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A friendly suggestion for the next rounds of the Amarr championships

First post
Author
Skyler Hawk
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1 - 2015-11-08 20:05:59 UTC
Ban racial ECM mods.

That is all.
Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#2 - 2015-11-08 21:19:40 UTC
I agree on this front; the meta here is extremely powerful for anything but the largest Amarr ships, or T2 cruisers. In my case, we feared the meta so much we doubled down on it and only really lost because we lacked prop mods so we could deal with the Dragoons quickly.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu

Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
#3 - 2015-11-08 22:07:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Merdaneth
Tests and analyses indicated that ECM can be quite dominant in this tournament format.

In fact, for our first match, we fielded 12 ECM modules (out of 13 availabe midslots in our team), complete forgoing things like tracking disruptors on a Sentinel. Even though our enemies were flying high sensor strength ships (T2 Cruisers and T2 EAF mostly), they still won the match for us.

This is something that commentators also didn't seem to understand. "Why don't we see more TD's, they are good against Amarr ships" they asked themselves.

Well, it is because any number of TDs on one ship can be disabled by one ECM. That is besides disabling tackle, dps and sense of what is going. If you are flying frigs and you put in a TD and the enemy puts in ECM, you are going to lose. It it that simple.

We saw many ships compositions forgoing prop mods, tackle and other ewar and fitting exclusively ECM in mids. Simply because of its power.

I'm not saying that banning it is the solution, but just be aware that many small ship fights will be dominated by ECM. And the ECM mechanic is, as it stands, not particularly exciting for a neutral viewer, and similar for participants, since it effectively reduces ships to 'doing nothing'.

That is still my biggest issue with ECM. That mostly you are left twiddling your thumbs and hoping a die rolls the right way for you. Tracking disruptors are so much more enjoyable to use and to try and counter.

Damps, when used in a tournament kind of setup (with scripts), tend to have the same effect as ECM. They tend to neuter one side unless it specifically prepares a counter for it.
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#4 - 2015-11-08 22:52:28 UTC
Quote:
We saw many ships compositions forgoing prop mods, tackle and other ewar and fitting exclusively ECM in mids. Simply because of its power.


I think in the 2 midslot mirror matches the forgoing prop mod would have happened with the winning team regardless. The advantages gained by not having a propmod are pretty large in fitting terms in a mirror setup scenario. And only some of them are EW, it is a lot harder for your team to get spread out and defeated in detail if you are all sticking together.

But that said, the racial ECM being allowed was not in line with the other rules for the tournament that removed scripts from the other offensive EW. For TD and Damps, the offense/defense options were effectively even, whereas for ECM they were not. This made ECM far more relatively powerful than it would have been otherwise.

Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade

Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family

Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#5 - 2015-11-08 23:13:55 UTC
it should have been banned when they said 'amarr only ships'

just saying. thats like tournament design 101.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

Kelon Darklight
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#6 - 2015-11-09 04:53:07 UTC
I would love a ban on using ecm for these matches, helped test the winning slicer comp and without eccm those slicers were PURE CANCER. Just so much cheese. We thought about ecm and discarded it. Made for much more interesting matches.
edeity
Holy Amarrian Battlemonk
Local Is Primary
#7 - 2015-11-09 07:07:46 UTC
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
I agree on this front; the meta here is extremely powerful for anything but the largest Amarr ships, or T2 cruisers. In my case, we feared the meta so much we doubled down on it and only really lost because we lacked prop mods so we could deal with the Dragoons quickly.



Even in t2 shps with high RADAR skills our fleet was near permajammed. Tristan in a Vengeance literally fired 2 volleys total.

Implants to increase RADAR were against the rules....
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#8 - 2015-11-09 07:27:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Rodj Blake
ECM dominated our first sparring match so much that we thought to ourselves "no way CCP will be stupid enough to allow this" so we didn't train with it.

Then the rules were announced and the morning before the first round we basically decided to take advantage of CCP's mistake.

