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Make Ganking(and real PvP) in Hi Sec a boon for PvE
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Aden Ordinii

Mars-Alpha Works

Likes received: 24

#1 - 2015-11-12 22:54:46 UTC

Hello fellow capsuleers

We all know, ganking is, will be part of hi sec. Instead of adding to the many voices to nerf it, lets make it intresting for PvE.
My idea, in lower Hi Sec systems, depending on destroyd Playerships(by gank, concord, dualls or what ever) there could spawn a 5 or 6/10 DED site. with attractiv drops. Risk reward style. Those who want to try and get the loot, and with some shiny drops maybe attrackt pirats, baiters gankers. The spawn should be limited by time, to the kill amount in system.

Example:

Niarja a 0.5 Amarr-Jita Pipe system, no stations.

Its 0100h ET, about 40 ships died in the last houre, and a 5/10 DED spawns. Lets say a Siterunner ina Gila goes after it, ganker scouts pic up the site, too. warp in cloakd. The runner ends the site, a nice blue item drops(maybe 300mil)...there is a Gila worth a good 250mil plus 300mil drop...a half a billion isk worth of a potential KM.
Or the Site dosent get run, and there hasent been enought killing until 0200h ET, the site despawns. The reaon or lore idea is, because Concord is over workd in that system NPC Pirats try a fast thing in there.

this topic isent about a nerf!

Broke Sauce 4,077
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce Likes received: 4,077	#2 - 2015-11-12 23:12:35 UTC 4 Except what will happen is the gankers will just run sites. And artificially cause kills to get sites to spawn if they have to. Always consider what the abuses possible are.

Xe'Cara'eos

A Big Enough Lever

Likes received: 412

#3 - 2015-11-12 23:29:35 UTC

you'd have to measure it in terms of isk value ganked, and people would still probably find a way to game it.

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.


Aden Ordinii Mars-Alpha Works Likes received: 24	#4 - 2015-11-13 23:50:20 UTC true...its eve, there is allways the idea and a counteridea how to abuse it. but it was just an idea to use the current gankgalore, instead of only call to nerf it. i have lots of ideas all day long, even befor i thougth it throu, the abuse thought forms up.

Reaver Glitterstim

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 3,058

#5 - 2015-11-14 02:33:30 UTC

Aden Ordinii wrote:

true...its eve, there is allways the idea and a counteridea how to abuse it.

The trick is to count on the counteridea and balance it into a valid and fair form of gameplay.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Aden Ordinii

Mars-Alpha Works

Likes received: 24

#6 - 2015-11-14 05:24:20 UTC

Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Except what will happen is the gankers will just run sites. And artificially cause kills to get sites to spawn if they have to.

Always consider what the abuses possible are.

Thats the idea, kills in hi sec happen anyway. Yes the idea is, to make a site in hi sec wich should be handeld, like a low sec or null sec site...you dont know who allready is there. Risk Reward!


Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce Likes received: 4,077	#7 - 2015-11-14 05:30:29 UTC Except it's not risk reward. And you are totally not understanding what is actually meant by that statement. It's a blatantly exploitable system which hands even more reward to the low risk ganker.

Reaver Glitterstim

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 3,058

#8 - 2015-11-14 05:57:17 UTC

Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Except it's not risk reward. And you are totally not understanding what is actually meant by that statement.

It's a blatantly exploitable system which hands even more reward to the low risk ganker.

I don't believe it is blatantly exploitable. Please explain how one would go about exploiting this system.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Xe'Cara'eos

A Big Enough Lever

Likes received: 412

#9 - 2015-11-14 05:57:34 UTC

how about these sites form from isk-value destroyed and are only accessible to those with a sec status of say.... 1.0 or over?

Reaver Glitterstim

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 3,058

#10 - 2015-11-14 09:37:11 UTC

Xe'Cara'eos wrote:

how about these sites form from isk-value destroyed and are only accessible to those with a sec status of say.... 1.0 or over?

Part of the fun is having pirates in them. No need to make that a chore for the pirates.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Aden Ordinii

Mars-Alpha Works

Likes received: 24

#11 - 2015-11-14 13:20:03 UTC

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

Xe'Cara'eos wrote:

how about these sites form from isk-value destroyed and are only accessible to those with a sec status of say.... 1.0 or over?

Part of the fun is having pirates in them. No need to make that a chore for the pirates.

oh...the perma -10 Pirat is a myth..even Loyal has positiv standings sometimes, Globby is only -1.9 atm...but thats not the point. Every aspect in EvE will be abused at one point, when WH came out, it wasent pland that you live there for months, fight wars in it. AFK ratting carriers go in to the same, sure the Carebear inme would like the idea of good isk, for low risk, but i am an EvE Player so there canot be safe in a idea for the game. It is ment to be risky, yes maybe they make some extra bucks with that, nothing more as killing a 60bn Hauler in the same system.
Hek, i even dont know if its technicaly possible to do such a thing, but it could bring a bit of riskyspace mechanic to Hi Sec, not just boring grind. Like the Burners(oh i die only to them).

Drunken Beaver Mining 222
Syeed Ameer Ali Drunken Beaver Mining Likes received: 222	#12 - 2015-11-14 13:32:26 UTC 1 Nevyn Auscent wrote: Except what will happen is the gankers will just run sites. And artificially cause kills to get sites to spawn if they have to. Always consider what the abuses possible are. Yes, gankers love running PVE sites, this is known. everevolutionaryfront.blogspot.com

Aden Ordinii

Mars-Alpha Works

Likes received: 24

#13 - 2015-11-14 13:42:41 UTC

Syeed Ameer Ali wrote:

Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Except what will happen is the gankers will just run sites. And artificially cause kills to get sites to spawn if they have to.

