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The Worst (allegedly) Marauders

Author
Justin Cody
War Firm
#1 - 2015-11-13 01:06:59 UTC
The Paladin and the Kronos are widely regared as the worst (pvp wise) of the marauders as they are entirely cap dependent whereas the shield counterparts have capless weapons and potentially capless defensive systems with ASB's or even *shudder* a passive recharge tank.

The Paladin Traits

Amarr BS/Level

  • 5% Bonus to capacitor capacity
  • 7.5% to Large Energy Turret Optimal Range


Marauders Bonus/Level

  • 7.5% to Armor Repair Amount
  • 5% to Large Energy Turret Damage


Role Bonus
100% to Large Energy Turret Damage (you only have 4 turrets so this is necessary at least)
100% to tractor beams range and velocity (OK nice pve bonus)
70% reduction in MJD reactivation delay (daddy like)
Can Fit Bastion Modules - Not really a bonus so much as required for operation

The Paladin suffers from no application bonus that is...no tracking. Projection is great...as long as you're shooting a BC+ ship in size. The real difficulty is that even with an enormous capacitor it can be take out of the fight by a couple neuts...and it just takes a bit longer if it is injecting.

Honestly? just change the turret damage to tracking of 7.5%/level and up the role bonus to 125% -> 150% and make the fittings generous enough that you can dual rep with tachyons with 2x t2 grid rigs and have high slot neuts and nos and/or smartbombs.

I can fit cap batteries to help against neuts and such. That I don't mind. Of course I'd like a look at cap batteries to see if their fittings need adjustment as well as if they are effective enough at countering nos/neut warfare. I'm sorta ignorant as to their effectiveness. Maybe people can clear up that part.

The Kronos suffers just as much from being subjected to cap warfare too commonly. but I like it. I fly it all the time and honestly its great for holding onto a carrier that is caught ratting. And of course in limited engagements.

All marauders could use more agility and an improved base warp speed to be like command ships (3.0au/sec or at least up to 2.7).

o7
BABARR
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#2 - 2015-11-13 01:37:41 UTC
Marauder are not designed for PVP.
CCP say that many time. So just skill varg or golem if you want pvp whith marauder, that all.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2015-11-13 01:53:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
BABARR wrote:
Marauder are not designed for PVP.
CCP say that many time. So just skill varg or golem if you want pvp whith marauder, that all.


From the thread for their rebalance.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Marauders were initially released during the Trinity expansion in 2007 and were aimed for PvE activities. However, as time passed and we rebalanced other classes, especially the Pirate Battleships, they lost appeal as a whole.

We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#4 - 2015-11-13 02:01:55 UTC
They are not badly balanced, the problem is the vast bulk of people think battleships cant pvp and have no idea how to fit or use them.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#5 - 2015-11-13 02:17:25 UTC
The actual problem you are complaining about OP is the overpowering nature of the ASB's especially when dual ASB fitted.
Not the base ships.

Though I would love a buff to the Paladins, and even more I'd love them to actually 'maraud' like their description says rather than turn into expensive loot pinata's that are stationary, first address the modules causing the issue.
Flyinghotpocket
Doomheim
#6 - 2015-11-13 03:05:06 UTC
frankly all the fault lies with the asb. the asb needs to be changed or banned from fitting on these ship classes. once the asb is fixed than all the t2 battleships will be in line.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#7 - 2015-11-13 03:37:32 UTC
The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in our ASB's... William Shakespeare

The ASB is a truly abominable module that should have never been introduced.

I really do not think the Paladin or Kronos should be buffed, they are quite fine.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Leto Aramaus
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#8 - 2015-11-13 03:59:00 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in our ASB's... William Shakespeare

The ASB is a truly abominable module that should have never been introduced.

I really do not think the Paladin or Kronos should be buffed, they are quite fine.


WOW I didn't think anyone else agreed...

HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#9 - 2015-11-13 04:12:13 UTC
I think I've seen more solo kronoses than anything else, actually.
And the pali seems to suffer more from using lasers than anything else; their greatest advantage being battles at ranges that a solo ship can't dictate.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#10 - 2015-11-13 04:48:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
The paladin is the only one that's ridiculously ineffective in PVP. The Vargur is great, so is the Kronos, Golems do okay too, but the paladin can't hit anything, doesn't do much damage and is super cap hungry.

It might be viable if it had a tracking bonus instead of an optimal bonus, but as it stand the only real PVP application of the thing is hitting structures and even then you're better off with a Golem by a huge margin.

I don't think CCP really understand that there's no way to mitigate the inability of large guns to track when you're both functionally immobile and reliant on your limited number of meds to provide you with the cap you need to run your tank.
Caleb Seremshur
Naked Oiled Bodybuilders
Parasitic Legion.
#11 - 2015-11-13 08:30:32 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
The paladin is the only one that's ridiculously ineffective in PVP. The Vargur is great, so is the Kronos, Golems do okay too, but the paladin can't hit anything, doesn't do much damage and is super cap hungry.

It might be viable if it had a tracking bonus instead of an optimal bonus, but as it stand the only real PVP application of the thing is hitting structures and even then you're better off with a Golem by a huge margin.

I don't think CCP really understand that there's no way to mitigate the inability of large guns to track when you're both functionally immobile and reliant on your limited number of meds to provide you with the cap you need to run your tank.


Not all ships are meant to be good at all jobs.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#12 - 2015-11-13 10:08:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
frankly all the fault lies with the asb. the asb needs to be changed or banned from fitting on these ship classes. once the asb is fixed than all the t2 battleships will be in line.



There is nothing wrong with ASB's. It's the only viable alternative against neuts atm besides passive shield tanking which the Marauders are terrible at.

I believe the Vargur and Golem are fine soley because they CAN fit ASBs and aren't completely cap dependent like the Kronos and Pally. Which is why I would propose that the Marauders receive a 100% cargo bay capacity increase.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#13 - 2015-11-13 13:38:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Not all ships are meant to be good at all jobs.

No, but all ships should actually be good at something unlike the paladin which is at best mediocre at everything. The paladin is the only marauder the basic design of which doesn't make sense.

My their nature marauders are immobile, which means they are totally dependent on the ability of their weapons to apply damage to targets of varying size across all ranges because they cannot dictate range to compensate for tracking, at all, this is particularly a huge deal for battleships because their guns have awful tracking. The Vargur and Kronos take this into account and have tracking bonuses the golem has an explosion velocity and a target painter bonus.

By contrast the Paladin has bonuses to optimal range and capacitor capacity.

The ships with the least tracking problems get tracking bonuses, the ship with the worst tracking problems does not. Not only that but instead of getting a second damage application bonus like every other marauder it instead gets a cap bonus that should just be built into the hull since you always get the full 25% extra cap anyway.

It's a badly designed ship that could be easily fixed.
Flyinghotpocket
Doomheim
#14 - 2015-11-13 13:57:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Flyinghotpocket
Daniela Doran wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
frankly all the fault lies with the asb. the asb needs to be changed or banned from fitting on these ship classes. once the asb is fixed than all the t2 battleships will be in line.



There is nothing wrong with ASB's. It's the only viable alternative against neuts atm besides passive shield tanking which the Marauders are terrible at.

So what do the armor marauder have against neuts? nothing. thats right. the Cap battery is crap

inb4 shield paladin

the asb was a flawed design, and only created for crapmatar ships that were lacking mids.

then they said well we need a armor asb too. lets limit it to 1, and make it crap.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#15 - 2015-11-13 15:00:55 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Not all ships are meant to be good at all jobs.

No, but all ships should actually be good at something unlike the paladin which is at best mediocre at everything. The paladin is the only marauder the basic design of which doesn't make sense.

