These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next page
 

1 month in pvp
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Moose doing Moosethings
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2015-11-09 04:13:44 UTC
I've been at this for a month now and have acquired a lossboard filled with rifters and slashers to show for it.

The closest I've come to actually killing something was against a brawler fit tristan.
I learned from that fight that you can either outrun the drones or track with 250's but not both. And that swooping straight passed him for 0 r/s transversal only works 3 times before he's ready for it with heated sram/web.
I almost managed to kill a comet, but then his fleet showed up. No complaints. Gf's all around.

My question is twofold: Am I dying horribly because I'm using meta instead of t2? The strength differences between meta and t2 make me think that t2 is the minimum for solo pvp.
And
Are t1 frigates in general just not suited for solo pvp? In faction warfare, the game seems to be dominated by Comets, Hookbills, t3ds, some assault frigates, and the very occasional tristan.
Should I just fly Firetails or Wolves?


Taken together: Am I getting steamrolled, because I'm hopelessly outclassed the moment I undock?


Cheers,
Moose who does those things I do
Caladan Panzureborn
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2015-11-09 05:26:49 UTC
I've been at this for a month now and have acquired a lossboard filled with rifters and slashers to show for it.

Stop flying Rifter and Slasher, from what I've read and also my personal experience as a Minmatar capsuller, in the current meta they are crap.

The closest I've come to actually killing something was against a brawler fit tristan.
I learned from that fight that you can either outrun the drones or track with 250's but not both. And that swooping straight passed him for 0 r/s transversal only works 3 times before he's ready for it with heated sram/web.
I almost managed to kill a comet, but then his fleet showed up. No complaints. Gf's all around.

My question is twofold: Am I dying horribly because I'm using meta instead of t2? The strength differences between meta and t2 make me think that t2 is the minimum for solo pvp.

Yes, I think you realize this on your own but it's T2 drones, weps, and tank or go home in PvP. This is true 99% of the time

And
Are t1 frigates in general just not suited for solo pvp? In faction warfare, the game seems to be dominated by Comets, Hookbills, t3ds, some assault frigates, and the very occasional tristan.
Should I just fly Firetails or Wolves?

Yes, you are also realizing what I have come to find out. If you are in a T1 frigate, you will always be outclassed and outgunned. Those that are actively looking for fights fly Faction and Pirate frigates in FW and low sec pvp. Same goes for Destroyers, T2 or better. An exception is the Tristan it seems to be pretty OP compared to all other T1 frigates. The way ship classes work it's really futile to try and fight a lot of opponents. You have to make split decisions when someone pops on the d-scan and decide whether or not you have a chance to win otherwise you've got to run. [


Taken together: Am I getting steamrolled, because I'm hopelessly outclassed the moment I undock?

Yes. Read up on the most effective ships and fits in the current meta and use them. Make sure to get all the most important skills trained up and when in doubt, OVERHEAT EVERYTHING. Ignore the fits on EVE University wiki they are outdated garbage and not suitable for solo, FW, or small gang pvp.
It's taken me about 3 million SP and 2 1/2 months to get to a point where am I now consistently getting kills and not just being prey for the douchebags looking for easy kills. And even then I am still getting killed regularly because every little fit seems to have simple counters so you can kill a player, they can re-ship and come back with the needed counter and kill you easily ten minutes later. PvP is really not great in this game for that reason, the fits and ships are more important than strategy and player skill so please try not to take it too seriously. There are much better, more balanced PvP games out there.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2015-11-09 05:58:07 UTC
Yes, well ... the EVE dev approach to "balance" has traditionally been if a lot of people use a ship then its OP so halve its stats and remove a few slots.

Rifters were very popular a few years back and nano kiting slashers were also a thing so both got nerfed badly and never recovered.

The good and bad news for Minimatar is the Firetail is the worst of the Faction Frigates but as a result its also the cheapest - and its about to get a buff so maybe stockpile a couple and see how they go after the buff.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#4 - 2015-11-09 06:13:07 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Ignore Caladan Panzureborn. A lot of what he is saying is hyperbole, defeatist, and even outright lies (except for learning and utilizing "overheating"... that is a good thing to learn)

Moose doing Moosethings wrote:
The closest I've come to actually killing something was against a brawler fit tristan.
I learned from that fight that you can either outrun the drones or track with 250's but not both. And that swooping straight passed him for 0 r/s transversal only works 3 times before he's ready for it with heated sram/web.
I almost managed to kill a comet, but then his fleet showed up. No complaints. Gf's all around.

