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What is the current state of Null-Sec?

Author
Hofhadalos
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-11-24 01:56:19 UTC
I recently started playing a few days ago, and I've been hearing a few conflicting opinions regarding the state of Null-Sec. From some places I hear that the Imperium is basically a superpower with no one that can challenge it, and in other places I hear that it's just slander spread by people that just don't like the Imperium, or more specifically Goonswarm.

So I'm wondering, just how much of that is true and what isn't?
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2015-11-24 02:01:47 UTC
I live in provi. I am not a sov holder. I do what I want when I want and stuff happens around me.

I'm sure that if you wanted to fight goons you could find someone who is. However being part of or fighting the largest power block in all of null sec is not the only thing to do in null sec.

Instead of asking what everyone else is doing why don't you explain what it is that you like to do or are interested in trying and we'll give some advice on how to make that happen or where you can find it.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Hofhadalos
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2015-11-24 02:21:16 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
I live in provi. I am not a sov holder. I do what I want when I want and stuff happens around me.

I'm sure that if you wanted to fight goons you could find someone who is. However being part of or fighting the largest power block in all of null sec is not the only thing to do in null sec.

Instead of asking what everyone else is doing why don't you explain what it is that you like to do or are interested in trying and we'll give some advice on how to make that happen or where you can find it.

What I would like to do is be a part of a smaller corporation that owns some space in Null-Sec, and engages in minor skirmishes with neighbors. What I'm wondering is whether or not most this is the state of most of Null-Sec, and the Imperium and its opponents are just an exception to that rule
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2015-11-24 02:34:19 UTC
If you can find what you are looking for what do you care what the rest of null sec is doing?

There most certainly are smaller sov holding Alliances out there that do small and medium gang stuff.

I'm not sure why you keep focusing on the big power blocks if that's not something that you are into. I live in null sec full time and have for years. You mentioning "Imperium" is the first time that I've heard that name. I did not know what it was until you said it.

So once again I say what I said before focus on what you are looking for and not what everyone else is doing. I told you that once and you felt the need to re-state your question. IDK who imperium is. I'm not in that Alliance or Coalition or what ever it is so I can not comment on it. If you are not interested in being a part of it then why do you feel the need to keep re-framing the discussion around what you don't want?

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Hofhadalos
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2015-11-24 02:57:37 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
If you can find what you are looking for what do you care what the rest of null sec is doing?

There most certainly are smaller sov holding Alliances out there that do small and medium gang stuff.

I'm not sure why you keep focusing on the big power blocks if that's not something that you are into. I live in null sec full time and have for years. You mentioning "Imperium" is the first time that I've heard that name. I did not know what it was until you said it.

So once again I say what I said before focus on what you are looking for and not what everyone else is doing. I told you that once and you felt the need to re-state your question. IDK who imperium is. I'm not in that Alliance or Coalition or what ever it is so I can not comment on it. If you are not interested in being a part of it then why do you feel the need to keep re-framing the discussion around what you don't want?

Imperium aka CDF aka Goonswarm and friends. As person who before a few days ago never played EVE, whenever I heard news about EVE it usually was about how a huge battle just happened, and it usually involved Goonswarm on one of the sides.

Basically, Goonswarm is portrayed as this unstoppable powerhouse that does whatever it wants, when it wants, and has destroyed and outlasted all of its foes. So my reason for repeating my question is that if all this is true, and Goonswarm truly is unstoppable, then it would make sense to stop and ask whether or not there is a point in joining any corporation that is not a part of its alliance, if the alternative is guaranteed destruction.
Raffael Ramirez
Alcohol Fuelled
#6 - 2015-11-24 03:00:19 UTC
Hofhadalos wrote:
I recently started playing a few days ago, and I've been hearing a few conflicting opinions regarding the state of Null-Sec. From some places I hear that the Imperium is basically a superpower with no one that can challenge it, and in other places I hear that it's just slander spread by people that just don't like the Imperium, or more specifically Goonswarm.

So I'm wondering, just how much of that is true and what isn't?


Well in my humble opinion, you are either in goons or you dislike them like with any other alliance that made an imprint in EVEs history books (PL, BoB, MC, etc..)

As for the superpower - yes basically no one bothers to pick a fight because they are the biggest cow on the farm and removing them would take a lot of effort/coordination and time. So rather than fighting against them they just sit around and complain. Additionally the sov mechanics and the whole game has been broken for a while and ppl generally lost interest. Not the best climate to recruit ppl to put unreasonable amount of work and time into something that might eventually fail or take a very long time. Even if these hypothetical alliances win in the end, what would they have gained ? They would either die up again as PVPers look for the next big thing or replace goons as the biggest cow it is basically a no win scenario unless something drastic changes in the mechanics that would make it worthwhile.