My their nature marauders are immobile, which means they are totally dependent on the ability of their weapons to apply damage to targets of varying size across all ranges because they cannot dictate range to compensate for tracking, at all, this is particularly a huge deal for battleships because their guns have awful tracking. The Vargur and Kronos take this into account and have tracking bonuses the golem has an explosion velocity and a target painter bonus.

By contrast the Paladin has bonuses to optimal range and capacitor capacity.

The ships with the least tracking problems get tracking bonuses, the ship with the worst tracking problems does not. Not only that but instead of getting a second damage application bonus like every other marauder it instead gets a cap bonus that should just be built into the hull since you always get the full 25% extra cap anyway.

It's a badly designed ship that could be easily fixed.



The paladin is a great pvp ship. Set it on the field, push the button, and kill all incoming falconry. Tachs burn down falcons as fast as they land. The paladin isn't the high damage on the kb platform. They gave you a range bonus - use it. It was born to burn falcons and rooks off the field. Add a sensor booster and one of those passive targeters and burn them all!

If you're a falcon pilot, would you want to be on the field with a paladin? Heck no!
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#16 - 2015-11-13 15:19:01 UTC
I actually do have an anti-recon paladin myself. It just doesn't see any use because I also have a tachyon Navy Apocalypse which does basically the same thing but is more versatile and works as part of a fleet doctrine.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#17 - 2015-11-13 15:26:23 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
I actually do have an anti-recon paladin myself. It just doesn't see any use because I also have a tachyon Navy Apocalypse which does basically the same thing but is more versatile and works as part of a fleet doctrine.



But the paladin can't be jammed when in uber mode. That makes it far superior to your Napoc for anti falcon work.

You probably don't use it because it can't warp out while in uber mode. Big smileShockedBig smileP
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#18 - 2015-11-13 15:32:28 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in our ASB's... William Shakespeare

The ASB is a truly abominable module that should have never been introduced.

I really do not think the Paladin or Kronos should be buffed, they are quite fine.



ASB is quite the godsend for small groups that like to fight above their weight class. Don't get mad when 3 dudes dual boxing give your 15 man fleet a wedgie. Admire them.

All I'm saying is that it's perspective. It makes local shield tanks on cruisers/BC/command ships viable in pvp. I'd say some frigates are a bit OP w/ them and they are a bit underwhelming on most BS.

My group has taken a lot of fights we wouldn't have been able to because of ASB. Your poison / my cure.

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#19 - 2015-11-13 16:24:46 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
I actually do have an anti-recon paladin myself. It just doesn't see any use because I also have a tachyon Navy Apocalypse which does basically the same thing but is more versatile and works as part of a fleet doctrine.



But the paladin can't be jammed when in uber mode. That makes it far superior to your Napoc for anti falcon work.

You probably don't use it because it can't warp out while in uber mode. Big smileShockedBig smileP


Inability to warp really doesn't matter much if the fight is actually happening.

The navy Apoc can fit dual ECCM without compromising it's effectiveness and can receive reps at the same time, they also track better so they're more useful as a general fleet ship than the paladin is.

The kind of situation where I thought the paladin might actually be useful is against a kind of kitchen-skinky fleet with a low number of dps and logistics ships but multiple recons which used to be fairly common in highsec business. But in practice any fight that it's worth bringing a super slow battleship to usually has either enough DPS, enough neuting or lasts like an hout so local reps are unsustainable.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#20 - 2015-11-13 16:53:54 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in our ASB's... William Shakespeare

The ASB is a truly abominable module that should have never been introduced.

I really do not think the Paladin or Kronos should be buffed, they are quite fine.



ASB is quite the godsend for small groups that like to fight above their weight class. Don't get mad when 3 dudes dual boxing give your 15 man fleet a wedgie. Admire them.

All I'm saying is that it's perspective. It makes local shield tanks on cruisers/BC/command ships viable in pvp. I'd say some frigates are a bit OP w/ them and they are a bit underwhelming on most BS.

My group has taken a lot of fights we wouldn't have been able to because of ASB. Your poison / my cure.



The fifteen man fleet can use ASB fit ships as well.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

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