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[December] Command Destroyers

First post First post
Author
Odracir Atosc
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#241 - 2015-11-17 20:16:13 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
Super cool


So you complain about OOG boosts and then you say super cool? What?Roll
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#242 - 2015-11-17 20:18:02 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Lord Jasta wrote:
Yet another item that can't be used in high sec, :( why not have this with a criminal timer?


We really wanted to but even with a criminal timer you would pretty easily be able to destroy incursion fleets, which seemed over the top :(



C'mon...
Why can't THEY scramble each other?
Just a slight nerf. Incursion fleets are OP anyway... ;-)
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#243 - 2015-11-17 20:19:16 UTC
Querns wrote:
Torgeir Hekard wrote:

While in low/null/wh you can shoot a dessie on sight, in hisec you have to patiently wait for it to finish flinging you/NPC out into the void before having a reasonable way to deal with the consequences (assuming it even gets any kind of flag for the trouble). You can't really suicide every command destroyer you meet out of probability it being after you.

Or, the MJFG could create a Suspect Flag upon activation. Pre-target any that land inside your dungeon, and if they go suspect, apply the Warp Scrambler. Then, switch targets, and take it to the MURDERZONE.

Or you could read the part in the thread where it states explicitly that MJFG are banned from activation in hisec...
Roll
Arla Sarain
#244 - 2015-11-17 20:19:23 UTC
Faltzs wrote:
These ships ideally need to focus on a support role rather than being strong damage platforms, either allow 2 links or give boost to items like remote sebo’s.

Have you even bothered looking at the damage...?
Both the corax and talwar have more effective turrets than the Stork or Bifrost.

The armor ones lack the drone HP bonus and will actually be easy to counter by the commonly advised "just shoot the drones" strategy
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#245 - 2015-11-17 20:20:57 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Querns wrote:
Torgeir Hekard wrote:

While in low/null/wh you can shoot a dessie on sight, in hisec you have to patiently wait for it to finish flinging you/NPC out into the void before having a reasonable way to deal with the consequences (assuming it even gets any kind of flag for the trouble). You can't really suicide every command destroyer you meet out of probability it being after you.

Or, the MJFG could create a Suspect Flag upon activation. Pre-target any that land inside your dungeon, and if they go suspect, apply the Warp Scrambler. Then, switch targets, and take it to the MURDERZONE.

Or you could read the part in the thread where it states explicitly that MJFG are banned from activation in hisec...
Roll



Or you could read the comments out of context and debate at hand....Roll
Rosal Milag
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#246 - 2015-11-17 20:24:56 UTC
afkalt wrote:

I swear I'm being trolled.

I do not need to outrun it, I need to move further than 6km away when the dessie is LOCKED to a vector. That's simple. Do you even know how MJDs work for gods sakes?

So..uh...don't be a bad and don't sit on the depot? Jesus god, I would have thought it was obvious but no, apparently not. Drop it if you get jumped, refit to MJD, jump back. Give no more f**ks. Good lord you're hard of thinking.

I'm not even going near the BUT MAH ISK/HOUR garbage you keep bleating about.

So you have a problem with a GANG of people being able to interfere with a SOLE player? Oh god no, not in an MMO, not on my watch!!!

Or kill that target first. Or MJD after it, if it is a solo guy (see above for a gang of people). It is absolutely NO DIFFERENT to someone popping that ship and nicking the drop. Not at all. They even go flashy too. Mission running as a profession hasn't died out, last I looked.


Alright. List all the battleships that can go 1+km/s from a dead stop. With only a MWD and no other prop mods.

If you get jumped, how are you able to refit to a MJD? Why can't the gankers reinforce your depot? Its only a suspect timer.

ISK/HOUR is a relevant argument when adjusting to the change handicaps it excessively. 10% Fine. 20% a bit rough. One ship and module causing your ISK/HOUR to drop by 30% or more? Love how the game is now designed around one ship and one module.