Anyway until that day comes Goons and all the other pets will whore titans and cap ships to increase the threshold even further and make an attempt to fight them basically suicide. Some Goons have voiced an opinion lately that they don't get fights and are frustrated with that, so will be interesting if the famed goons stability fares in the long term.











Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#7 - 2015-11-24 03:13:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Cidanel Afuran
Sov null is only 15% of the accounts in the game. Goons are a smaller subset of that. They love their propaganda. That's what they spend most of the time working on.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2015-11-24 03:18:46 UTC
Hofhadalos wrote:
ergherhdfgh wrote:
If you can find what you are looking for what do you care what the rest of null sec is doing?

There most certainly are smaller sov holding Alliances out there that do small and medium gang stuff.

I'm not sure why you keep focusing on the big power blocks if that's not something that you are into. I live in null sec full time and have for years. You mentioning "Imperium" is the first time that I've heard that name. I did not know what it was until you said it.

So once again I say what I said before focus on what you are looking for and not what everyone else is doing. I told you that once and you felt the need to re-state your question. IDK who imperium is. I'm not in that Alliance or Coalition or what ever it is so I can not comment on it. If you are not interested in being a part of it then why do you feel the need to keep re-framing the discussion around what you don't want?

Imperium aka CDF aka Goonswarm and friends. As person who before a few days ago never played EVE, whenever I heard news about EVE it usually was about how a huge battle just happened, and it usually involved Goonswarm on one of the sides.

Basically, Goonswarm is portrayed as this unstoppable powerhouse that does whatever it wants, when it wants, and has destroyed and outlasted all of its foes. So my reason for repeating my question is that if all this is true, and Goonswarm truly is unstoppable, then it would make sense to stop and ask whether or not there is a point in joining any corporation that is not a part of its alliance, if the alternative is guaranteed destruction.

You can read propaganda or you could play the game.

I do not know how much more precisely I can say this. The type of corp that you claim to be looking for is out there. The type of combat that you claim to be looking for is out there. I've told you probably about a dozen times to stop telling us what you don't want and start looking for what you do want and you keep coming back with telling us what you do not want.

Instead of whinning about goons in the NC Q&A you could be asking how to find a corp that you are looking for. But then again there is a sticky about that just above this post.

Or you could serf the recruiting section of the forum looking for a corp that might be a good fit.

I'll tell you that NRDS seems to be conducive to small and medium gang combat. The main places I can think to find that is the Provi block and the Pheobe Freeport Republic.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#9 - 2015-11-24 03:55:19 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Hofhadalos wrote:
Basically, Goonswarm is portrayed as this unstoppable powerhouse that does whatever it wants, when it wants, and has destroyed and outlasted all of its foes. So my reason for repeating my question is that if all this is true, and Goonswarm truly is unstoppable, then it would make sense to stop and ask whether or not there is a point in joining any corporation that is not a part of its alliance, if the alternative is guaranteed destruction.

Okay... take a step back.

Goonswarm has outlasted its foes not JUST because of its military might. Love them or hate them, they are also savvy at negotiations and playing the meta-game.

Hell, half the reason Goonswarm came to power was by getting one of the leaders of their former nemesis (Band of Brothers) to disband the alliance and defect to their side (on the basis that sitting on a pile of cash and resources and doing nothing with it was boring)

Before that happened, Band of Brothers (BoB) was the greatest power in EVE. So much so in fact that the Goons primary military tactic was to swarm enemy fleets with greater numbers in cheaper equipment (see: Zergling tactics).

Once in a position of power... they made deals, backstabbed, bribed and spied on enemies, manipulated the market, used fear of what they MIGHT do to make people do what they wanted to do, etc, etc.
Their military power is only a part of what makes them powerful.
But I digress.


The point is... when faced with a powerful opponent, joining with a powerhouse or dying are not the only options. Take a page out of many insurgent groups in real life.
If your enemy is stronger than you, don't fight on their terms. In fact, don't confront them directly. Harass them. Find ways to undermine their power in places you know they can't exert their full power.
If your enemy has a greater economy... find ways to disrupt it.
If your enemy has more spies... decentralize, do things that don't make sense, and spread false information.
If your enemy is gunning for you... duck down, change tactics, and make their efforts cost way that yours.
If your enemy offers you a deal... make sure it is advantageous to you (by using the above tactics as leverage). As implied before... your enemy can't be everywhere at once. There is always a limit to how far they can (or are willing) to go.


