These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Why no big mining ships?

Author
Fat Buddah
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-11-23 07:30:09 UTC
For almost all in-space activities, you can always bring a bigger ship as you wish.
I'm not saying bigger ships are always better for any given situation, but one almost always has this option open.

Need more DPS bashing that POS? Well ditch the frig and bring a Captal. The same with logi and e-war...and even hauling stuff around the space.

However, when you look at the mining ships they are capped at the mid sized mining barges. Once you reach exhumers, the only way to scale up is to go horizontal, i.e.; bring more barges. So in that sense, miners have very limited options available to them compared to other DPS/Logi/Ewar people.
This makes my Killboard very boring to look at. Procurer, procurer, procurer, oh look a retriever, procurer, skiff, procurer, ooh a venture, procurer...meh

Now, the introduction of Venture and Prophecy addressed this issue but in the noob direction : small mining frigs. Why not go the other way, too? Let's have a BS sized mining ships. Give it an internal ore compression chamber or more tank or whatever..
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2015-11-23 07:56:43 UTC
If you introduce larger mining vessels, by necessity they'd have to mine more (as opposed to just holding more), as an increase of any other trait simply doesn't make sense*. More mining = tanking mineral prices. Minerals are already pretty cheap and pouring more onto an already saturated marked will make larger vessels a necessity rather than an option, because you'll have to mine more to make up for the deflated prices.

*More tank is insane, considering the tank you can already get on a skiff is larger than many comparable vessels (close to 100k properly fitted). More range isn't necessary nor all that helpful beyond current levels. More speed isn't needed (hence: barge!), nor would it make sense for a larger vessel to have more mobility. More capacity is sort of unnecessary as there's dozens and dozens of tools an options at a miner's disposal to hold or move more ore. Yield I already addressed. So what's left? Internal ore compression is similar to capacity - largely unnecessary since capacity isn't an issue.

I'm open to hearing ideas about this, but it would help you came forward with something else.
Aluanna
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2015-11-23 08:52:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Aluanna
How about a ship that can mine about the same as current barges, but can drag asteroids towards one point? or just has a longer base range?

I realize that more range isn't always needed, but assuming you don't have a full on mining fleet it could be useful.

It's not so much an upgrade as it is a niche sidestep..

but hey, I don't mine, so I wouldn't know
Anthar Thebess
#4 - 2015-11-23 09:18:46 UTC
Mount mining lasers on titan and mine!
People did this many times.
Put full rack of harvester mining drones on a carrier , and go to belt.

Iain Cariaba
#5 - 2015-11-23 10:01:17 UTC
Aluanna wrote:
I realize that more range isn't always needed, but assuming you don't have a full on mining fleet it could be useful.

You don't need range, you just need some planning. Slap a MWD on a cheap frig with nanos and overdives, make yourself a few bookmarks before undocking the barge. A handfull of bookmarks spread slightly under 2x mining beam range and one 150+km bounce point is all you need, and just takes a few minutes to setup. I've stripped belts entirely out of high grade ore without ever slow-boating the exhumer.
Amarisen Gream
Pleasant Peninsula Productions
Cauldron of Ecstasy
#6 - 2015-11-23 10:20:33 UTC
I love how the general response to a BS + sized mining ship is - if you have a bigger ship, it will have to have a higher yeild and that will tank mineral prices

Looking fast at the market - trit runs from 4-7 ISK with the average price for trade hubs at 6+ ISK.
Nearly 3 years ago trit ran 3-6 ISK.

A bigger ship - yes would have some effect in market prices, but these people saying it would tank the market need to stop riding in that one trick pony.
EVE is player controlled - a properly balance BS mining ship (even if it's base states where the three exhumers combined) would not effect the market that much. Specially if the price of the hull was 750-1000 million ISK.
Code and goons plus other hi-sec flower children would swarm and gang **** everyone of these they found in a belt. So the number of these ships would hopefully remain in check through one game function or another.

It isn't like every player, his granny and old dog will have 10 of these in space all day every day.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs

Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2015-11-23 12:55:52 UTC
The guy just worried about his KB and nothing to do with mining as a whole.

