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Investigation on D-ston, Report
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Diana Kim
Kenshin Katana.
United Caldari Space Command.
#21 - 2012-01-06 11:37:36 UTC
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:
However I can't help but notice that the recommended course of action is, by another name, called piracy.

Well, generally, it is not right.
If we take a case of one party attacks another party and confiscates its property during attack, you will name it piracy, if parties aren't hostile to each other and the attack is stimulated by desire of first party to acquire wealth of second party.

But, if a party attacks only those, who are proven enemies of a certain government, you should call them privateers for this government.

And at last, if this party doesn't seek wealth of second party and represents interests of the government, you should call this attack a military operation.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#22 - 2012-01-06 11:42:53 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
who are proven enemies of a certain government


Nothing has actually been proven though, this entire report is based on a hunch.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Kalaratiri
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#23 - 2012-01-06 12:18:24 UTC
I'm a little confused. As far as I was aware, the Disciples of Ston already agreed to letting Ms. Goldcore visit for investigative purposes, and yet here she says they refused her?

Is having some impartial observers along that much of an issue?

She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.

This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums.  - CCP Falcon

I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#24 - 2012-01-06 13:21:00 UTC
Kalaratiri wrote:
I'm a little confused. As far as I was aware, the Disciples of Ston already agreed to letting Ms. Goldcore visit for investigative purposes, and yet here she says they refused her?

Is having some impartial observers along that much of an issue?



There would have been no issue with impartial observers, but pilots who are current war targets or considered KOS can hardly be described as that.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Kalaratiri
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#25 - 2012-01-06 14:48:33 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Kalaratiri wrote:
I'm a little confused. As far as I was aware, the Disciples of Ston already agreed to letting Ms. Goldcore visit for investigative purposes, and yet here she says they refused her?

Is having some impartial observers along that much of an issue?



There would have been no issue with impartial observers, but pilots who are current war targets or considered KOS can hardly be described as that.


So find some who aren't? There must be someone, somewhere who neither hates, nor supports either the Amarr or the Minmatar? I mean, hell, use the Sisters if you need too.

She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.

This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums.  - CCP Falcon

I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#26 - 2012-01-06 16:31:13 UTC
I've never got on with the Praetorians. The feeling's fairly mutual - my past is, after all, pretty chequered. But I could at least respect them. Sure I've had more than a few catfights with Fierach, and God knows there's plenty to cast doubt on my status as a good citizen - though I would hope that the last year of loyal service to Kingdom and Empire have done something about that.

But I'm saddened by this. Not just because it feels like a profound waste of Imperial resources, a massive failure on the part of PIE to prioritise and display the good side of the Empire, not just because it displays to the cluster the face that the Matari would paint of us... but because I'm not surprised.

Go ahead. Have your little debacle. Just... next time, try using the common sense God gave you, hmm? Don't you have a war to fight already without worrying about a few potential new recruits? What the hell, in the worst case scenario, could this little group to genuinely effect the Empire in the grand scheme of things?

Prioritise and grow up.
Jev North
Doomheim
#27 - 2012-01-06 16:32:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jev North
Kalaratiri wrote:
So find some who aren't? There must be someone, somewhere who neither hates, nor supports either the Amarr or the Minmatar? I mean, hell, use the Sisters if you need too.

The Sisters are a decent bet, but tend to deal mostly with their own affairs. I can think of a few other parties that have a neutral stance to the issue.. but unfortunately the other parties involved likely won't be neutral towards them. It might actually be easier to try and arrange a situation where everyone has equally sized axes to grind.

Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:
..it feels like a profound waste of Imperial resources..

I care little for this entire issue, but.. yes, that. If I had this much energy and sheer bloody-mindedness, I'd want to aim it at the large, obvious, proven enemies. You know, do some damage, instead of shadow-boxing with a few pacifist monks.

Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#28 - 2012-01-06 16:47:37 UTC
Kalaratiri wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
Kalaratiri wrote:
I'm a little confused. As far as I was aware, the Disciples of Ston already agreed to letting Ms. Goldcore visit for investigative purposes, and yet here she says they refused her?

Is having some impartial observers along that much of an issue?



There would have been no issue with impartial observers, but pilots who are current war targets or considered KOS can hardly be described as that.


So find some who aren't? There must be someone, somewhere who neither hates, nor supports either the Amarr or the Minmatar? I mean, hell, use the Sisters if you need too.