Don't "swoop" in and attack. Especially against a brawler-fit ship. You are essentially playing right into the other player's hands and leaving yourself vulnerable.

The general rule of thumb when it comes to "effective attack range" is to stay at the edge of your optimal range. In the case of projectiles, optimal range + 25 to 50% falloff range.

Pulling range makes it easier for slow-tracking weapons (like artillery and most other long range turrets) to maintain accuracy.
The tradeoff is that you will deal less damage. Especially so when you are deep into falloff range.

Moose doing Moosethings wrote:
My question is twofold: Am I dying horribly because I'm using meta instead of t2? The strength differences between meta and t2 make me think that t2 is the minimum for solo pvp.

I won't lie... Tech 2 stuff does increase your effectiveness by non-insignificant margins.

HOWEVER...

Tech 2 weapons won't make-or-break your ability to fight in all circumstances. You simply have to think of ways to get around your opponent's superior stats.

For example: In your case, don't try to match a brawler at close range. There, raw stats will generally matter more. But, if you employed "kiting" tactics (see: staying beyond the effective combat range of your opponent), you have more tactical flexibility and can dictate the fight.
The tradeoff with this tactic though is that it generally leaves the ship a little more flimsy than you would like and has lower margin of error (because you have to fit your ship more for speed and agility than gank and tank).

Moose doing Moosethings wrote:
Are t1 frigates in general just not suited for solo pvp? In faction warfare, the game seems to be dominated by Comets, Hookbills, t3ds, some assault frigates, and the very occasional tristan.
Should I just fly Firetails or Wolves?

They are VERY viable.

For reference... Navy Faction ships generally have 50% more HP (which, on a frigate, isn't all THAT huge) with an extra fitting extra slot, a little more CPU/PG, and a "tweaked" bonuses over regular Tech 1 ships.
Pirate Faction ships have largely the same benefits as Navy Frigates... but they have slightly "OP" bonuses that make them quite dangerous.

That may all seem like a lot... but it isn't insurmountable. They just have more options and tactical flexibility.

The real trick is to...
- know what tactics which ships commonly use
- understand the tactics you are trying to use
- fight those ships that you know your tactics have better odds against.
(NOTE: all of the above require experience and mentoring from other PvPers. Even if you want to be "soloist" you need to learn from somewhere... even the best had to be taught and learn from others)

Moose doing Moosethings wrote:
Taken together: Am I getting steamrolled, because I'm hopelessly outclassed the moment I undock?

You are inexperienced. Nothing more.

There is more to fighting in EVE than just "raw stats" (but those are always welcome too). Blink

How did you Veterans start?
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#5 - 2015-11-09 06:36:41 UTC
A quick glance at your killboard shows the following:

- the fits you use are slightly suspect in that they are either a bit off or just not going to work very well vs a majority of targets
- the ships and players you lose to are pretty much a "yeah, that was to be expected" kind of thing


The trick to getting kills is to learn how not to die, that sounds really backwards but it isn't. If you learn the basic game mechanics about alignment, gatecamps, timers, etc etc then you can make informed decisions on what to do. Then you have to learn the different ships, their setups and tactics to a point where you will know, beforehand, whether or not you stand a chance in the upcoming fight. If you deduce that you won't win or that your fit & tactics just isn't going to do too well against that target then you can avoid the fight. If you learn how to keep avoiding situations you can't handle you'll be alive long enough to stumble into a target and scenario that you CAN handle.

You have to understand the basic pvp tactics and how to counter them, there's more to it than that of course but a very basic "I'm a fast kiter and he's a slow brawler, I probably shouldn't get close to him" does help. Stuff like that does apply.


Lots of reading, watching Youtubes, learning, practising, chatting and lots of deaths :)
Azda Ja
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2015-11-09 06:47:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Azda Ja
Looking purely at the losses you have. I think the biggest factor is your fits and your choice of targets, and or what you got caught by. Attacking a Jackdaw or an Orthrus in a T1 frigate is unwise, seeing as they're designed to make frigates disappear. The fits you have aren't that bad, but they could use some work.

