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How Do I Deal With Ninja Salvagers?

Author
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#81 - 2012-01-06 21:35:51 UTC
SnowxCrash wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
Yes, that's how I've be defining a solution in large part bc my proposed solution is an end-all counter. You're right that's not how it is, that's how I'd like it to be and so I hear many thousands of others over the years would no doubt agree with me.


Bingo. You don't want to have to think or put effort in. CCP apparently disagrees.


Not want to put in effort? How on earth did you come to that conclusion? Really. If what I'm saying goes into effect Ninja salvagers would take risk, and if I attack them I take risk, and the effort required to deal with future conflicts, with retribution from their corpmates or if they come back in a PvP ship is by far more effort than just jumping to another system with less activity, as I have already done much before even considering posting a thread about this topic.

What you're describing already exists in the form of looting. If you think the game needs more risk then I'd ask why you aren't in nullsec.
SnowxCrash
Perkone
Caldari State
#82 - 2012-01-06 21:43:31 UTC  |  Edited by: SnowxCrash
Kahega Amielden wrote:

What you're describing already exists in the form of looting. If you think the game needs more risk then I'd ask why you aren't in nullsec.


Mostly bc I've come to enjoy the company of the players in the corp I'm in and I do feel ingratiated towards them for helping me learn the game. Yet that's all besides the point. I do think more risk would be beneficial, and no doubt I will eventually go into Null, but none of what you've said disputes what I've said and even, to a certain degree, supports the idea of expanding risk and conflict within Eve. You shouldn't have to go to null to find player conflict, which is one of the arguments that have been given for ninja salvaging, which is ironic seeing as they claim I'm basically a carebear who's whining. That I can't handle the negative confrontation when I'm proposing that it be expanded to create more meaningful conflicts which can go beyond just one ninja salvager and a mission runner. So first I'm not capable or handling the simple conflict offered by griefing, then I'm seen as wanting too much conflict for the situation and expected to go to Null. Do you begin to see why I have such a low opinion of the solutions, the arguments offered so far? People tell me I'm wrong, and yet people can't even be consistent in trying to show how, let alone show that I am and in the end tend to just tell me to accept things as they are bc that's how they are and don't expect it to ever change. It never will, unless people first accept that it can.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#83 - 2012-01-06 22:03:54 UTC
Quote:
You shouldn't have to go to null to find player conflict,


You don't. Conflict doesn't always take the form of pewpew. Trying to compete for salvage is most certainly player conflict. It's just a form of conflict that doesn't immediately exclude new players, as your solution would. And after all, the only tangible gameplay change to your suggestion would be the exclusion of new players from a fun and profitable profession, as you'd have to be a complete idiot to actually shoot someone old enough to fly a battlecruiser or bigger competently.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#84 - 2012-01-06 22:13:59 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
You shouldn't have to go to null to find player conflict,


You don't. Conflict doesn't always take the form of pewpew. Trying to compete for salvage is most certainly player conflict. It's just a form of conflict that doesn't immediately exclude new players, as your solution would. And after all, the only tangible gameplay change to your suggestion would be the exclusion of new players from a fun and profitable profession, as you'd have to be a complete idiot to actually shoot someone old enough to fly a battlecruiser or bigger competently.


Kah, I think you might be making some jumps of logic that Snow is not following.

Kahega is going on the (correct) assumption that salvage pays out so poorly that nobody with decent combat skills would go around just salvaging instead of running their own missions. Therefore the people who come in and salvage, while not looting, legitimately can't earn more than that amount of ISK any other way, so they are probably newbies. If these newbies got aggressed every time they salvaged, it would effectively kill salvaging as a newbie profession.

"Real" ninja salvagers who look for trouble do loot your wrecks, and become shootable. You can and should shoot those guys.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

SnowxCrash
Perkone
Caldari State
#85 - 2012-01-06 23:31:35 UTC  |  Edited by: SnowxCrash
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
You shouldn't have to go to null to find player conflict,


You don't. Conflict doesn't always take the form of pewpew. Trying to compete for salvage is most certainly player conflict. It's just a form of conflict that doesn't immediately exclude new players, as your solution would. And after all, the only tangible gameplay change to your suggestion would be the exclusion of new players from a fun and profitable profession, as you'd have to be a complete idiot to actually shoot someone old enough to fly a battlecruiser or bigger competently.