Jumping the target NPC away does a few things. One, it keeps it out of range of the mission runner to give him more time to work on it. Two, his buddies can warp directly to him and keep daisychaining it.

You are demanding answers of why it should not be allowed in high sec. The simplest one, the one I keep returning to is, this changes everything. Everything has to respond to it and be prepared for it. There has never been one module to have such an effect in the game's history in high security space.

Is it possible to prepare for? Yes. In hundreds of ways. Is it cheap to do so, yes. Is it something people could adapt to, yes. Same could be said for bombs, bubbles, and capitals. But the addition of the jump or any of these others fundamentally changes the way the game plays in high security and CCP doesn't want to shift the HS meta that much right now, in this way.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#247 - 2015-11-17 20:25:54 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Querns wrote:
Torgeir Hekard wrote:

While in low/null/wh you can shoot a dessie on sight, in hisec you have to patiently wait for it to finish flinging you/NPC out into the void before having a reasonable way to deal with the consequences (assuming it even gets any kind of flag for the trouble). You can't really suicide every command destroyer you meet out of probability it being after you.

Or, the MJFG could create a Suspect Flag upon activation. Pre-target any that land inside your dungeon, and if they go suspect, apply the Warp Scrambler. Then, switch targets, and take it to the MURDERZONE.

Or you could read the part in the thread where it states explicitly that MJFG are banned from activation in hisec...
Roll



Or you could read the comments out of context and debate at hand....Roll

Why wouldn't i? It's not like the devs take anything in these release threads seriously anyway, why should I?
Kaelynne Rose
WTB Somalians
#248 - 2015-11-17 20:40:49 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Lord Jasta wrote:
Yet another item that can't be used in high sec, :( why not have this with a criminal timer?


We really wanted to but even with a criminal timer you would pretty easily be able to destroy incursion fleets, which seemed over the top :(

Where as currently incursion fleets are basically immune and have zero risk while printing plexes.

Risk=reward.

Incursion fleets NEED risk introduced man.
You cant tell me with a straight face they dont/have balanced risk/reward man.
Midori Tsu
Evolution
Northern Coalition.
#249 - 2015-11-17 20:43:32 UTC
The lack of real counter game play is kind of worrying. Having to fit scrams on every ship is not going to be interesting. This is way too powerful to be put on a throwaway ship (i'm assuming these are going to be cheap because they're t2 destroyers). There needs to be some massive penalities to using this.
DeadDuck
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#250 - 2015-11-17 20:45:25 UTC
I can't imagine nothing worst to kill the small gangs roaming in deep hostile areas where your only way to survive is kitting then watch a cloud of intys instantly jump 100km and be on top of you.

And to make it even easier the only guy that has to be aligned to the target is the command dessie... orbit at 500m and wait for the dessie to activate the module. Shocked
Align Planet1
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#251 - 2015-11-17 20:45:41 UTC
Do like the concept.

Do not like the name "Stork." Everyone will just call it the "Stroke." +1 to Random McNally for "Shrike."
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#252 - 2015-11-17 20:48:09 UTC
Rosal Milag wrote:
afkalt wrote:

I swear I'm being trolled.

I do not need to outrun it, I need to move further than 6km away when the dessie is LOCKED to a vector. That's simple. Do you even know how MJDs work for gods sakes?

So..uh...don't be a bad and don't sit on the depot? Jesus god, I would have thought it was obvious but no, apparently not. Drop it if you get jumped, refit to MJD, jump back. Give no more f**ks. Good lord you're hard of thinking.

I'm not even going near the BUT MAH ISK/HOUR garbage you keep bleating about.

So you have a problem with a GANG of people being able to interfere with a SOLE player? Oh god no, not in an MMO, not on my watch!!!

Or kill that target first. Or MJD after it, if it is a solo guy (see above for a gang of people). It is absolutely NO DIFFERENT to someone popping that ship and nicking the drop. Not at all. They even go flashy too. Mission running as a profession hasn't died out, last I looked.