My concern is any neutral candidate who put their name forward would be dismissed by either side for petty or illogical reasons.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Myxx
The Scope
#29 - 2012-01-06 19:08:02 UTC
I could step forward as a neutral party, though I blatantly don't give enough of a damn anyway - par for the course, perhaps - to ensure I'm truly neutral. Take it for what you will, that could be a good thing or a bad thing.
Karmilla Strife
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#30 - 2012-01-06 20:29:48 UTC
Thgil, might I suggest proofreading your reports before presenting them to your superiors, or publishing said reports in a public venue where millions will read them. A little professionalism would go a long way.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#31 - 2012-01-07 13:54:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Rodj Blake
From: TES Temal Kador, Apocalypse Class (Navy Issue)
Location: Amarr

***BEGIN TRANSMISSION***

After due consideration the PIE leadership is concerned by the lack of co-operation from the Disciples of Ston and concurs with Lt Goldcore that they are almost certainly hiding something.

However, what is unclear from the results of the investigation is whether or not they have directly supported Republic military operations (the subject of the investigation).

Therefore we will not be implementing the full recommendations of the report at this time. Instead, we will be setting the Disciples of Ston to orange standings. As such, we will be closely monitoring their activities. Should any new evidence emerge that proves direct support of Republican activities their standings will be altered accordingly.

The question remains of what exactly the Disciples have to hide. During the course of the investigation Manwe Todako claimed that "among our over 13,000 residents are a good number of former slaves who slaved aboard the war vessels of PIE and the 24th Imperial Crusade." His response to a request for further information on this specific point was a generic statement regarding slaves found in cans. This was not a satisfactory answer.

It would appear that the Disciples are not simply rescuing slaves discarded or otherwise released by their owners, but that they are also obtaining slaves from battlefields. Whilst we appreciate the efforts of the Disciples to rescue them, these slaves remain the property of their owners, and they should not have been transferred out of the Empire. Indeed, ideally efforts should have been made to return them to their owners. Should any such slaves have left the Empire, it would indicate that the Disciples have in fact been running what I believe some people might call an "underground monorail" carrying slaves away from their rightful owners.

As such, we request a full manifest of all slaves acquired by the Disciples since their formation to be made available to the public. This manifest must include the details of where and how each slave was acquired and their current location. This manifest should be published within seven days.

Furthermore, we expect the Disciples to arrange for the return to PIE of all slaves recovered from PIE vessels within fourteen days.

Failure to comply with these requests may result in further action from PIE.

***TRANSMISSION ENDS***

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Exocet Lemming
Your Permanent Lover
#32 - 2012-01-07 14:18:47 UTC
Karmilla Strife wrote:
Thgil, might I suggest proofreading your reports before presenting them to your superiors, or publishing said reports in a public venue where millions will read them. A little professionalism would go a long way.


Are you curtain that would be a good idea?
Manwe Todako
Disciples of Ston
#33 - 2012-01-07 14:48:37 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:

It would appear that the Disciples are not simply rescuing slaves discarded or otherwise released by their owners, but that they are also obtaining slaves from battlefields. Whilst we appreciate the efforts of the Disciples to rescue them, these slaves remain the property of their owners, and they should not have been transferred out of the Empire. Indeed, ideally efforts should have been made to return them to their owners. Should any such slaves have left the Empire, it would indicate that the Disciples have in fact been running what I believe some people might call an "underground monorail" carrying slaves away from their rightful owners.

As such, we request a full manifest of all slaves acquired by the Disciples since their formation to be made available to the public. This manifest must include the details of where and how each slave was acquired and their current location. This manifest should be published within seven days.

Furthermore, we expect the Disciples to arrange for the return to PIE of all slaves recovered from PIE vessels within fourteen days.

Failure to comply with these requests may result in further action from PIE.

***TRANSMISSION ENDS***


Perhaps we have been unclear about our Matriculation program. When we say "Matriculation Program" that is short for "Emancipation and Matriculation Program." You will see this if you research the beginning announcement of the opening of our first Center. We rescue "former slaves" wherever they may be found and from whomever.

The Disciples of Ston unequivocally state that NO ONE IS THE RIGHTFUL OWNER OF ANOTHER HUMAN BEING period! When we rescue and emancipate these individuals we ARE returning them to their rightful owners, THEMSELVES!

Now, as of yet, we have not directly rescued any former slaves from battlefields, but we hope to do so in the future. We have received rescued slaves from other pilots who have done so, and we have receive testimony from rescued slaves of their work on board battle vessels.