I would recommend hom to go and dunk some Freighters or Orcas. But it's still meh.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#8 - 2015-11-23 13:48:12 UTC
what mining needs in my opinion and i am not a miner but i think i can safely say this. is a reason to bring the rorqual in a belt, i don't say it has to be an active miner obviously it needs to be there for support and compressing and storing ore aswell as repair ships and help in combat situations (be it PVP or PVE) i dont mind if it also mines in the process.

but as it is now the rorqual would be nice bait and people will kill it, so the rorqual and in extend the orca needs an overhaul. If i am not mistaken that will happen at some point but how and when is still not sure.

just a bigger mining ship is not something i see would benefit EVE

also i think that miners should get a destroyer with bonus to mining links as there will be combat variants of the commandships in destroyer size, i think it is only honest to give miners something equally good

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#9 - 2015-11-23 15:55:34 UTC
Khan Wrenth wrote:
...Minerals are already pretty cheap....


Hu??

I am sorry but what? The baseprice of tritanium is 1 isk not 9348590758265 bajillion and don't tell me about a "player" driven market.
This "market" that you would refer to is more of a monkey-bot driven nut house. The greed of the Ferengi knows no end. No wonder that ships are 2-3 fold of their baseprices.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Feledain
Elmsfeuer
#10 - 2015-11-23 16:08:05 UTC
Sounds to me that we could make an "ORE Marauder".
"Weapon System" bonus would be for normal Mining lasers (because it looks cool), 6 of em and 2 utility highs. Yield about the same as the other barges.
Big Ore hold, reasonable tank. "Bastion" module for range.
Slots and PG/CPU for fun fits, like MJD/MWD, ECM or something. Rubbish base speed.

Modifications to this brainfart are welcome.
Avatar Moon
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2015-11-23 16:30:15 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:
what mining needs in my opinion and i am not a miner but i think i can safely say this. is a reason to bring the rorqual in a belt, i don't say it has to be an active miner obviously it needs to be there for support and compressing and storing ore aswell as repair ships and help in combat situations (be it PVP or PVE) i dont mind if it also mines in the process.


No.... the rorqual isn't really needed/wanted in a Belt. People say that is what is wanted, but you already brought it up:

Ellendras Silver wrote:
but as it is now the rorqual would be nice bait and people will kill it, so the rorqual and in extend the orca needs an overhaul. If i am not mistaken that will happen at some point but how and when is still not sure.


Yup. Back in what? 2014 they said they would look at changing the Rorqual. Today being just over 30 days before 2016 and, still waiting?

Miners don't need "just a bigger mining ship". In the end mining itself could use some kind of change in order to help bring things into a new reality. Obviously we have people who don't dedicate their lives to mining in highsec/null, and that's great. Others might be set in building their vast industry empires. Those are the people who see the same issues over, and over with the system in its current format.

Max Hulk + Max Rorq = Max profit for 1 hulk.
No more profit can be squeezed out of this 1 character, even if you mine 23 hours a day, 7 days a week. So how do you increase your ISK? You get more miners. You get a hauler, to move your ore to allow your miners to mine in belt(because a 2 mil Miasmos is far cheaper than a 2 bil Rorq in your belt).


(tinfoil hat math time folks)
You change from 1 character, to 10 toons, now instead of 20 mil/hour your pulling 200 mil an hour. So would it not be more fair to the "casual eve player", the want to be industry character, or the advanced indy toon, to have similar stages. So while I understand OP's topic, and intent, is bigger ships the way to change this precident? I'm not so sure.

PVP Players want those dank Rorqual killmails and soon kill marks on their ships as much as their want Hulkaggeddon. But what does moving the rorq to a belt change other than how miners mine.

Industry players strive to reach personal "training/skillplan goals" just like everyone else. But for the PVP pilot, there are so many options of "bigger, better ships" than my Rifter and Bantam to fly.

A miner's perspective of mining in new eden(please keep hats on for the ride)

The miner starts now, with his Civvy mining laser, than goes to a Venture, elevating to a Prospect, or soon the Ice Frig. Learning the ways of the Ore, possibly even following the CODE. Soon they get their first barge, and the adventure takes some more roids out of the way for the haulers and pvpers to fly through space, keeping it clean of the evil ROID trash that litters New Eden, seemingly ignored by those capsuleers who want to just wage war on eachother. Now in an exhumer, with specialized crystals tuned to the frequencies needed to remove that litter at best value, they find they have reached their peak. They turn to their capital ship line to realize, it does nothing more than provide a bonus to its fellow miners. So now they sit in their hulk/skiff/mackinaw helping do the work so many devalue, and removing the trash with no further progress. Wanting to make more money and feel a stronger connection to New Eden, they turn to their fellow capsuleers for some advice on changes. They say the same rhetoric: stop mining, rat or pvp; run incursions or missions.