Did I say it did? I've been saying, for some time, that this suggestion would bring about meaningful conflict. It get's kind of tired saying it like that over and over, so I abridge it sometimes. Also, my suggestion doesn't exclude them from continuing, merely places risk in doing so and doesn't require them to attack the mission runner. If anything I'd think that level of increased risk would increase how engaging that activity is and by result the fun in it. I've been accused of being a carebear, not being able to deal with this simple form of griefing, and then here's one of the most carebear statements in the entire thread which ironically has made the most compelling argument for ninja salvaging. I applaud you, while at the same time disputing what you've said.
Corny Flakes
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2012-01-07 00:09:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Corny Flakes
Since you only talk about how your idea is better than the current system and you ignore all solutions and explanations here's what you forgot in your idea:

1)Ninjasalvagers are as stated mostly newbies who fly frigates and destroyers, there is no way they can take on a L4 missionrunner. This is the part you don't get as far as i can tell.

2)As I already tried to explain this is one of the interaction parts of the 'sandbox', your idea takes this out completely. You say it gets replaced with your new one(which you claim is even better), thats dead wrong. No one would salvage for profit anymore only those who steal loot anyways like me. The only reason to still warp in is to pop the missionrunner which is already possible by stealing loot, so your idea adds nothing new to the game, it just takes from it and hurts the newbie playerbase and most likely means this miniprofession disapears.

3)Scanning takes time especially if you are a newbie, according to your own logic they invested time so they deserve reward. You dismiss all possible ways to make their life harder which could lead to 0 profit for them and even make them lose the ship. Means there are a lot countermeasures, you just choose not to use them. That is your problem. You want to remove all countermeasures with pewpew again taking something from the game.

4)The salvage is not worth it once you can blitz the mission.

5)Gates and hub stations would be full of wrecks no one cares or dares to salvage.

While morally you have a good point, this game is known for its harsh direct and indirect pvp in all areas which is very often morally questionable.

tl;dr Overall you want to remove a indirect counterable pvp part from the game, replacing it with nothing at all. All that because you refuse to accept that you have to fight for your salvage without shooting ppl who can't scratch you.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#87 - 2012-01-07 00:14:57 UTC
SnowxCrash wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
You shouldn't have to go to null to find player conflict,


You don't. Conflict doesn't always take the form of pewpew. Trying to compete for salvage is most certainly player conflict. It's just a form of conflict that doesn't immediately exclude new players, as your solution would. And after all, the only tangible gameplay change to your suggestion would be the exclusion of new players from a fun and profitable profession, as you'd have to be a complete idiot to actually shoot someone old enough to fly a battlecruiser or bigger competently.


Did I say it did? I've been saying, for some time, that this suggestion would bring about meaningful conflict. It get's kind of tired saying it like that over and over, so I abridge it sometimes. Also, my suggestion doesn't exclude them from continuing, merely places risk in doing so and doesn't require them to attack the mission runner. If anything I'd think that level of increased risk would increase how engaging that activity is and by result the fun in it. I've been accused of being a carebear, not being able to deal with this simple form of griefing, and then here's one of the most carebear statements in the entire thread which ironically has made the most compelling argument for ninja salvaging. I applaud you, while at the same time disputing what you've said.



You can't put too high a value on what you call "meaningful conflict" (which apparently only constitutes pewpew) if you're hiding in hisec.

I'd like to ask you why you think ninjasalvagers should put themselves at risk just by engaging in it when you yourself do not.
SnowxCrash
Perkone
Caldari State
#88 - 2012-01-07 00:54:49 UTC  |  Edited by: SnowxCrash
Corny Flakes wrote:
Since you only talk about how your idea is better than the current system and you ignore all solutions and explanations here's what you forgot in your idea:

1)Ninjasalvagers are as stated mostly newbies who fly frigates and destroyers, there is no way they can take on a L4 missionrunner. This is the part you don't get as far as i can tell.

2)As I already tried to explain this is one of the interaction parts of the 'sandbox', your idea takes this out completely. You say it gets replaced with your new one(which you claim is even better), thats dead wrong. No one would salvage for profit anymore only those who steal loot anyways like me. The only reason to still warp in is to pop the missionrunner which is already possible by stealing loot, so your idea adds nothing new to the game, it just takes from it and hurts the newbie playerbase and most likely means this miniprofession disapears.

3)Scanning takes time especially if you are a newbie according to your own logic they invested time so they deserve reward. You dismiss all possible ways to make their life harder which could lead to 0 profit for them and even make them lose the ship. Means there are a lot countermeasures, you just choose not to use them. That is your problem.

4)The salvage is not worth it once you can blitz the mission.

5)Gates and hub stations would be full of wrecks no one cares or dares to salvage.

While morally you have a good point, this game is known for its harsh direct and indirect pvp in all areas which are very often morally questionable.

tl;dr Overall you want to remove a indirect counterable pvp part from the game, replacing it with nothing at all. All that because you refuse to accept that you have to fight for your salvage without shooting ppl who can't scratch you.