Moreover;
- You don't really die. Ever.
- No one can forcibly remove stuff from your hanger (as long as you are in an NPC station).
- Some mechanics, rules, and tactics can be manipulated to grant you greater safety while making your enemies frustrated (hint: there is a reason a lot of people like staging operations out of low-sec).


And finally: Propaganda is cheap. There is only one reality; the one on the field. And you have to actually go to the field to see it.

Personal note: I live in low-sec and could care less what the null-sec power blocks do. If they come to my neighborhood, good. More targets.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#10 - 2015-11-24 10:52:04 UTC
No one, two or three entities in game, even working together, are in a position where they can inflict strategic defeats on the Imperium in their home territory at present.

That doesn't make them invincible or unbeatable. Someone has to be top dog and the Imperium are it right now.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2015-11-24 10:59:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
Yes, we are basically gods. Just roll over and die. Resistance is futile.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#12 - 2015-11-24 13:38:51 UTC
like all these "super powers" they are filled with alot of people who just know how to anchor up, hit f1 and do ratting, these are easy prey for alot of smaller groups who can do damage to them.

you dont need to beat them you just need to have fun and fun can be had with only a couple of people who know what they are doing. it amazes me what small organised, heavily outnumbered fleets can do against kitchen sink sov monkeys.

As said you aint going to really defeat them but you certainly do damage and provide yourself with fun.

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Trudeaux Margaret
University of Caille
#13 - 2015-11-24 13:43:04 UTC
OP, as someone who is in a corp/alliance that is part of the Goons wider coalition, I'll try to give a little guidance on your request.

There's a tool called Dotlan which is the best thing ever for watching who is fighting who in null and low:

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/

On the sidebar there is a category called "Most violent systems" which gives you a quick overview.

Anyway, Dotlan sorts each sov region by who holds the individual system. If you look at Deklein:
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Deklein
you'll note that it's the Goon's big base of power (although it's not the only region they hold, just where they live.)

If you look at Fountain:
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Fountain
you'll see it's held by a lot of much smaller alliances, and that some of the systems are being contested (the red around the systems means that the system's infrastructure has been attacked/challenged.)

you can go through each section of sov this way and see what's what. Protip: the entire "northeast" of the map is held by "the Imperium" (Goons and allies) and much of the east and some of the southeast is held by Russians although not all.

Then there's Provibloc in the south which I think someone explained, and NPC null (Curse, Syndicate, etc.) which entail a whole different playstyle.

Living in null can be difficult for a brand new player with few skillpoints, but there are corps that will take you and train you.

> anyone willing to give me like a 5 min politics crash course?

> grr goons, lowsec is full of elitist sh*s, all roads lead to the bittervet pl

Avvy
Doomheim
#14 - 2015-11-24 13:50:06 UTC
Reading through this thread I kind of feel sorry for the op.

No wonder a lot of players don't actually post in these forums.

Seems paranoia and suspicion runs deep in this game.
Trudeaux Margaret
University of Caille
#15 - 2015-11-24 13:55:53 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Reading through this thread I kind of feel sorry for the op.

No wonder a lot of players don't actually post in these forums.

Seems paranoia and suspicion runs deep in this game.



There are several ways to play this game. Sov is one of them and it is a game of war. War involves spying, manipulation and brutality -- hence the paranoia and and suspicion.

Me, I'm disabled and I have to rest some days so I cannot get involved in positions that allow me to get too jaded. I just like to shoot things. Although hopefully I'm better than Lan Wang's description:

Quote:
people who just know how to anchor up, hit f1



I mean I know how to tackle things on a drag bubble as well Lol

> anyone willing to give me like a 5 min politics crash course?

> grr goons, lowsec is full of elitist sh*s, all roads lead to the bittervet pl

Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2015-11-24 14:48:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Cara Forelli
If small gang stuff is your interest you might consider low-sec or even wormhole space as an alternative. Lowsec is very active and it's proximity to highsec means you end up fighting different groups pretty often as people roll through. Wormhole space is a whole different "wild west" type lifestyle, but it's also very fun.

One thing you should remember about large groups is they are harder to get mobilized. Just because goons are large doesn't mean you can't pick a fight with them. The vast majority of goons don't personally know or care about the small group you just attacked - whether or not they respond probably has more to do with whether they "feel like it" than any sort of loyalty to their alliance mates. This is one of the great things about small corps - there is a much better sense of community and loyalty that makes fights more meaningful than "everyone press F1, haha we're unstoppable goons".