CCPlz;
Stop speaking about "we will fix the rorq" and do something

Capsuleers PLZ:
Stop trying to speak about how "bigger mining ships isn't better" because I'd rather mine in 1 ship than 5. Just like you would rather rat in a carrier than an ishtar, or fly a t2 _____ / t3 ______ (insert ship type) than a t1.

When SOMEONE from either side comes up with a decent solution I'll be all for it, but while I have yet to find a ammecable solution that would benefit the playerbase as a whole and not hurt any one part of the community. I'll pray someone with more imagination than I, can suggest a decent proposal.


Until than.
Fly safe
o7


PS: Long live the battle Skiff!
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2015-11-23 16:58:15 UTC
Hmmmm.. This is a tough one. Why use 5 account to mine when you would have 1 toon in a ship with 5 x the yield?
Then why not have 5 toons getting 5x the yield each?

Put it this way. If I'm null bearing, I will max out the toons I have with the best ships I have. Let's say I have 5 toons. I can get 5 carriers going. But 1 should be more than enough for anyone right? Takes no time and little attention to deal with 5, so might as well rake in that isk.

N+1 easy lesson.

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.

Darth Squeemus
Doomheim
#13 - 2015-11-23 17:11:25 UTC
Fat Buddah wrote:
This makes my Killboard very boring to look at.


If you want something other than barges on your kb, go engage something that actually shoots back. Nobody here give a damn about you kb, dude.

-1
Avatar Moon
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2015-11-23 17:13:34 UTC
Zimmer Jones wrote:
Hmmmm.. This is a tough one. Why use 5 account to mine when you would have 1 toon in a ship with 5 x the yield?
Then why not have 5 toons getting 5x the yield each?

Put it this way. If I'm null bearing, I will max out the toons I have with the best ships I have. Let's say I have 5 toons. I can get 5 carriers going. But 1 should be more than enough for anyone right? Takes no time and little attention to deal with 5, so might as well rake in that isk.

N+1 easy lesson.



I'm not disagreeing... and this is again my other ulterior point:
Mining needs a once over


Just remember:
there is no spoon
Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
#15 - 2015-11-23 17:16:28 UTC
Because miners don't want a bigger ships. They want more yield and ore capacity. And CCP please (please, please,pretty please, with cherry on top) give them ability to reprocess and to sold ore in a belt.
And no matter what toy miners get they will always demand more.
Fat Buddah
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2015-11-23 17:18:17 UTC
BS sized mining ship was the first idea that came to mind but I am open to better ideas. The part about KB was for a joke so just ignore that.
However I stand with my opening post that the miners have very limited options in terms of their ships and modules directly related to their mining yields. As a pvp pilot I fly a vast range of ships with even wider choices of modules. It just seems unfair.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#17 - 2015-11-23 17:39:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
People are guessing it will yield more because there is no concrete proposal in this thread other than 'give me bigger ships just because'.

Come up with a concrete proposal. Tell us what it does, how it does it and why we'd benefit from its existence.

edit, when you say miners have limited options, no they dont. They have all the options they need. Not to mention your proposal says nothing about what this bigger ship will do...how is that an option?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#18 - 2015-11-23 17:46:16 UTC
Mining doesn't include enough variables to support a lot of unique roles, so it is somewhat difficult to make a bigger mining ship without obsoleting the existing mining ships.

And anyway, there's simply no need for them. The existing mining ships do an entirely adequate job for meeting mineral demand.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2015-11-23 17:48:50 UTC
Whoops, forgot I did support bigger mining ships, just not bigger yields

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5410827#post5410827

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.

Avatar Moon
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2015-11-23 17:52:45 UTC
Fat Buddah wrote:
BS sized mining ship was the first idea that came to mind but I am open to better ideas. The part about KB was for a joke so just ignore that.
However I stand with my opening post that the miners have very limited options in terms of their ships and modules directly related to their mining yields. As a pvp pilot I fly a vast range of ships with even wider choices of modules. It just seems unfair.




Why? Its perfectly fair... I mean just look at this data showing proof that less than 1% of people who log in mine:
Eve Market Data(2015)


Roll



2 Capital strip miners on the Rorqual, 1 on Orca , 5k m3 without crystals, add an appropriate bonus with. Not impacted by boosts.

Won't pull in mass ore people want... but hey 6km3 off a ship that was previously getting 0m3 per minute is better than nothing....

Just another idea....not a very good one.. but an idea..
12Next page