I don't understand why you keep thinking I expect them to take me on. What I expect is that when they'd make a mistake, when they weren't stealthy enough to be a ninja, they'd get popped. After getting popped, maybe they'd get some friends, some members in their corp with my level of expertise or higher to get some retribution, and maybe I'd get popped.

Please specify what part of this particular interaction is so important? What part of it would be missed by increasing the interaction between players in this situation? So far the extent of the interaction has been having two missions with multi pockets ninja'd, then popping the rest of the existing ships so they couldn't get them, and then moving shop and no longer having to deal with it. I fail to see the importance of this interaction. Some noob got a little bit of isk? I had to move to a different system? I can see how many of you blitzers have little to no concern over them bc you have the ships, the training, and the dps to just blitz and get more profit than I and players like me can. I can see how you see this mini-profession as filling a role which would otherwise be empty. For you this suggestion would add nothing, for me and others like me, newer players, it'd add more options, options which would be interesting to explore and add further interaction. Salvaging would change, it'd become riskier, require smarter players, more skills to be effective and they'd also have to be discerning in who they followed. It doesn't make the profession disappear, it simply makes it more challenging. You seem to ignore this, something I've been reiterating and explaining thoroughly, a thoroughness I don't seem to be given in being told I don't understand certain aspects.

They scanned, the reward is finding something. That's what scanning is for, to find things, and the reward for scanning is finding. The reward for going there and taking action is completely different, which should be the chance to take what you found and the nature of the taking is what's disputed, of which your exercise in logic does not address. If you truly followed my logic then you'd leap to this next thought that if simply finding something was reason enough to have rights to it then the dispute is already moot as I not only 'found' the wrecks first, but I am the reason there was anything to even find.

As to is not being worth it, ya sure no doubt you're right. Unfortunately I am not like you, I lack training, I do not possess the training to have the dps to blitz missions and by result salvaging is more than equal to what I gain from blitzing. So, like I've said before, or which you like to simply ignore, something I've elaborated upon many times, your solution is impractical. It's not a real solution. It does not apply to my situation, to others in my situation and my solution is for our situation as players in your situation couldn't give a rats ass about someone salvaging their mission let alone take the time to lose a slot of dd to fit probes or salvagers let alone warp out and back in to confront the ninjas.
SnowxCrash
Perkone
Caldari State
#89 - 2012-01-07 01:10:18 UTC  |  Edited by: SnowxCrash
Kahega Amielden wrote:


You can't put too high a value on what you call "meaningful conflict" (which apparently only constitutes pewpew) if you're hiding in hisec.

I'd like to ask you why you think ninjasalvagers should put themselves at risk just by engaging in it when you yourself do not.


Hiding in highsec? Okay, so, I reactivated my acc on..the 12th of Dec. I had +1 imps, a kestrel, and 12m isk, and 6.5m sp bc I spent more time training afk than IG due to the lame learning skillset. For all intensives purposes I was a noob with some basic familiarity with a game which has changed quite a bit in 3yrs. In my first week I was in a cruiser doing l2s. Second week in a Drake doing l3s. Now I can tank l4s but still need to train dps to do many l4s. I've been back less than a month, had remote memories of flying a frig, and you're saying I'm hiding in highsec after only playing for under 3wks? I'm learning the game, I'm learning how to be part of a corp. I suppose to an extend I am hiding in highsec as ensuring I have imps to make training faster seems to be a logical step for a long-term plan to enter PvP and Null well-trained, funded, and familiar with the game. In three wks I've gone from trying to passive tank a Caracal to creating a fit for my Drake that outtanks a Nightmare with faction mods while still lacking significant training.

Perhaps this all bias's me towards other noobs. I came to Eve aware of how things would work out due to convos with established players in other games. I admit perhaps I just can't appreciate the salvaging miniprof. However, what I've seen so far in this thread is very few convincing arguments for this profession and an almost complete disregard or misunderstanding of my explanations of whyl my suggestion is better suited to this situation and how it should play out. Something even you don't seem to understand. Maybe I should elaborate, give you more information so you can. The players in question, that were ninja salvaging, were part of a 100 member corp, a corp that had established players flying Tengus and Navy Issue Ravens. If I popped that players ship the risk I take would be as real as his and could have just as much financial impact, perhaps even more if events escalated and with these possibilities the sandbox nature of the encounters which could happen from ninja salvaging would expand to encompass key aspects of Eve.
Corny Flakes
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2012-01-07 02:49:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Corny Flakes
So this is where our opinion differs, you think newbies would still waste a few minutes up to 1h scanning and salvaging despite the chance of 0 profit and getting popped? And no1 but newbies does pure ninja salvaging for profit (unless ofc a broke vet who needs to get a little money to do l4's or whatnot). Our opinion clearly differs here, theres not much any one of us can do to convince eachother. But allow me to clear a few questions you had and answer to opinions.