For starters, you're going to want to start using damage controls. There are popular ships and fits that forgo a DCU, but they're niche and require experience to make work since you have little margin for error. On a T1 frigate fighting in scram range, it's asking to lose. An exception is the Navy Slicer, which is commonly flown with 2 nano, an AAR (ancillary armor rep) and 2 heat sinks. Very squishy, but very fast and a lot of well projected DPS, needs to be flown skillfully however because you have next to no hit points.

T1 frigates however are perfectly fine for solo PvP, you just need to learn what you can reasonably engage and escape from. My mentor when i started is a magician with Atrons. He will catch and kill people in them very often. How? He knows what he's doing.

Here is a video describing some of the basics of EVE PvP.

Is T2 required? No, not at all. It is standard however (with good reason), and a good thing to shoot for, especially for weapon systems and tank modules. I say it's not required because I managed to get my first solo kill (T2 fit Comet) at about 5 weeks into the game with a T1 fit MWD longpoint Tristan. It was hard, almost lost tackle since my cap skills were awful and I didn't think to 'pulse' my MWD.

I won't lie, it's going to be hard when you start out, very very hard. It is not however just because of skill points. They help, and shouldn't be discounted, but the deciding factor in most situations is the fits being used, and who's flying them. Absolutely do not wait to get into PvP until you can T2 fit everything, that's silly and you'll still lose with your T2 fit when you're done waiting because you haven't learned how to use them.


Getting started in EVE is hard, PVP is especially unforgiving; it's also incredibly rewarding. Don't give up and keep at it.

o7

EDIT: Gregor the space dragon lives \o/. Thank him for the video I linked above, do it before he starts breathing fire.

Grrr.
Azda Ja
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2015-11-09 07:05:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Azda Ja
[Slasher, Newbie TD Brawler]

Damage Control II
200mm Steel Plates II

1MN Afterburner II
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I

Here's a slasher to try out. Don't fight missile ships in this, you're looking to control the fight with your speed, AB / Web, and of course the TD. Be sure to carry both scripts. If you're fighting something like an Incursus, don't try and face tank it, get out to about 5 km, neut him, and use the optimal range script in the TD, he'll be doing far less damage, and the neut will put a lot of pressure on his tank. If you're fighting anything with lasers, get within spitting distance and orbit, orbit, orbit as pulses have the worst tracking of the short range guns, same goes with anything using artillery or railguns.


Here is a Firetail that is very popular in FW:

[Republic Fleet Firetail, Dual Web Artillery Scram Kite]

Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste

X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
1MN Afterburner II
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Rocket

Small Anti-Explosive Pump I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I

Scram kite close range brawlers (described in the video). The 2 webs mean you can have near perfect tracking and control the range of the fight. The high Alpha strike of the 280s is particularly frightening (**** my pants the first time I fought one).

EDIT: Downgrade anything as needed. the T2 mods shown are what you're aiming for. You can have them all within a week, probably less.

Grrr.
Trevor Dalech
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#8 - 2015-11-09 07:36:50 UTC
It's perfectly normal to lose your first couple of hundred fights. I did.

On the point of t2 vs meta:

If you pit a meta fit brawler against a t2 fit brawler, obviously t2 will win. It is possible to win with t1 vs t2 though, you just have to think out of the box for a bit and fit your ship to be a perfect counter against a single other ship, then pick your fights. Kiting ships can be nice if you don't land at zero right into someone's webs. The use of ewar, damps, tracking disruptors, etc... can easily turn a fight against the right ship.

Last but not least:
Find a group to fly with. Two t1 fit frigates will take out many t2 fits.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2015-11-09 07:41:32 UTC
Honestly from the OP it sounds like you already know more about pvp than most 6 month old players I talk to. If you're having trouble, heres some things to think about.

1. Are you maintaining appropriate range/transversal for your ship (it sounds like you are).
2. Are you engaging targets that your fit can beat?
3. Is your fit reasonable for your ship?
4. Does your ship/fit have a wide enough engagement profile?

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2015-11-09 09:42:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Bastion Arzi
ShahFluffers wrote:
Ignore Caladan Panzureborn. A lot of what he is saying is hyperbole, defeatist, and even outright lies (except for learning and utilizing "overheating"... that is a good thing to learn)

Moose doing Moosethings wrote:
The closest I've come to actually killing something was against a brawler fit tristan.
I learned from that fight that you can either outrun the drones or track with 250's but not both. And that swooping straight passed him for 0 r/s transversal only works 3 times before he's ready for it with heated sram/web.
I almost managed to kill a comet, but then his fleet showed up. No complaints. Gf's all around.