Alright. List all the battleships that can go 1+km/s from a dead stop. With only a MWD and no other prop mods.


Unfit, even an abaddon can. I'm not sure there is one that can't, actually.

Rosal Milag wrote:
If you get jumped, how are you able to refit to a MJD? Why can't the gankers reinforce your depot? Its only a suspect timer.


Oh so now there's a gang? Way to move the goalposts. Why are they not just ganking the mission bear? Maybe because....no-one will use T2 ships for that, plus there is not a single reason to move ANYONE in a mission for a gank. Not one.

And these mission runners, not watching for probes? Not seeing an armada incoming and can't warp out? Right. Ok.

You are clutching at straws and moving the goalposts when caught out.

Rosal Milag wrote:
ISK/HOUR is a relevant argument when adjusting to the change handicaps it excessively. 10% Fine. 20% a bit rough. One ship and module causing your ISK/HOUR to drop by 30% or more? Love how the game is now designed around one ship and one module.


One module on a ship you may never even see. Carry an alternate fitting, it's not rocket science. It doesn't handicap a damn thing any more than me warping out when I see a dozen thrashers on a short scan.

It's only a handicap if you ALLOW it to be, or are generally just bad.

They could put these in the game tomorrow and my high sec mission income would not even move. Not an inch.

Rosal Milag wrote:
Jumping the target NPC away does a few things. One, it keeps it out of range of the mission runner to give him more time to work on it. Two, his buddies can warp directly to him and keep daisychaining it.


Only in an ungated mission and honestly, people won't do that, it's simpler and easier to pop the rat and steal the loot. Something only really done in cosmos missions these days. Point is, this is doable TODAY with the same ramifications but with less exposure.


It changes very little for the bad. It rewards the prepared, this is good. It rewards cooperation, this is good and it punishes the sloppy, the lazy and the feckless. This is also good. It creates options for dealing with otherwise impossible situations (docking games, for one) this is also good.


You've made a plethora of bad excuses revolving around isk/hour and absolute edge cases, demonstrated a terrible understanding of game mechanics from ganking to missions and constantly assumed the "victim" is utterly brain dead and not remotely competent whilst painting the gankers as superhuman monsters who can elegant interweave both alignment and server ticks 100% perfectly, can go from one guy to a fleet when it suits.

Honestly, it's a pretty poor show, you've basically got nothing beyond (a wildly hyperbolic) "don't take away my isk/hour". Which is fine, but that's not a reason to not introduce a mod.
Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#253 - 2015-11-17 20:51:19 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Rosal Milag wrote:
afkalt wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Lord Jasta wrote:
Yet another item that can't be used in high sec, :( why not have this with a criminal timer?


We really wanted to but even with a criminal timer you would pretty easily be able to destroy incursion fleets, which seemed over the top :(



It's not over the top. It's hilarious and moreover, some needed risk to that community.


When there is no counterplay, its over the top. Specifically referring to the ability of these destroyers to warp into an incursion fight, activate without anyone stopping them and killing the fleet as the logi is now 100km away and useless.

In low and null, as soon as the destroyer lands, its able to be killed. In high sec, you get concorded. Even a criminal timer when it activates isn't enough, both for the fleet to kill it or for it to activate before concord kills it in certain systems.



There is instant counterplay.

You can scram it, thus shutting off the module AND tackling the ship. Which is both flashy and surrounded by several thousand DPS. It'll have a bad time.


Again, if you can expect combat fleets to do this, you can JUST as easily expect incursion fleets to do this.


ed: And it should only go suspect, imo.