Quote:
I don't understand why you keep thinking I expect them to take me on. What I expect is that when they'd make a mistake, when they weren't stealthy enough to be a ninja, they'd get popped. After getting popped, maybe they'd get some friends, some members in their corp with my level of expertise or higher to get some retribution, and maybe I'd get popped.

I don't expect them to fight you, but your solution leads to this(Note: 1&2 are pure salvagers as it is right now, no intention to fight):
1) A ninja ends up having no profit if there is only 1 room as you would pop him before he would even finish salvaging the 1 ship unless you chose not to because you think he will pop you later(or you let him salvage and pop him later to save yourself time).
2) There are more rooms, depending in which one you are, it is still very unlikely that he will get all wrecks. Aditionally there's the risk of loosing everything using the next gate unless you choose not to shoot him.
3) Don't forget I talk about newbies, most of them won't have friends to pop you in return and ofc they don't have the firepower. Which leads to the ones remaining: vets or alts who planned popping you all along, they can already do this if they steal your loot and you shoot em. (Basically what you want already exists with all possible measures and countermeasures)

You think cutting the profit to possibly 0 or everything-1 room, but risk of loosing the ship won't destroy this profession? Well I think it would. See you already often get 0 profit if mission runners have a mate, salvage themselfes, pop wrecks... reducing profit additionally would kill this profession in my opinion(keep in mind mostly newbies do this for profit).

Quote:
Please specify what part of this particular interaction is so important? What part of it would be missed by increasing the interaction between players in this situation?... ...I fail to see the importance of this interaction. Some noob got a little bit of isk? I had to move to a different system?... ...For you this suggestion would add nothing, for me and others like me, newer players, it'd add more options, options which would be interesting to explore and add further interaction. Salvaging would change, it'd become riskier, require smarter players, more skills to be effective and they'd also have to be discerning in who they followed. It doesn't make the profession disappear, it simply makes it more challenging

1)Your situation already exists when stealing loot, thats what I do (likely results in active pewpew sooner or later).
2)We would be missing this miniprofession for newbiescanners and all coutermeasures and interactions you refuse to make and you want that to be replaced with point 1).

This probably has no value to you, but other players like interactions that require a different aproach of pvp(See hauling/market/production...ninjasalvaging is just one of them, it is a part of this game)
Salvaging would imo become part 1), that is replacing indirect pvp with active pvp(removing the carebear part of scanning down mr's)

Quote:
They scanned, the reward is finding something. ...

I was refering at the time invested resulting in profit which is why alot of ppl do this. I doubt a lot of ppl scan to find things that are nice to look at. Just as you run your mission to get LP's, bounty, mission reward and if lucky wrecks ppl scan to make profit.

Quote:
The reward for going there and taking action is completely different, which should be the chance to take what you found and the nature of the taking is what's disputed, of which your exercise in logic does not address. If you truly followed my logic then you'd leap to this next thought that if simply finding something was reason enough to have rights to it then the dispute is already moot as I not only 'found' the wrecks first, but I am the reason there was anything to even find.

I do not question your moral point of ownership, I just don't get what your solution adds to the game that does not already exist when someone steals loot from you.
The current system just adds an amount of indirect pvp which wouldn't be present imo if we had it your way.

Quote:
As to is not being worth it, ya sure no doubt you're right. Unfortunately I am not like you, I lack training, I do not possible the training to have the dps to blitz missions and by result salvaging is more than equal to what I gain from blitzing. So, like I've said before, or which you like to simply ignore, something I've elaborated upon many times, your solution is impractical.

I said once you can, I didn't ignore the fact that you can't yet, I wanted to point out that it is no longer a problem once you get there, my bad if I didn't express myself clearly.

Asking to remove the indirect pvp part which some ppl enjoy goes a bit far imo. What you could ask for imo is make it harder to scan down ships/improve mission AI to randomly change target every few minutes/higher skill requirements to salvage or scan effectively, stuff like that would be acceptable as long it doesn't reduce profit to a point in which its not even more profitable for new players.

tl;dr All comes down to whether your idea kills this inirect pvp part of the game or not, opinions differ at this very point.
Riedle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2012-01-07 14:44:12 UTC
SnowxCrash wrote:
Riedle wrote:
SnowxCrash wrote:
Riedle wrote:
Quote:
Well, first off, almost all of the 'solutions' you've all given assume a single pocket mission, so giving solutions which are contingent upon that situation is hardly a solution.



Learn to use your scanner.
There are multiple solutions to your question you are simply saying that you are not willing to do them.
Fine, but stop the whining already.