Having said that, ECCM and backups are a decent defence against it when used across the fleet. The fact that the pundits were surprised that we fitted it in our second fight says a lot about CCP's understanding of it.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#9 - 2015-11-09 07:34:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Gaven Lok'ri
Kelon Darklight wrote:
I would love a ban on using ecm for these matches, helped test the winning slicer comp and without eccm those slicers were PURE CANCER. Just so much cheese. We thought about ecm and discarded it. Made for much more interesting matches.


And they were fighting ECCM slicers in the actual match.

I think the deciding factor in the slicer match was that the winning team did a better job holding together positionally rather than the ECM.

Edit: Though again, I would *love* to see white noise taken out of at least the small ship matches next week!

Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade

Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#10 - 2015-11-09 12:21:55 UTC
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:
Kelon Darklight wrote:
I would love a ban on using ecm for these matches, helped test the winning slicer comp and without eccm those slicers were PURE CANCER. Just so much cheese. We thought about ecm and discarded it. Made for much more interesting matches.


And they were fighting ECCM slicers in the actual match.

I think the deciding factor in the slicer match was that the winning team did a better job holding together positionally rather than the ECM.

Edit: Though again, I would *love* to see white noise taken out of at least the small ship matches next week!


Unfortunately I have to agree with you Gaven. SoulLess Zealot's team's positioning was better than our's in general and mine in particular :(

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#11 - 2015-11-09 16:36:45 UTC
I'll chat with some other members of the team about the option of further restricting ECM, but I can already say that even with no extra restrictions the formats most vulnerable to ECM are behind us.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#12 - 2015-11-09 16:58:41 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I'll chat with some other members of the team about the option of further restricting ECM, but I can already say that even with no extra restrictions the formats most vulnerable to ECM are behind us.


M8, you have an all Amarr competition. We had a 95 sensor strength ECCMed Curse backed by an Imperial Navy Mindlinked all 5 pilot with Sensor Integrity II links that got jammed repeatedly over and over. Personally I was jammed over 50% of the entire match time in my Damnation.

Racial ECM is too strong in this format. It basically comes down to whoever gets jams off first wins. Flying in this environment was extremely frustrating and honestly felt like the opposing team had 2 free Rooks on grid.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not mad. I just don't want the rest of the tourney to be decided purely on how much the RNG faerie likes one person or another.

And if like the one pilot says, they basically decided to forgoe all mid slot items in favor of ECM, clearly something needs to be done.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Arsia Elkin
Elkin Family
Communion for Imperial Amelioration
#13 - 2015-11-09 18:03:55 UTC
I think a big problem with ecm in this format is that in most matches it calls for ecm to beat ecm. For example tracking disruption wOuld likely have been better than ecm in our all retributions match, but if we brought tracking disruption and they brought ecm then our tds wouldn't work a lot of the time. So because of that, we brought ecm. It was in every match. Although it probably wasn't the deciding factor in every single one, the fact that it showed up so often means its presence will heavily influence fittings and lead to a less creative and fun (both to watch and participate in) tournament.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin"

  • The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
#14 - 2015-11-09 18:35:09 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I'll chat with some other members of the team about the option of further restricting ECM, but I can already say that even with no extra restrictions the formats most vulnerable to ECM are behind us.


You have to consider how much you like the alliance tournament to resemble actual EVE PvP. Where prop mods (and tackle) on most smaller ships are more or less mandatory in PvP, in the current tournament meta you saw many small ships without any prop mod and tackle whatsoever. We saw double ECM Slicers, double ECM Retributions, triple ECM Zealots, quadruple ECM Curses. That doesn't resemble TQ PvP at all.

