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History Question: when did avoiding losing your ship to CONCORD...

Author
Petrified
Grimm Hounds
SONS of BANE
#1 - 2015-11-13 03:51:12 UTC
History Question: when did avoiding losing your ship to CONCORD become considered an exploit? I simply cannot remember if it was since release or if it was declared sometime between then and 2009.

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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#2 - 2015-11-13 03:54:16 UTC
Sometime between. Since you used to be able to tank concord, which lead to a certain.... 'incident' which resulted in the current concord.
And why anyone with a brain knows tankable concord coming back would ruin the game.
Petrified
Grimm Hounds
SONS of BANE
#3 - 2015-11-13 03:58:08 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Sometime between. Since you used to be able to tank concord, which lead to a certain.... 'incident' which resulted in the current concord.
And why anyone with a brain knows tankable concord coming back would ruin the game.


Never heard of anyone saying tankable CONCORD would be returning.

When was that specific incident... let see if google is my friend today.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#4 - 2015-11-13 04:04:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
2012 I think:

http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploit-notification-boomerang-avoiding-concord-in-high-security-space.-updated/

Boomerang is no longer an exploit, since it's not possible to do anymore.

Edit: Though, it might have been declared an exploit to avoid CONCORD before then too. (I see you got in below while I was editing too. So sorry for that).
Petrified
Grimm Hounds
SONS of BANE
#5 - 2015-11-13 04:11:23 UTC
I am pretty sure it was no later than 2009 when attempting to avoid losing your ship to concord was considered an exploit (by warping off at least). That 2012 notification is regarding a method of delaying concord's destruction of your ship so you can kill someone else: Boomeranging.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#6 - 2015-11-13 04:22:50 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
History Lesson

Back when EVE was young (circa 2004 to 2005) the main trade hub of EVE of Yulai. The reason for this was because there used to be "superhighways" between Yulai and all the main "capital regions" of the four factions.
(NOTE: CCP removed these highways to promote more "regional markets" rather than one centralized market hub... which, from their point of view, would promote more prices differences and thus more conflict).

Around this same time, CONCORD used to be tankable. And I mean that literally. You could actually tank CONCORD.

Then an infamous "pirate corporation" by the name of MoO decided to test how tankable it was. MoO assembled their members and, fitted with remote reps, decided to camp one of the "superhighway" gates leading to Yulai.
MoO camped the gate for hours... nuking everyone and anyone who came through and tanking CONCORD at the same time.

After awhile, enough people complained that the DEVs got involved. They kindly asked MoO to stop and go elsewhere. MoO responded by giving the DEVs the finger.
So the DEVs did what anyone with godlike-server-hacks does to disobedient people in a war-soaked dystopian game; they teleported all the present members of MoO to the outer reaches of the map... separately. They all had to make their way back to high-sec alone.

Soon after... CONCORD was buffed to their current strength (see: they insta-gib offenders after a small period of time) and the "no avoidance" rule was created. But it doesn't stop there.


Fast forward to 2008-2009... CONCORD is again buffed to their current response times (5 seconds for 1.0 space, 15 seconds for 0.5 space).


Fast forward again to 2012-ish. People have now found ways to "skirt" around the "no avoidance of CONCORD" rule.
The "boomerang" tactic was where you would attack/gank someone and then warp off (provided you ganked fast enough and were already aligned). This allowed people to select two targets and gank both before succumbing to CONCORD.

While technically this trick did not violate the rule of "no avoiding CONCORD" (because CONCORD would catch up to you by the time one started the second gank) the DEVs decided that it violated the "spirit" of the rule. So they coded in a new rule that disallowed warping as soon as "illegal aggression" occurred in high-sec.


tldr; it has been a long, long time since the rule was created. But that doesn't stop people from pushing some boundaries. And the DEVs seem okay with this as long as no blatant avoidance of CONCORD retribution occurs.
Petrified
Grimm Hounds
SONS of BANE
#7 - 2015-11-13 04:31:02 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
History Lesson

Back when EVE was young (circa 2004 to 2005) the main trade hub of EVE of Yulai. The reason for this was because there used to be "superhighways" between Yulai and all the main "capital regions" of the four factions.
(NOTE: CCP removed these highways to promote more "regional markets" rather than one centralized market hub... which, from their point of view, would promote more prices differences and thus more conflict).

Around this same time, CONCORD used to be tankable. And I mean that literally. You could actually tank CONCORD.

Then an infamous "pirate corporation" by the name of MoO decided to test how tankable it was. MoO assembled their members and, fitted with remote reps, decided to camp one of the "superhighway" gates leading to Yulai.
MoO camped the gate for hours... nuking everyone and anyone who came through and tanking CONCORD at the same time.

After awhile, enough people complained that the DEVs got involved. They kindly asked MoO to stop and go elsewhere. MoO responded by giving the DEVs the finger.
So the DEVs did what anyone with godlike-server-hacks does to disobedient people in a war-soaked dystopian game; they teleported all the present members of MoO to the outer reaches of the map... separately. They all had to make their way back to high-sec alone.