I can't blame you for missing the post where I stated I already implemented the majority of the solutions available prior to making this thread due to how long it's become, but that's what I did. That's why I'm disappointed with the suggestions given and proposing changes to the system in place.


Well then I guess you missed your own recent post where (as quoted above) you said it was difficult in a mission where there are multiple rooms to detect a ninja salvager in another room which is why I said learn to use your scanner.

You are clearly suffering from a disease called knowitallitus.
kick that then maybe you will learn something.

The only real solution is to salvage the wrecks first. If you can't be botherd to do that then HTFU and stop whining.


Impractical solutions aren't real solutions. If I fit probes I lose my drone aug which, because I'm a new player, limits me to 40km range and many npcs will be too far which means I lose dps and there are npcs where if I don't have my drones I can't get through their rep. Why? It's because I'm NEW and lack training for dps. If I give up 2 slots, for a salvager and tractor then there would probably be l3s where I couldn't get through the rep of some npcs. You're right though, I can be a little bit too arrogant for my own good, but it's with good cause. In my short time in Eve I've been soaking up information as much as I can. Between that accumulation, paying attention to the minutiae of fitting and other activities I've had occasion to teach players who've been playing for years new things they overlooked which were painfully obvious to me, things which let me create fits they were surprised by. All said, I'd be humbled and most gratious for information that offered a practical solution, but no one has given that, you haven't given that, and pretending you have, in order to dismiss my suggestion, is just as impractical in proving a point as your suggestions have been.


dude, are you serious? the scanner... scanner. not probes. as i said you have a lot to learn
Flakey Foont
#92 - 2012-01-07 16:46:21 UTC
Newer players would do well to play awhile before rendering judgment on game mechanics.

I get a bit tired of the "why do we have to wait for skills to train?" or "Why can't you train skills by using them?" or "Why can't we buy skills with real money?"

Or this one.....


Kessiaan
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2012-01-07 17:31:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Kessiaan
SnowxCrash wrote:
Hiding in highsec? Okay, so, I reactivated my acc on..the 12th of Dec. I had +1 imps, a kestrel, and 12m isk, and 6.5m sp bc I spent more time training afk than IG due to the lame learning skillset. For all intensives purposes I was a noob with some basic familiarity with a game which has changed quite a bit in 3yrs. In my first week I was in a cruiser doing l2s. Second week in a Drake doing l3s. Now I can tank l4s but still need to train dps to do many l4s. I've been back less than a month, had remote memories of flying a frig, and you're saying I'm hiding in highsec after only playing for under 3wks? I'm learning the game, I'm learning how to be part of a corp. I suppose to an extend I am hiding in highsec as ensuring I have imps to make training faster seems to be a logical step for a long-term plan to enter PvP and Null well-trained, funded, and familiar with the game. In three wks I've gone from trying to passive tank a Caracal to creating a fit for my Drake that outtanks a Nightmare with faction mods while still lacking significant training.

Perhaps this all bias's me towards other noobs. I came to Eve aware of how things would work out due to convos with established players in other games. I admit perhaps I just can't appreciate the salvaging miniprof. However, what I've seen so far in this thread is very few convincing arguments for this profession and an almost complete disregard or misunderstanding of my explanations of whyl my suggestion is better suited to this situation and how it should play out. Something even you don't seem to understand. Maybe I should elaborate, give you more information so you can. The players in question, that were ninja salvaging, were part of a 100 member corp, a corp that had established players flying Tengus and Navy Issue Ravens. If I popped that players ship the risk I take would be as real as his and could have just as much financial impact, perhaps even more if events escalated and with these possibilities the sandbox nature of the encounters which could happen from ninja salvaging would expand to encompass key aspects of Eve.


I resubbed myself around the same time; granted I had a fair bit more prior experience than you but being away for a while really isn't a fair excuse for not knowing how things work, and I had being -10 with no (active) connections to anyone working against me as well.

Life in low/null is a lot more about your connections than your raw SP totals - most of my skillpoints are invested in mining and Gallente stuff, my current corp flies Minmatar almost exclusively and I refuse to touch a Hulk anymore. But I have BC 5 and excellent gunnery skills, which means I can fly a Hurricane. So I fly a 'cane in PvP, rat in an Ishtar, watch alliance and intel channels for hostiles and follow the FCs directions and I do just fine, despite the fact that a good 2/3 of my SPs are invested in skills I'm not using at the moment. I know some big alliances like to move noobs they've recruited into the game out into null on their first day, just so they don't become dependent on CONCORD (not to mention they can make a lot more money).