In answer to your demands to provide detailed information on the former slaves we have rescued, the answer is NO. We will die and our spirits will return to the Maker before we ever allow those we rescue to return to slavery.

SANKOFA
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#34 - 2012-01-07 15:09:09 UTC
Surely Captain Todako, complying with the Admiral's previous request as to details of which members of PIE you have found to abandon civilians in cans is at least acceptable. Without going into specific details, I'm sure the Admiral will be greatful for the information to conduct his own in house investigations.

Remember what I was telling Captain Goldcore about negotiation? You could give a little there at no personal risk to yourself, your corporation or the people in your care.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#35 - 2012-01-07 15:28:45 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Surely Captain Todako, complying with the Admiral's previous request as to details of which members of PIE you have found to abandon civilians in cans is at least acceptable. Without going into specific details, I'm sure the Admiral will be greatful for the information to conduct his own in house investigations.


For the record, we will investigate any allegations of abandonment levelled at PIE officers and that is one reason why the manifest was requested.


Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Manwe Todako
Disciples of Ston
#36 - 2012-01-07 15:48:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Manwe Todako
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Surely Captain Todako, complying with the Admiral's previous request as to details of which members of PIE you have found to abandon civilians in cans is at least acceptable. Without going into specific details, I'm sure the Admiral will be greatful for the information to conduct his own in house investigations.

Remember what I was telling Captain Goldcore about negotiation? You could give a little there at no personal risk to yourself, your corporation or the people in your care.


Pay close attention to what Captain Blake is demanding and suggesting; that these rescue people should be returned to their "rightful owners." He is demanding their "present locations." This isn't about investigating abandonment on the part of PIE members. This is about what PIE member perceive as their "property rights." This is not a matter of negotiation and diplomacy. This is a matter of not violating our core values. Captain Blake says, "efforts should have been made to return them to their owners." This is anathema to who we are and we will do nothing that would assist anyone in doing the same. That is why this is not a matter of negotiation.

As to a manifest: Are you aware that the only record we have when we rescue former slaves is the name and information of the pilot transporting those individuals? The names of the original holders are unknown to us unless the rescued people choose to reveal it. We publicly publish those on our Wall of Shame. PIE may wish to contact those myriads of pilots if they wish to find the names of the original holders.

SANKOFA
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#37 - 2012-01-07 16:10:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Manwe Todako wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Surely Captain Todako, complying with the Admiral's previous request as to details of which members of PIE you have found to abandon civilians in cans is at least acceptable. Without going into specific details, I'm sure the Admiral will be greatful for the information to conduct his own in house investigations.

Remember what I was telling Captain Goldcore about negotiation? You could give a little there at no personal risk to yourself, your corporation or the people in your care.


Pay close attention to what Captain Blake is demanding and suggesting; that these rescue people should be returned to their "rightful owners." He is demanding their "present locations." This isn't about investigating abandonment on the part of PIE members. This is about what PIE member perceive as their "property rights." This is not a matter of negotiation and diplomacy. This is a matter of not violating our core values. Captain Blake says, "efforts should have been made to return them to their owners." This is anathema to who we are and we will do nothing that would assist anyone in doing the same. That is why this is not a matter of negotiation.

As to a manifest: Are you aware that the only record we have when we rescue former slaves is the name and information of the pilot transporting those individuals? The names of the original holders are unknown to us unless the rescued people choose to reveal it. We publicly publish those on our Wall of Shame. PIE may wish to contact those myriads of pilots if they wish to find the names of the original holders.


So, just so I'm clear on this myself, you stated how some of these abandoned civilians were rescued from being left by pilots of PIE Inc. earlier. Did you get this information from your wall of shame? If so then I suppose it makes the Admiral's job significantly easier.

I'm well aware of what the Admiral is demanding, I suggested you merely give him the names of the pilots in PIE that were found to have abandoned innocent lives. That's giving him a small amount of information at no risk, without going the whole hog. It's all about negotiation and each side appeasing the other.


Edit: Without even giving their current locations, you could list simply what was recovered and from where and when. Current detail as to their location should be irrelevant.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Manwe Todako
Disciples of Ston
#38 - 2012-01-07 16:22:53 UTC
OK, I'll try to be as clear as I can. The information about where former slaves came from comes from the following sources.