There is zero counter play to this. Have you ever tried to lock a saber or an interceptor while under 10% TiDi? You can't, unless the pilot is completely ********. Unless this module massively blooms your sig, this will be a huge detriment to large fights.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#254 - 2015-11-17 20:55:17 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Allison A'vani wrote:


There is zero counter play to this. Have you ever tried to lock a saber or an interceptor while under 10% TiDi? You can't, unless the pilot is completely ********. Unless this module massively blooms your sig, this will be a huge detriment to large fights.


Well considering all the other mjds do....why would it not?

Sebo HIC will do just fine.
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
#255 - 2015-11-17 20:58:30 UTC
Kaelynne Rose wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Lord Jasta wrote:
Yet another item that can't be used in high sec, :( why not have this with a criminal timer?


We really wanted to but even with a criminal timer you would pretty easily be able to destroy incursion fleets, which seemed over the top :(

Where as currently incursion fleets are basically immune and have zero risk while printing plexes.

Risk=reward.

Incursion fleets NEED risk introduced man.
You cant tell me with a straight face they dont/have balanced risk/reward man.



They are balanced the way CCP wants them to be.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#256 - 2015-11-17 20:59:20 UTC
Kaelynne Rose wrote:
Where as currently incursion fleets are basically immune and have zero risk while printing plexes.

Risk=reward.

Incursion fleets NEED risk introduced man.
You cant tell me with a straight face they dont/have balanced risk/reward man.

A couple of Thrashers can wreck any incursion ship inside the incursion sites. A Blackbird can jeopardize an entire fleet if they jam the logis just long enough. Don't confuse your own lack of imagination and knowledge with facts and make people believe that risk-inducing activities are not applied on the server.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#257 - 2015-11-17 21:00:14 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
Kaelynne Rose wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Lord Jasta wrote:
Yet another item that can't be used in high sec, :( why not have this with a criminal timer?


We really wanted to but even with a criminal timer you would pretty easily be able to destroy incursion fleets, which seemed over the top :(

Where as currently incursion fleets are basically immune and have zero risk while printing plexes.

Risk=reward.

Incursion fleets NEED risk introduced man.
You cant tell me with a straight face they dont/have balanced risk/reward man.



They are balanced the way CCP wants them to be.



Yeah but so were a lot of things, until they weren't.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#258 - 2015-11-17 21:00:31 UTC
Onslaughtor wrote:
I absolutely love these things. I have a few questions tho about them which I haven't seen answered yet.

Does the pwg reduction for links apply to command possessors as well?

Can it jump/blink a marauders in bastion? If so that sees a little unfair, and could we get a reasoning for it?

Battleships will have a very hard time countering these things, even with support , could a special active module be made to allow battleships to self scramble? Thoughts?

Perhaps battleships and BCs could have a module which has an AEO scramble affect. I'm all for adding unique BS and BC modules and that would be super useful not only as a counter to these command destroyers, but also in general.
Rosal Milag
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#259 - 2015-11-17 21:05:12 UTC
Quote:


Only in an ungated mission and honestly, people won't do that, it's simpler and easier to pop the rat and steal the loot. Something only really done in cosmos missions these days. Point is, this is doable TODAY with the same ramifications but with less exposure.


It changes very little for the bad. It rewards the prepared, this is good. It rewards cooperation, this is good and it punishes the sloppy, the lazy and the feckless. This is also good. It creates options for dealing with otherwise impossible situations (docking games, for one) this is also good.


You've made a plethora of bad excuses revolving around isk/hour and absolute edge cases, demonstrated a terrible understanding of game mechanics from ganking to missions and constantly assumed the "victim" is utterly brain dead and not remotely competent whilst painting the gankers as superhuman monsters who can elegant interweave both alignment and server ticks 100% perfectly, can go from one guy to a fleet when it suits.

Honestly, it's a pretty poor show, you've basically got nothing beyond (a wildly hyperbolic) "don't take away my isk/hour". Which is fine, but that's not a reason to not introduce a mod.