Don't "swoop" in and attack. Especially against a brawler-fit ship. You are essentially playing right into the other player's hands and leaving yourself vulnerable.

The general rule of thumb when it comes to "effective attack range" is to stay at the edge of your optimal range. In the case of projectiles, optimal range + 25 to 50% falloff range.

Pulling range makes it easier for slow-tracking weapons (like artillery and most other long range turrets) to maintain accuracy.
The tradeoff is that you will deal less damage. Especially so when you are deep into falloff range.

Moose doing Moosethings wrote:
My question is twofold: Am I dying horribly because I'm using meta instead of t2? The strength differences between meta and t2 make me think that t2 is the minimum for solo pvp.

I won't lie... Tech 2 stuff does increase your effectiveness by non-insignificant margins.

HOWEVER...

Tech 2 weapons won't make-or-break your ability to fight in all circumstances. You simply have to think of ways to get around your opponent's superior stats.

For example: In your case, don't try to match a brawler at close range. There, raw stats will generally matter more. But, if you employed "kiting" tactics (see: staying beyond the effective combat range of your opponent), you have more tactical flexibility and can dictate the fight.
The tradeoff with this tactic though is that it generally leaves the ship a little more flimsy than you would like and has lower margin of error (because you have to fit your ship more for speed and agility than gank and tank).

Moose doing Moosethings wrote:
Are t1 frigates in general just not suited for solo pvp? In faction warfare, the game seems to be dominated by Comets, Hookbills, t3ds, some assault frigates, and the very occasional tristan.
Should I just fly Firetails or Wolves?

They are VERY viable.

For reference... Navy Faction ships generally have a 50% HP (which, on a frigate, isn't all THAT huge) with an extra fitting extra slot, a little more CPU/PG, and a "tweaked" bonuses over regular Tech 1 ships.
Pirate Faction ships have largely the same things as Navy Frigates... but they have slightly "OP" bonuses that make them quite dangerous.

That may all seem like a lot... but it isn't insurmountable. They just have slightly more options and tactical flexibility.

The real trick is to...
- know what tactics which ships commonly use
- understand the tactics you are trying to use
- fight those ships that you know your tactics have better odds against.
(NOTE: all of the above require experience and mentoring from other PvPers. Even if you want to be "soloist" you need to learn from somewhere... even the best had to be taught and learn from others)

Moose doing Moosethings wrote:
Taken together: Am I getting steamrolled, because I'm hopelessly outclassed the moment I undock?

You are inexperienced. Nothing more.

There is more to fighting in EVE than just "raw stats" (but those are always welcome too). Blink


^an excellent answer. take this advice

edit - after reading further pretty much every answer including and after the quoted is great advice.
Cherri Minoa
Serendipity Technologies Inc
#11 - 2015-11-09 10:08:50 UTC
You are getting into a lot of fights, analysing the results and taking advice.

You are doing it right.

"If I had been censured every time I have run my ship, or fleets under my command, into great danger, I should have long ago been out of the Service" - Horatio Nelson
Moose doing Moosethings
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2015-11-09 11:20:41 UTC
Thanks for all the replies, advice, and fits.
I guess I'll get to work learning what the strengths/weaknesses and common tactics are of the ships I run into.
That video was particularly helpful for explaining the Brawler v Kite v Scramkite concept that I'd had some trouble understanding and applying.
My short term goal is now to just get good at recognizing when I am definately beat before the fight starts.
Even if I don't win any fights for awhile, I won't be giving away easy kills anymore.

That said, I have 35 each of slashers and rifters that I don't expect to still have by the beginning of 2016 Blink
Hopefully, by then I'll have a handful of kills, a solid understanding of who beats whom, and enough proficiency with ship handling to be bad news when I start undocking in Firetails.


And a bit later, Dramiels. Twisted



7o,
Moosechacho
Raffael Ramirez
Alcohol Fuelled
#13 - 2015-11-09 11:35:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Raffael Ramirez
Moose doing Moosethings wrote:
Thanks for all the replies, advice, and fits.
I guess I'll get to work learning what the strengths/weaknesses and common tactics are of the ships I run into.
That video was particularly helpful for explaining the Brawler v Kite v Scramkite concept that I'd had some trouble understanding and applying.
My short term goal is now to just get good at recognizing when I am definately beat before the fight starts.
Even if I don't win any fights for awhile, I won't be giving away easy kills anymore.

