly less).

you want PI prices to go up, ask for more things to use PI

that said, I can see the allure of decreasing the planetary depletion rate.....

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.

Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2015-11-24 09:16:14 UTC
Supreme Authority wrote:
Planetary Interaction has been a staple of EVE for quite some time but has changed very little over the years. As someone that has worked with it quite extensively there are a few small changes I would enjoy seeing go into place that I believe would make it considerably more viable as an EVE career path and method for funding your characters. The idea focuses primarily on two (or four, depending on dev and player support) new skills:

Extraction Efficiency (2% greater extractor output per level)
and
Environmental Preservation (2% less global resource removal from extraction per level)

Which would yield marginal differences of 10% for each at max level. Not a major change overall as only one of these changes would directly change output levels, but enough to make being a planetary overlord a viable thing. This could be taken a step farther with Advanced versions of each of these skills (at 2% or 3% per level, 3% yielding a grand total of 25% change in each area from both skills combined). Hit me with the feedback, I'm sure most of it will be salty and negative. Lol


PI is already a system where you have to do so little work to get something, it didnĀ“t deserve a buff. It deserves to be more of an activity.

-1
Regulus Scyssor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2015-11-24 10:44:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Regulus Scyssor
45 mills for upper my PI items to custom this morning, PI is a greater isk sink!

PI is secure? ask the gang that haunted me for three jumps

Good skill for PI:

Customer relations (or similar): 10% reduction in planetary transfer taxes per level (as market skills)

Sit station traders are more secures and have skills to reduce taxes

Venture is love

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#18 - 2015-11-24 11:58:38 UTC
PI is a PITA to set up. Once set up is pretty much free income. It's crazy lucrative right now. It deffo doesn't need to be more.

PROHINT: If your PI isn't paying for your PLEX then you are doing it in the wrong area of eve. Which is the rub with your idea. HS PI sux. HS PI in a busy area really really sux. On the other end of the spectrum WH (-1.0 truesec) is pretty easy and crazy lucrative. PI is pretty well balanced right out of the box. You wanna run missions in HS - you get crappy PI. You want to live out on the edge in WH space - you get a lot of PI income. Risk / reward is pretty good.

If you want to make PI better, figure out a way to bypass the 'death by a 1000 clicks' setup process. Being able to swap stuff in a reasonable fasion would probably go a longer way in making PI more productive. We've all been: 'Sigh, I should swap this setup to (fill in good PI idea), but I only have 3 hours before I go to bed and I don't want to spend half of it swapping a PI setup' at which point we leave the same played out setup for one more day (week, month).

Raising PI output by 25% would overload my process streams - forcing me to train the power grid upgrade skill to 5 just to keep up with the incoming P0 materials.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#19 - 2015-11-24 12:00:14 UTC
Regulus Scyssor wrote:
45 mills for upper my PI items to custom this morning, PI is a greater isk sink!

PI is secure? ask the gang that haunted me for three jumps

Good skill for PI:

Customer relations (or similar): 10% reduction in planetary transfer taxes per level (as market skills)

Sit station traders are more secures and have skills to reduce taxes



The skills you speak of reduce NPC taxes in stations. The skills you recommend reduce player set taxes on player owned pocos. You're comparing apples and oranges.
Supreme Authority
Pure Win Society
0 Phux Given
#20 - 2015-11-24 13:58:01 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
PI is a PITA to set up. Once set up is pretty much free income. It's crazy lucrative right now. It deffo doesn't need to be more.

PROHINT: If your PI isn't paying for your PLEX then you are doing it in the wrong area of eve. Which is the rub with your idea. HS PI sux. HS PI in a busy area really really sux. On the other end of the spectrum WH (-1.0 truesec) is pretty easy and crazy lucrative. PI is pretty well balanced right out of the box. You wanna run missions in HS - you get crappy PI. You want to live out on the edge in WH space - you get a lot of PI income. Risk / reward is pretty good.

If you want to make PI better, figure out a way to bypass the 'death by a 1000 clicks' setup process. Being able to swap stuff in a reasonable fasion would probably go a longer way in making PI more productive. We've all been: 'Sigh, I should swap this setup to (fill in good PI idea), but I only have 3 hours before I go to bed and I don't want to spend half of it swapping a PI setup' at which point we leave the same played out setup for one more day (week, month).

Raising PI output by 25% would overload my process streams - forcing me to train the power grid upgrade skill to 5 just to keep up with the incoming P0 materials.

Power Grid Management affects PI also? That's a new one on me, I was under the impression it only affected ships. Can anyone confirm this? Or did you mean upgrading the command center fully?
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