Edit: And as far as being unstoppable, very few groups in EVE are actually beaten out of existence through combat. Most groups end up failscading due to morale or leadership issues instead. Goons have built a culture that lets them keep up morale by stoking the pride of being in the huge blob. Their leaders have proven quite good at this so far, but just like any organization it can crumble quite quickly if the people at the top stop maintaining it.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament

Avvy
Doomheim
#17 - 2015-11-24 15:01:47 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
If small gang stuff is your interest you might consider low-sec or even wormhole space as an alternative. Lowsec is very active and it's proximity to highsec means you end up fighting different groups pretty often as people roll through. Wormhole space is a whole different "wild west" type lifestyle, but it's also very fun.

One thing you should remember about large groups is they are harder to get mobilized. Just because goons are large doesn't mean you can't pick a fight with them. The vast majority of goons don't personally know or care about the small group you just attacked - whether or not they respond probably has more to do with whether they "feel like it" than any sort of loyalty to their alliance mates. This is one of the great things about small corps - there is a much better sense of community and loyalty that makes fights more meaningful than "everyone press F1, haha we're unstoppable goons".

Edit: And as far as being unstoppable, very few groups in EVE are actually beaten out of existence through combat. Most groups end up failscading due to morale or leadership issues instead. Goons have built a culture that lets them keep up morale by stoking the pride of being in the huge blob. Their leaders have proven quite good at this so far, but just like any organization it can crumble quite quickly if the people at the top stop maintaining it.


I doubt the Goons would need to mobilize the whole force. All they would need to do is hold the ground (space) until they can get more forces there.

What makes you think they have no loyalty? Because they are big so can't possibly know each other? But their loyalty would be to the corp. and to respect the chain of command.

I don't see how the Goons would have lasted so long if they weren't organised. So they must know what they're doing.

Syeed Ameer Ali
Dirtbag Space Warriors Coming for yor Loots
#18 - 2015-11-24 15:07:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Syeed Ameer Ali
Ok, I'm still brand new at the sov game, but I'll take a stab at this. "The Imperium", aka Goonswarm and friends, are the top dog in nullsec sort of. In the sense that they have the most pilots by a wide margin, the most capital and super capital ships. Nobody can face them in a head to head war - the only way they could be directly attacked and removed from their space at this particular moment in the narrative would require more effort and diplomacy than anyone can be arsed to do - getting together 100 alliances, massaging the egos of all their CEOs, getting them all trained for the same doctrines and coordinating operations.

However, the thing about the Imperium is that they are deeply settled in the northern half of the map, and their primary activity and purpose is PVE, not PvP. The do PvP but it isn't their focus. Their focus is mainly to kill NPC rats, mine, extract moon goo, and generally to extract wealth from the space that they hold. They are extremely immobile. If you live on their borders they will probably attack you at some point and may even decide to keep your space. You will not be able to hold space that they want to take, but you may be able to wait until they get bored and leave, and then move back in. If you live on the opposite end of the map from them, they will have absolutely no impact on your game - they are not an expansionist power at all in that sense. Sometimes they get all riled up and invade Providence or something, but after awhile they will go home.

Apart from the Imperium there are several other entities of significance in nullsec. The Pandemic family (PL/Horde/waffles) are a confederation of three autonomous alliances with a PvP focus who are extremely mobile and much more interested in taking space than in holding it. We may pop up anywhere on the map at any time. CVA and their Provi bloc friends are another "we live in this one region (Providence)" sorts of groups. They do Amarr RP and are famous for being the only nullsec entity which possibly won't shoot you in the face if you happen to be in their space. Northern Coalition. and Northern Army are another relatively mobile PvP centric group. The Russians in their various forms remain a power in their timezone, and there are numerous small alliances that hold a few systems here and there mainly by bluing their neighbors rather than carving out their space and defending it by force.

Also worth mentioning are numerous mostly PvP centric smaller groups that stage in lowsec or NPC nullsec and make it their business to attack sov holders for fights and occasionally take a system or two as a means of generating PvP content.
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2015-11-24 15:09:06 UTC
Avvy wrote:
I doubt ...

What makes you think...

I don't see how...

You don't play the game so of course you have no idea what you are talking about.

Avvy wrote:
I don't see how the Goons would have lasted so long if they weren't organised. So they must know what they're doing.

That is the complete opposite of what I said. Goons are very organized and it the cause of their success. That doesn't mean they will always be organized. I have seen many groups fold in hours or days after running for months or years without a hint of a problem. All it takes is a bit of burnout or small disagreement at the top, which snowballs into a full failscade.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament

Avvy
Doomheim
#20 - 2015-11-24 15:29:19 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
Avvy wrote:
I doubt ...

What makes you think...

I don't see how...

You don't play the game so of course you have no idea what you are talking about.



Ouch!

Don't know what you mean. I change the skill queue, I buy books, even travel to a station from time to time picking up such books. Although I have run out of books I presently need.
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