Then why not look at the newbie? High sec is consensual pvp with the exception suicide ganks and MTU/depots. This action clearly is a PvP action and should be counted as a criminal action. The net effect is equivalent to applying a web to someone, but still gets you concorded.

If jumping anyone not a valid target gives you a criminal timer, I'd be all for it. Similar to smartbomb use in High Sec. As that would require coordination and sacrifice on the part of the ganker and not just jumps for the lulz.

My arguments about ganking revolve mainly around the miniluv and code freighter ganks. If they will kill empty T1 freighters, a white knight command destroyer isn't going to save any ship they target. Especially in light of hyperdunking history. The regen of shields on a freighter is so low that you can gank a ship with under critical numbers and just keep bumping it away. Granted it leaves more time for someone to white knight. But hitting a target with fewer ships than necessary to pop the target doesn't mean its a failed gank. Just means a reset and reattack.

Please make a good argument for a suspect only timer.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#260 - 2015-11-17 21:19:25 UTC
Rosal Milag wrote:
Quote:


Only in an ungated mission and honestly, people won't do that, it's simpler and easier to pop the rat and steal the loot. Something only really done in cosmos missions these days. Point is, this is doable TODAY with the same ramifications but with less exposure.


It changes very little for the bad. It rewards the prepared, this is good. It rewards cooperation, this is good and it punishes the sloppy, the lazy and the feckless. This is also good. It creates options for dealing with otherwise impossible situations (docking games, for one) this is also good.


You've made a plethora of bad excuses revolving around isk/hour and absolute edge cases, demonstrated a terrible understanding of game mechanics from ganking to missions and constantly assumed the "victim" is utterly brain dead and not remotely competent whilst painting the gankers as superhuman monsters who can elegant interweave both alignment and server ticks 100% perfectly, can go from one guy to a fleet when it suits.

Honestly, it's a pretty poor show, you've basically got nothing beyond (a wildly hyperbolic) "don't take away my isk/hour". Which is fine, but that's not a reason to not introduce a mod.



Then why not look at the newbie? High sec is consensual pvp with the exception suicide ganks and MTU/depots. This action clearly is a PvP action and should be counted as a criminal action. The net effect is equivalent to applying a web to someone, but still gets you concorded.

If jumping anyone not a valid target gives you a criminal timer, I'd be all for it. Similar to smartbomb use in High Sec. As that would require coordination and sacrifice on the part of the ganker and not just jumps for the lulz.

My arguments about ganking revolve mainly around the miniluv and code freighter ganks. If they will kill empty T1 freighters, a white knight command destroyer isn't going to save any ship they target. Especially in light of hyperdunking history. The regen of shields on a freighter is so low that you can gank a ship with under critical numbers and just keep bumping it away. Granted it leaves more time for someone to white knight. But hitting a target with fewer ships than necessary to pop the target doesn't mean its a failed gank. Just means a reset and reattack.

Please make a good argument for a suspect only timer.


Hyperdunking or undermanned ganking would still use bumpers because of the headcount, the MJD cooldown timer, the fact the bumper is protected by concord and the dessies would not be. Hell ganking as a whole will still use bumpers, it's a 3 minute cooldown on MJD mods, that's an eternity, you would need a fair few to make that work. More efficient, safer and predictable to continue using bumping machs.



As for suspect: Because criminal is binary, it doesn't really create good interaction opportunities.

It also basically kills all the nifty uses of this I already listed.

When you think about it, there are most of equivalents these in game already. Not all, but most and they have suspect/no flagging attached.


>Nicking mission rats/items is analogous to ninja looting and that is suspect.

>Moving ships around against their will is essentially bumping which carries no flagging at all (albeit the reasons may be mechanical rather than intention). No problem with a "mass bump" carrying a flag, that is reasonable.

Most important thing is, it's a dial that can be turned. It could start suspect then go criminal if it was really bad or LATER removed from highsec if that was still not enough. Banning it outright, out of the gate means we will never know and an opportunity is lost.