Also, keep in mind that highsec shenanigans are just that - in 0.0 if someone invades your mission (or anomaly site, more likely), you get an op together and shoot them. Or dock and wait for them to leave, depending on the situation. Same with can flipping, it just doesn't exist outside of highsec.
Severian Autarch
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2012-01-07 17:32:23 UTC
I've been playing a few weeks, and thought I'd try ninja looting. So I watched all the various videos, trained the right skills, practiced scanning for hours. Found a system with some level four agents. Fitted a probe and a rifter. Undocked.
So I released my combat probes (5 of them), and using what I'd learned, I went to work. Took thirty minutes, but I finally locked in on a battleship at 100% and bookmarked it. I was pumped.

I quickly docked, switched ships, Undocked. Tried to warp to my bookmark. It was too close. So I approached it. Something was wrong. I was going in circles.

Took me a minute to realize that had some scanned my own base. Help!
SnowxCrash
Perkone
Caldari State
#95 - 2012-01-07 18:30:38 UTC  |  Edited by: SnowxCrash
Corny Flakes wrote:
So this is where our opinion differs, you think newbies would still waste a few minutes up to 1h scanning and salvaging despite the chance of 0 profit and getting popped? And no1 but newbies does pure ninja salvaging for profit (unless ofc a broke vet who needs to get a little money to do l4's or whatnot). Our opinion clearly differs here, theres not much any one of us can do to convince eachother. But allow me to clear a few questions you had and answer to opinions.
I suppose so, though I admit I am coming around to the concept that I need to learn much more about Eve to really understand some of the viewpoints being expressed in this thread now.
Corny Flakes wrote:

I don't expect them to fight you, but your solution leads to this(Note: 1&2 are pure salvagers as it is right now, no intention to fight):
1) A ninja ends up having no profit if there is only 1 room as you would pop him before he would even finish salvaging the 1 ship unless you chose not to because you think he will pop you later(or you let him salvage and pop him later to save yourself time).
2) There are more rooms, depending in which one you are, it is still very unlikely that he will get all wrecks. Aditionally there's the risk of loosing everything using the next gate unless you choose not to shoot him.
3) Don't forget I talk about newbies, most of them won't have friends to pop you in return and ofc they don't have the firepower. Which leads to the ones remaining: vets or alts who planned popping you all along, they can already do this if they steal your loot and you shoot em. (Basically what you want already exists with all possible measures and countermeasures)

You think cutting the profit to possibly 0 or everything-1 room, but risk of loosing the ship won't destroy this profession? Well I think it would. See you already often get 0 profit if mission runners have a mate, salvage themselfes, pop wrecks... reducing profit additionally would kill this profession in my opinion(keep in mind mostly newbies do this for profit).

I can't pretend that I could know for certain that this profession wouldn't die off, or be cut down to just the vets who intended on fighting form the start, and I suppose now that there's been quality input like yours I really should get a few months of experience under my belt before going further on this topic.
Corny Flakes wrote:

1)Your situation already exists when stealing loot, thats what I do (likely results in active pewpew sooner or later).
2)We would be missing this miniprofession for newbiescanners and all coutermeasures and interactions you refuse to make and you want that to be replaced with point 1).

This probably has no value to you, but other players like interactions that require a different aproach of pvp(See hauling/market/production...ninjasalvaging is just one of them, it is a part of this game)
Salvaging would imo become part 1), that is replacing indirect pvp with active pvp(removing the carebear part of scanning down mr's)

I was refering at the time invested resulting in profit which is why alot of ppl do this. I doubt a lot of ppl scan to find things that are nice to look at. Just as you run your mission to get LP's, bounty, mission reward and if lucky wrecks ppl scan to make profit.

I suppose this is where we disagree, where no resolution to this disagreement can be found currently

I also know what you were referring to but as you so kindly put it we were following my chain of logic and my logic doesn't presuppose that scanning is reason enough to have claim to something. I said it was my actions, rolling the mission and creating the wrecks by destroying the npcs which gave me sole claim to those wrecks. In order for the intention of scanning for profit to be justification for a claim to an object one would also be able to say that simply through the intention of running a mission to loot and salvage means I have claim to it, which says little about the moral standpoint of what the killrights should be, which is where my suggestion base's itself to a significant degree.

Corny Flakes wrote:

I do not question your moral point of ownership, I just don't get what your solution adds to the game that does not already exist when someone steals loot from you.
The current system just adds an amount of indirect pvp which wouldn't be present imo if we had it your way.

I said once you can, I didn't ignore the fact that you can't yet, I wanted to point out that it is no longer a problem once you get there, my bad if I didn't express myself clearly.
I suppose I just can't appreciate indirect PvP enough to see it's value. Maybe playing Eve more will help with that. idk.