Double ECM Retri
https://zkillboard.com/kill/50068950/

Double ECM Slicer
https://zkillboard.com/kill/50067221/

Double ECM Dragoon
https://zkillboard.com/kill/50063754/

Quadruple ECM Curse
https://zkillboard.com/kill/50068047/

The current meta is like this:

1. Heavy ECM (most mids filled with racial ECM, plus ECM rigs and possibly low slots)
2. ECCM
3. Other (regular fits, might include some TD fits, some ECM etc)

A good way to counter heavy ECM is bring heavy ECM yourself, since heavy ECM is always useful. As you pointed out, to bring heavy ECCM, you have to be pretty confident that the enemy brings ECM, because it will be useless otherwise.

Even if you bring ECCM, it still is partially up to the roll of the dice. A sensor booster is a hard counter to a sensor damp, but ECCM is not a hard counter vs. ECM.

You also have to consider that mid slots are pretty rare among Amarr ships, and with mid slots at a premium, pressure is on getting an extra ECM above an extra ECCM (or two lowslot ECCM).

Also, ECM heavy fights are confusing for the public to see (and judging from the commentators, often confusing for them as well), shifts focus from pilot skill to RNG, and is boring for the participants.
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
#15 - 2015-11-09 18:46:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Merdaneth
Also, CCP Rise about the Slicer fight:

Quote:
I expect all of them to be fit super similar, microwarpdrives for sure


Zero microwarpdrives in the fight, heh.
Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#16 - 2015-11-09 19:14:18 UTC
A Slicer fight without ECM would definitely have been a dogfight for the ages.

But, there was ECM.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu

Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#17 - 2015-11-09 20:09:10 UTC
For our first match, we were all in tech 2 ships with the stronger sensor strength naturally, so we didn't bring ECM, as the replay plainly shows. Coupled with a command ship that could have brought links, it was decided that TDs was the better options. For round two against Elise Randolph, we basically used a double ECM no prop mod. It was either bring ECM or bring ECCM, thanks to the relatively low sensor strength of the Retributions and ECM is always better than ECCM.
Without ECM, I think we still would have won, but I am a little less sure on that. Still, as long as ECM is allowed, that is going to be the meta, since you know exactly what you want to jam.
The Caldari in me whines when I say this, but 'get rid of ECM.'

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.

Arsia Elkin
Elkin Family
Communion for Imperial Amelioration
#18 - 2015-11-09 20:26:19 UTC
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
For our first match, we were all in tech 2 ships with the stronger sensor strength naturally, so we didn't bring ECM, as the replay plainly shows. Coupled with a command ship that could have brought links, it was decided that TDs was the better options. For round two against Elise Randolph, we basically used a double ECM no prop mod. It was either bring ECM or bring ECCM, thanks to the relatively low sensor strength of the Retributions and ECM is always better than ECCM.
Without ECM, I think we still would have won, but I am a little less sure on that. Still, as long as ECM is allowed, that is going to be the meta, since you know exactly what you want to jam.
The Caldari in me whines when I say this, but 'get rid of ECM.'


We had ecm drones in the first round. They weren't as big of a part of our strategy as the ecm was in the second round, but they were there.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin"

  • The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Mitara Newelle
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#19 - 2015-11-09 20:32:22 UTC
I don't think any of us *wanted* to use ECM, but rather since they were allowed it would have been stupid not too. I don't care for ECM, it's not Amarrian, so I would be fine if it wasn't allowed for the upcoming weekend. Beating the dead horse, ECM is way out of balance with the other racial ewar as implemented.

Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Danmal
TYR.
Exodus.
#20 - 2015-11-09 21:21:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Danmal
1. There has always been a tourney meta, be that drones, damps, Marauders, missiles, or ecm. Complaining about one of them seems to me as good as complaining about the next one. E.g.: "They outrange us! We like brawling! CCPlz, nerf range!"

2. I flew in the Slicer match on the winning team's side. The opponent anticipated that we would bring ecm and fitted what was a hard counter to our setup. As somebody who flew on the other side said, they did not lose because of the setup but because of positioning/piloting. The understanding of the meta of both teams was equally strong (or they had intel from our practice), and our opponent next-leveled it. That leveled the playing field. Isn't part of the excitement of a tourney to understand the meta and know how to deal with it? They did.
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