That said, I have 35 each of slashers and rifters that I don't expect to still have by the beginning of 2016 Blink
Hopefully, by then I'll have a handful of kills, a solid understanding of who beats whom, and enough proficiency with ship handling to be bad news when I start undocking in Firetails.


And a bit later, Dramiels. Twisted



7o,
Moosechacho


Alright seems like it is a well kept secret that players can use the test server for PvP fitting/brawling exercises.
All ships and modules are dirt cheap so you can try and loose all you like, also get a training buddy to use as target/opponent.
If you are solo there are free for all sites in the test systems - there should be a forum post how you do it and the rules and guidelines for the server.

You will very quickly realize how you can kill things in your own weight class and how to pick fights you can win, I usually go there when a new ship class comes out or I took a break and need to relearn things.

I think the Devs will be happy in case you find a bug you can help them make the next version of EVE better - so everybody wins.


Enjoy!
Memphis Baas
#14 - 2015-11-09 12:49:47 UTC
Getting into a ship and actually PVP'ing is good, but you have to do homework too, and that consists of researching how to improve your frigate fittings, and of making a nice alphabetical ship list / database so you can tell at a glance, at the very least, the class of ship you're facing, and its (bonused) role. Because, as advised above, you need to pick your targets and adjust your tactics based on their fittings/ship, and include "get out" as a tactic when necessary.

EVE is a strategy game, it's chess: don't just push a pawn along to see how many pieces you can take with it; you need to strategize and think to win the game, as well as actually play and PVP (each fight).
Caladan Panzureborn
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2015-11-09 16:06:44 UTC
Ignore Shahfluffers. What a ****. You can disagree with what I say but calling me a liar?...Besides, you've got two freaking kills in the last five months. Both of which were helpless rookie ships. Good game bro. Glad to see people like you giving out such solid advice to new players.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2015-11-09 16:09:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Bastion Arzi
oh yeah how many kills do u have, like ever Caladan Panzureborn??

wait oh no its 6. and how many losses? let me see, oh yeah 65.

shah is like a bible of info compared to anything u have. i like the fact that ur trying to help someone, but i dont like the fact that u are ill informed, hypocritical and not expereinced enough to try to do so.

just look at shahs kb. in fact i cant beleive u had the audacity to call him out on it. and i thought things like this had stopped amazing me. lifes full of surprises i guess

edit - after looking at ur post again. confirmed that indeed i HAVE NOT made any mistake. its just stupid.
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
#17 - 2015-11-09 17:05:21 UTC
"Engagement profile" of the different Frigates you'd usually find in FW seems to be the crash course I'm on as well.

Although I'm hoping it's not just a simple paper-rock-scissors game. I've seen Enyos run from my Kestrel so maybe it is. Pirate I'm scary Twisted

@lunettelulu7
Memphis Baas
#18 - 2015-11-09 17:45:35 UTC
So, sometimes I post wrong info, and others happily correct me. And sometimes I put about 2 hours effort into making a nice detailed tutorial-like reply, complete with nice short paragraphs, links, and everything, and it's clear from the way the original poster replies that they completely TLDR ignored everything, maybe even foreign language couldn't translate.

Such is life.

The OP in this thread may follow the advice of either one of you, or completely ignore everything and switch to PVE because of his experiences.

Both of you have more PVP than me, and I posted a reply too; not arguing over who is right.

Why are you fighting?
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2015-11-09 17:50:18 UTC
are u referring to me?
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#20 - 2015-11-09 18:39:23 UTC
Caladan Panzureborn wrote:
Ignore Shahfluffers.

that's the single worst piece of advice i have ever seen in ncq&a by a fairly large margin.

Caladan Panzureborn wrote:
Besides, you've got two freaking kills in the last five months. Both of which were helpless rookie ships. Good game bro. Glad to see people like you giving out such solid advice to new players.


i guarantee you shah has forgotten more about eve than you or i are ever likely to know.

chill out, you got some stuff wrong, were corrected , get over it mate its nothing personal.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
123Next page