I admit that perhaps my oftenconfrontational nature is as much to blame as the lack of clarification here.
CornyFlakes wrote:


Asking to remove the indirect pvp part which some ppl enjoy goes a bit far imo. What you could ask for imo is make it harder to scan down ships/improve mission AI to randomly change target every few minutes/higher skill requirements to salvage or scan effectively, stuff like that would be acceptable as long it doesn't reduce profit to a point in which its not even more profitable for new players.


I guess I really do have a lot more to learn. I suppose I'm guilty of what I've had to deal with in the past in other game forums. Player's that don't have a high enough grasp of game mechanics to make more subtle and effective suggestions. It's just, between people explaining the flaw of this suggestion through game fiction and repeatedly being told I should just accept things as they are and move on there just didn't seem much cause to entertain this notion until now.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#96 - 2012-01-07 19:31:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Severian Autarch wrote:
I've been playing a few weeks, and thought I'd try ninja looting. So I watched all the various videos, trained the right skills, practiced scanning for hours. Found a system with some level four agents. Fitted a probe and a rifter. Undocked.
So I released my combat probes (5 of them), and using what I'd learned, I went to work. Took thirty minutes, but I finally locked in on a battleship at 100% and bookmarked it. I was pumped.

I quickly docked, switched ships, Undocked. Tried to warp to my bookmark. It was too close. So I approached it. Something was wrong. I was going in circles.

Took me a minute to realize that had some scanned my own base. Help!

You found an acceleration gate. Most missions are in deadspace, which means if you try to warp to anything within, you'll end up at the acceleration gate leading into it instead. Use the acceleration gate.

Also, http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadid=733552


Quote:
Hiding in highsec? Okay, so, I reactivated my acc on..the 12th of Dec. I had +1 imps, a kestrel, and 12m isk, and 6.5m sp bc I spent more time training afk than IG due to the lame learning skillset. For all intensives purposes I was a noob with some basic familiarity with a game which has changed quite a bit in 3yrs. In my first week I was in a cruiser doing l2s. Second week in a Drake doing l3s. Now I can tank l4s but still need to train dps to do many l4s. I've been back less than a month, had remote memories of flying a frig, and you're saying I'm hiding in highsec after only playing for under 3wks? I'm learning the game, I'm learning how to be part of a corp. I suppose to an extend I am hiding in highsec as ensuring I have imps to make training faster seems to be a logical step for a long-term plan to enter PvP and Null well-trained, funded, and familiar with the game. In three wks I've gone from trying to passive tank a Caracal to creating a fit for my Drake that outtanks a Nightmare with faction mods while still lacking significant training.


as I've said multiple times before, level 4 missions are not the domain of new players. It's fine if you want to stay in hisec while you learn the game (though there are certainly players way younger than you who jump out into low and null)...but you cannot run level 4s and claim the protections of a "new player". It doesn't work like that. Just like you wouldn't jump into nullsec and then complain that you didn't know about warp bubbles.

If you are flying a low-skilled drake, then you are not properly running level 4s. You can -do- them, most of them (as you said), but it's very slow. THIS is why ninjasalvagers are killing you. For the average level 4 runner, loot/salvage is a much smaller portion of the total value of the mission and therefore much less of a problem when it is lost (though many of them still ***** and moan when they lose it).

Quote:
However, what I've seen so far in this thread is very few convincing arguments for this profession and an almost complete disregard or misunderstanding of my explanations of whyl my suggestion is better suited to this situation and how it should play out.


Arguments for the profession? Why does this profession need arguments in favor of it? No one on the forums has to defend mining, or missionrunning.

How about this: It's a fun, exciting, player-interactive profession that allows new players to earn good money.


Quote:
If I popped that players ship the risk I take would be as real as his and could have just as much financial impact, perhaps even more if events escalated and with these possibilities the sandbox nature of the encounters which could happen from ninja salvaging would expand to encompass key aspects of Eve.


Firstly, the risk would be entirely in your hands. You would be able to choose whether to take that risk or not. And there would be no risk, because you can just check the age of the player, and by extension tell if he is going to be capable of flying a gankship or not. If the ninjasalvager was a new player then you would be able to get rid of him at absolutely zero risk to yourself.

Once again, running missions in and of itself (even if you completely ignore loot and salvage) is one of the most profitable, riskless, and mindless things one can do in hisec. I don't see how you can demand ninjasalvagers take significant risk when you yourself are unwilling to do so.


Quote:
I guess I really do have a lot more to learn. I suppose I'm guilty of what I've had to deal with in the past in other game forums. Player's that don't have a high enough grasp of game mechanics to make more subtle and effective suggestions. It's just, between people explaining the flaw of this suggestion through game fiction and repeatedly being told I should just accept things as they are and move on there just didn't seem much cause to entertain this notion until now.