Always consider what the abuses possible are.

Yes, gankers love running PVE sites, this is known.

Yep, its cald rating in Dekline...pleas, we all know where most isk comes from, the honst PvP Pirat who does it for getting rich is nearly gone, even gankers rat!

Darth Squeemus

Doomheim

Likes received: 23

#14 - 2015-11-14 17:08:57 UTC | Edited by: Darth Squeemus

I think hisec ganking is balanced well enough as it is. The ore that's available to miners in HS isn't very valuable, so gankers don't get very big returns from miners. The most valuable thing HS miners usually have on them are their T2 Strip Miners (if they're even using T2s). One T2 strip miner is roughly enough to replace one gank-fit Catalyst (might not even replace the hull + entire fit, depending on where you sell).

Contrary to popular belief, not all gankers gank indiscriminately. You have to pick between a target that will go down quickly, so that you know that you will have a drop to pick up, and a target that has a chance to drop better loot but also has an improved tank. If the tank is too strong, it's not a good target because CC will be on you before you get the kill.

So Proc/Skiffs are out because they only have one high slot, not to mention it takes too much time to burn through their tank. The Ret/Mack have the largest ore holds and the weakest tank, but have only 2 high slots. So if the ganker is looking for a kill, these are the good ones to go for. Decent chance to drop at least one of their two strips, and a decent amount of whatever the miner was mining. Then there are the Cov/Hulk. If I'm not mistaken, they have the smallest ore hold, but have better yield than the Ret/Mack, and have a tank that lands somewhere between the other two barges/exhumers. If the ganker is going for profit, he will likely go for a Cov/Hulk because it has a chance to drop three strips and a little bit of ore on the side. However, the ganker might consider fleeting up with another ganker, or maybe a few others, to take one of these down, which will mean that he is obligated by default to split the profit evenly between all involved parties. Then there's the sec status and criminal status issue, which really does complicate things, as you will know if you've ever been -5 or lower.

From the miner's PoV, they have to choose between a ship with heavy tank, one high slot and a not-so-impressive ore hold, a ship with a sharty tank with two highs, low yield, but a big ore hold, and a ship with three highs, high yield, and workable tank, but the smallest ore hold of its two respective counterparts. I think that the risk v. reward relationship between miners and gankers is pretty well balanced. Especially considering that, according to a few people I know, you can mine in a Proc/Skiff in a 0.5 system, making you a worthless target for gankers, and you can still mine most, or at least a large chunk of, what you you need for your industry or whatever you're doing. It just takes a little bit longer.

Your proposal would force me to finally agree with the miners' argument that there isn't enough risk to gankers for their potential reward. Nobody would gank Covs/Hulks anymore because the greater reward would come from sites that spawn based on how many ship/pod kills have happened. So all the gankers would go after the Rets/Macks, the ones with the weakest tank, because the gankers aren't looking for profit from their miners anymore. Instead they'd be looking for profit from the sites that will spawn. Meaning that they get to pad their KB AND they get to run sites that spawn based on their activity. And you can't balance it by locking gankers out of the sites because 1) the server doesn't know who is a "ganker" and who isn't, it only knows who killed what and where the kill happened, and 2) because the gankers would just log in on an alt and run the site.

I like the idea behind your proposal. Lore-wise, it would make sense for npc pirates to take advantage of the fact that CC is distracted by more threatening activity, but it would make a huge loophole for gankers and would throw the risk v. reward out of balance. Sorry, I have to -1 this.


Aden Ordinii Mars-Alpha Works Likes received: 24	#15 - 2015-11-15 16:59:28 UTC thanks for this werry good argument, as i said. its an idea, ideas grow or fail in descusions like this. and good points. And, an idea that just stays in your head is wasted, better to put an idea in pixels and maybe its good or lesser good but its there to discus

Rawketsled

Generic Corp Name

Likes received: 532

#16 - 2015-11-15 23:55:10 UTC

Step 1.

Find a low-value item that doesn't get much circulation.

Step 2.

Buy all of the item off the market.

Step 3.

Relist items at a billion ISK a piece.

Step 4.

Pack your Ibis with this item.

Step 5.

Gank the Ibis. Repeatedly.

This is how you get those spawns in remote areas of hi-sec. If the system works off total ships killed, then destroying lots of cheap ships is the order of the day. If the system works off ISK-value of the KMs, then market manipulation will be ther order of the day.

baltec1

Bat Country

Pandemic Horde

Likes received: 19,001

#17 - 2015-11-16 00:04:12 UTC

Rawketsled wrote:

We pulled a similar thing when FW was introduced, made trillions and forced CCP to fix it.


Rawketsled Generic Corp Name Likes received: 532	#18 - 2015-11-16 00:57:12 UTC Precisely what I based it off.

GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 24
BoneyTooth Thompkins ISK-Chip GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation Likes received: 24	#19 - 2015-11-17 06:47:21 UTC 1 This is a really bad idea and I promise you it would work out much better for me than it would for anyone else. It would be incredibly easy to get 1-2 people to fly around running sites (with 15 minutes per site between ganks) during any normal fleet. You would essentially be using PvE to pay for my ganking.