Soon after... CONCORD was buffed to their current strength (see: they insta-gib offenders after a small period of time) and the "no avoidance" rule was created. But it doesn't stop there.


Fast forward to 2008-2009... CONCORD is again buffed to their current response times (5 seconds for 1.0 space, 15 seconds for 0.5 space).


Fast forward again to 2012-ish. People have now found ways to "skirt" around the "no avoidance of CONCORD" rule.
The "boomerang" tactic was where you would attack/gank someone and then warp off (provided you ganked fast enough and were already aligned). This allowed people to select two targets and gank both before succumbing to CONCORD.

While technically this trick did not violate the rule of "no avoiding CONCORD" (because CONCORD would catch up to you by the time one started the second gank) the DEVs decided that it violated the "spirit" of the rule. So they coded in a new rule that disallowed warping as soon as "illegal aggression" occurred in high-sec.


tldr; it has been a long, long time since the rule was created. But that doesn't stop people from pushing some boundaries. And the DEVs seem okay with this as long as no blatant avoidance of CONCORD retribution occurs.


Good read. But when was avoiding the complete loss of your ship declared an exploit that could lead to being banned - the 'Yulai incident' with MoO specifically? That was when, 2005?

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#8 - 2015-11-13 05:16:08 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Unsure. Most of my pre-2009 knowledge has come from bittervets who have been playing since the game began.
I would like to say soon after the Yulai incident. But I cannot confirm that without digging through mountains of patch notes (and sobering up). Which I am not really inclined to do (for both things Cool ).

What I can say for sure is that the rule of "no avoidance" has been getting tighter and tighter as the years have gone by.
Thierry Orlenard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2015-11-13 05:56:30 UTC
The Yulai massacre and response was in early March of 2004, according to posts on the old forums found through googling.

LordInvisible
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2015-11-13 08:30:59 UTC
Nah, I dont think the Yulai incident was the trigger.

I remember back from 2004/05 i think when you could still tank concord in a dread, and yes, we used to have capitals in high sec..

Shortly after someone "abused" that, concord got buffed to instagibbing stuff..
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#11 - 2015-11-13 08:53:33 UTC
The rule was certainly in place before I began in late 2005. It has been "revised" several times since then (the most notable being when someone thought warping around in-system until their GCC ran out would be a good idea, boomerang being another).

CONCORD were "tankable" (very much in theory rather than practice after the Yulai incident) until relatively recently (perhaps a misleading phrase, I would guess 2006-2007 perhaps) - Chribba posted a video once showing the Veldnaught (on Sisi) sieged and tanking for as long as it had cap boosters...
For a reasonable time after Yulai gank ships would be fitted with plates and extenders to extend the EHP buffer and thus the time available to kill the target.
Petrified
Grimm Hounds
SONS of BANE
#12 - 2015-11-13 22:04:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrified
Thanks. It was one of those curiosities I had. I had initially played EVE on release, but because I had no love at the time for paying a monthly fee, I dropped the game and had an on/off relationship with it until recently. There just end up being funny tid bits that get missed over time when one is not playing EVE - this is one of them.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#13 - 2015-11-14 15:05:01 UTC
Stand still for your spanking. Don't make me chase you or I'll really shred.

There just isn't anything that can be said!

Jarod Garamonde
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2015-11-14 15:51:35 UTC
History lesson: Tank CEO is responsible for probably 70% of the rules in EVE, if not more. Including this one.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Mike Adoulin
The Clown Shoe Crew
P I R A T
#15 - 2015-11-14 16:20:22 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
So the DEVs did what anyone with godlike-server-hacks does to disobedient people in a war-soaked dystopian game; they teleported all the present members of MoO to the outer reaches of the map... separately. They all had to make their way back to high-sec alone......



You forgot the part where CCP Alliance (which was wardeccable back then, and consisted of CCP employee's/dev's) jumped into their Internet Spaceships and tried to clear the MoO gatecamp.

Hilarity ensued.

After crawling off and licking their wounds, then the dev's unleashed God-Hack Mode.

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.

Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2015-11-14 16:35:10 UTC
I think that in some point during the boomerang period it was also possible to escape to wormhole to avoid wrath of concord totally.... but could be that I remember wrong.

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Thierry Orlenard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2015-11-14 16:39:13 UTC
From my reading of the old forums, I'm gathering that another Corp unrelated to MoO was involved as well, one called Zombies Inc. Apparently on one evening, they camped one incoming gate with a shield-tanked Apoc, with a few players assigned to repping it. The Apoc attacked CONCORD and CONCORD attacked the Apoc while ignoring the players repping it and the players killing and podding everyone who jumped through the stargate into Yulai.

CCP was angry enough, and considered the incident to be full-on griefing, that Zombies Inc. were banned and anyone who lost a ship in the incident was fully reimbursed.

Leeluvv
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#18 - 2015-11-14 23:22:22 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
I think that in some point during the boomerang period it was also possible to escape to wormhole to avoid wrath of concord totally.... but could be that I remember wrong.



At some point this was changed and you got a message akin to 'Voodoo magic stops you from entering the wormhole'