1. Former slave testimonies
2. Other pilots who have transported rescued former slaves to us

We only have the word of others to go by. I am sorry if I was unclear about that. Anyone can check the names of the pilots we list on the Wall of Shame. I do not know if any of them are members of PIE. Below is also a list of pilot name given to us by another Capsuleer who has been active in rescuing former slaves. Feel free to look them up. Again, look at Captain Blake's orignal post and note that his concern is not in investigating his own people but trying to return their slaves to them.
AaronDace
acid5
Albert Threestone
Antanaro
Agathon Tye
Atec Soter
Avenger18
Bethann Greenblade
Bur Idan
chichidedeng
CMEPTb X
Constantine Rivera
Croax Kra
DC''Gilard
deadcat ru
DEC LEMBACK
Der Chad
Elix Starwolf
Emperor DragonKing
exex
Fourjane
Gizaman1
gostlik
guneyy
Haatom
Hauler McTransporty
Heptane Pyroman
Hermedeth
Hlora
hooky's swards
jangoha
johneend
Kabansky
Karonys
Khe0ps
Koenigtulkaz
Lijara
Link Static
Mal Kicx
Miran Sky
MyStIc4120
NeuroNode
Nomad79
nuvolablu
omegabytes
Perris
pneub
Presley O'Bannon
Ramses Smuckles
Ruby Munro
sergl
shortya213
Soleman Mohammed
Sonita
T1g3rsh4rk
Tranka Verrane
Tropica
Tyara Lyn
Warhawk22
XxJaNxX
Zalthais
zapercon
ZIBERG

AFK47
CartmansRocket
DRAGON VIII
Evo xii
Hermann Gullwing
Iburim
Jake Abaddon
Mooncat Slayer
Mysticus Crispious
Nagosaka
primal gore
Quakefire
Sean Avery
Space Runner2000
Starkadh
TheKuningas
thestar gate
Valen Mir
VanuLancer
Vicatory
wormy1

Ace Dave
Albert Threestone
alexandra1985
arandazar
Atiro Durga
Azrarn
Bilboz
BlackOps ace
Charbydis
CoIk
Crazy Hippo
Dionysus Anton
Dracunculus
Elenor Kharne
EliteDesant
EnternalRain
GermanTrjan
Ikara
kenshynl2
kinbath
kyle wolf
Narkomanik
OlegARH81
Pechora
popudopulas
Quincy Quiet
Rufus Konstantin
RusKick
Scalira
Setur
sorby
Shakespeade
Sputnik D
Turja
Tzeentch's Champion
Urano
Vaca Hradecak
Vagronbrei
Vegas007
viper 481
xMakikox
xXxNiteShaidxXx

Alex Showers
Archmage Coldbane
Artemis Khaniij
Balays
BearUkraine
Blood'n Guts
chae songhwa
Char Bajeena
CINK KIDD
Couls
Cpt Pepper
Dangerous Daswe
Das Commander
Drechana Endisil
dscho
Epsilon Hominastra
Frakk Lee
gazthenailer
Kandice Stone
Kernal Debugger
Kerzack
Lebaneur
Ma Til'da
Mammoth 1
Mirkha
Mortach
Olav Leli
Orronin
Ovide
PALADDINELITY
Pelinn
pozdeykv
Primum Vivere
RavenThunder
reaperu812
Reetorr
Rooiboos
shhmee eeeeee
SKATER91
Slimandproud
Stonka237
TAHAKO
Tarzil
Thjodmar
Vandon Claw

SANKOFA
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#39 - 2012-01-07 16:27:49 UTC
Manwe Todako wrote:
I do not know if any of them are members of PIE.


Your earlier post suggested otherwise, I advise being certain of such facts before using them here. PIE take allegations such as this very seriously.

Quote:
Again, look at Captain Blake's orignal post and note that his concern is not in investigating his own people but trying to return their slaves to them.


I'm aware. You can still deny him that while at least assisting his internal investigation into the actions of PIE Pilots as an appeasement.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Manwe Todako
Disciples of Ston
#40 - 2012-01-07 16:42:21 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Manwe Todako wrote:
I do not know if any of them are members of PIE.


Your earlier post suggested otherwise, I advise being certain of such facts before using them here. PIE take allegations such as this very seriously.

Quote:
Again, look at Captain Blake's orignal post and note that his concern is not in investigating his own people but trying to return their slaves to them.


I'm aware. You can still deny him that while at least assisting his internal investigation into the actions of PIE Pilots as an appeasement.


Agreed, Mr. Marellus. I should have said, "We believe it is likely from testimonies that PIE blah, blah" My apologies for making my implications too strong. I will be more careful in the future.

SANKOFA