I didn't just explain the flaw in terms of game lore. I explained it in terms of game lore and gameplay. There is not a single gameplay downside to the existence of ninjasalvaging other than making level 4 runners marginally less convenient.

remember back when I said level 4 missions were poorly designed? I cannot think of a single other way of making money in EVE that is not subject to competition or depletion. Exploration sites are limited in number. Asteroid belts can get mined out. Trading gets less profitable the more people infest a single market. Missions, however, have no form of competition. Missions scale infinitely, with as many bounties, loot and LPs as there is demand for. Ninjasalvaging at least partially introduces competition into it.
I'thari
#97 - 2012-01-08 12:50:39 UTC  |  Edited by: I'thari
SnowxCrash wrote:
I also know what you were referring to but as you so kindly put it we were following my chain of logic and my logic doesn't presuppose that scanning is reason enough to have claim to something. I said it was my actions, rolling the mission and creating the wrecks by destroying the npcs which gave me sole claim to those wrecks. In order for the intention of scanning for profit to be justification for a claim to an object one would also be able to say that simply through the intention of running a mission to loot and salvage means I have claim to it..
Well, in EVE you started mission and got your claim to it via "free" bookmark - that's it...

As bounty from mission rats goes to whomever did last blow (imagine*), not one who started said mission, same goes for wrecks - whomeever did last "blow" to wreck owns the salvage... it's some dev stupid idea (that loot in wreck should belong to player that killed NPC) that confuses everyone - loot should actually belong to NPC killed and be free for grabs for everyone else (as it is with player wrecks), but it's EVE.

So, if you can't get something faster than other players - you don't deserve it - basic rule of any competitive multiplayer enviroment.


* yes, some people were known to "steal" missions... funny enough, people only complain that salvaging "their" wrecks does not agress other people and never that shooting "their" NPCs doesn't do the same.


PS I also think that it should be possible to scan down wrecks - that would help with salvaging as mini-profession, but then again it's EVE (or CCP - take your pick, for both are not known for being overly logical).

Kahega Amielden wrote:
remember back when I said level 4 missions were poorly designed? I cannot think of a single other way of making money in EVE that is not subject to competition or depletion. Exploration sites are limited in number. Asteroid belts can get mined out. Trading gets less profitable the more people infest a single market. Missions, however, have no form of competition. Missions scale infinitely, with as many bounties, loot and LPs as there is demand for. Ninjasalvaging at least partially introduces competition into it.

Well, there's also: the more people running missions the less valuable isk and LP becomes which is a kind of competition too. Not that it makes L4s suddenly become well-designed: they do provide sort of single-player enviroment, hence all complains.

Disclaimer:

Every single character used in this post is a work of fiction. Any similarities with real-world alphabet, or - god forbid - language is purely unintnetional!

Serge Bastana
GWA Corp
#98 - 2012-01-11 00:50:48 UTC
Riedle wrote:
Quote:
Well, first off, almost all of the 'solutions' you've all given assume a single pocket mission, so giving solutions which are contingent upon that situation is hardly a solution.



Learn to use your scanner.
There are multiple solutions to your question you are simply saying that you are not willing to do them.
Fine, but stop the whining already.



As Riedle mentioned, the directional scanner is most useful in this regard, I used to run missions in a heavily populated mission hub some time back which was frequented by a number of ninja salvagers. The trick I used, if I actually wanted to salvage the mission, was to set my d-scan range to 600 million km (roughly 4au) and keep an eye out for combat probes. If I saw 3 or 4 on scan I would warp out for a few minutes, grab a drink, warp back in and would generally avoid being probed down in my mission.

The added advantage of using this method is that it helps you learn to use the d-scan should you decide to venture into low and null sec. The other way to avoid ninjas is move to a quieter system.

WoW holds your hand until end game, and gives you a cookie whether you win or lose. EVE not only takes your cookie, but laughs at you for bringing one in the first place...

Jorn Isu
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#99 - 2012-01-12 04:09:09 UTC
OP: You seem to have some kind of ego complex. You keep referring to yourself as the poor exploited noob. You do realize that anyone ninja salvaging (and only ninja salvaging, not looting) a slow L4 MR is going to be making a pittance? A good mission might provide 10m or something in salvage, but most are going to be closer to 1-2m. For all of your whines of vets exploiting noobs, It seems more likely that someone much newer and with much less SP than you is behind this.

Signed,
-A month-old Ninja who realized within the first few weeks that "just salvaging" was chump stuff.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#100 - 2012-01-12 04:47:29 UTC

I didn't bother reading all of this...

My method for dealing with ninja salvagers is simple... wait for them to power to a wreck... and blow it up... rinse and repeat until they go away....

It works...